Taking possession of a customer's firearm

[JoelR]

I've got my first referral job (Yippee!). Issue is it is not someone I know and is for a firearm I do not own, know someone who owns, or can find a reasonable blue gun for - S&W X-Frame revolver. The customer wants a shoulder rig so I think it is my best interest from a quality and safety standpoint to take possession of the firearm so I can ensure fit and function. What do you all do in this situation? Do you simply take possession and part with a simple handshake, or are legal liability forms and the like filled out? I do not have a business license of any sort at this point as I still consider this a hobby but I'm thinking it may become wortwhile for situations like this. Thoughts?

[Lobo]

Know your state and local laws. No problems in most places, but in some there are legal requirements for any "transfer" of a firearm (notably California, where every transfer must go through a licensed dealer).

Suggest you issue a written receipt for the firearm including make, model, serial number and language spelling out that the purpose is for making and fitting a holster to that weapon and returning it to the customer. This could help prove that there was no intent to make a "transfer" (permanent) or convey ownership.

If the firearm becomes lost, stolen, or damaged be prepared to pay for it. Business insurance might provide some coverage, but your typical homeowners' policy will not cover business pursuits. Even my business policy has a $1,000 deductible (I also have and use a gun safe).

Alternative: meet with the customer and do the measurements and patterning with him present, then have him return for the fitting operation. As long as he is physically present there can be no hint of a "transfer".

[$$hobby]

I've got my first referral job (Yippee!). Issue is it is not someone I know and is for a firearm I do not own, know someone who owns, or can find a reasonable blue gun for - S&W X-Frame revolver. The customer wants a shoulder rig so I think it is my best interest from a quality and safety standpoint to take possession of the firearm so I can ensure fit and function. What do you all do in this situation? Do you simply take possession and part with a simple handshake, or are legal liability forms and the like filled out? I do not have a business license of any sort at this point as I still consider this a hobby but I'm thinking it may become wortwhile for situations like this. Thoughts?

Personally, i wouldnt take possession of the gun.

once you do, you are responsibe for it and possible for anything that may happen afterwards. you should be willing to pay for anything that maybe wrong once the owner takes it back.

even if you have a liability form, it doenst relase you from negligance, if they can proove it.

it maybe a hobby now, but you should think about what youre going to do the next time and after that. if it was me, i would be looking for an blue gun X frame.

[Johanna]

No matter what, when the customer brings you the gun, have him empty it on the table and then check it yourself to be sure it is unloaded. I would definitely have some sort of written agreement spelled out and signed by the customer if the gun were going to be left with me.

Johanna

[carljc72]

I competely agree with the written agreement. I have also had to do this when I first started and still do for a custom holster. Sometimes there is no other option than to use an actual gun. Make sure you speak with the client and walk him/her through the process and give them exact times that you need the gun. Give it back as soon as possible too.

Just a side note...Duncans Customs has an X-frame dummy on their list. They cost $45 plus shipping if that is an option for you.

Good luck,

Carl

[JoelR]

Thanks Carl, I had forgotten about them. I'm still not really making any money doing this, so that may be an option. All the leather being used and other tools and supplies have been paid for by previous aquaintances I have made holsters for. So, anything else I sell off this double-shoulder will go towards my next double-shoulder. At this moment I'm not even sure what a fair price is from someone like me (I do not consider myself anything but a hobbiest at this point - Still learning and reinforcing the basics).

Thanks all for the opinions. I'm well versed in the state laws so the legality of me taking temporary posession of a firearm is not a problem. Johanna, I think the very first message I ever read of yours (a few years ago when I first contemplated making my own holsters) was you ranting about the number of people dropping off firearms to you with a round in the chamber

I was mostly worried about the legal ramifications of if the firearm gets stollen (I have a safe, but they are not fool-proof), or the owner accuses me of damaging the firearm. I'm thinking at this point that I will make a standardized form for just such an occasion with an intent of temporary posession clause, a damage clause, and a current condition fill-in section. Wonder if Legal Zoom is watching this...

[JoelR]

Duncan's Customs has the exact model and barrel length of the customer's gun, so maybe I'll just save myself a stress headache and go that route...

[K-Man]

To a certain extent, you all are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. There are legal ramifications in a couple of states, but if you do your research, you'll know what that entails.

In nearly every instance, merely taking possession of a gun in the course of business, i.e., to make a holster, does not transfer ownership. Ownership is transfered to the holstermaker when the gun is shipped from another state to an FFL where the holstermaker resides. Ownership is then transferred back to the original owner when you ship the gun and holster back to an FFL in the owner's state.

If you're doing a face to face transfer, a receipt for the gun(s) is recommended. You don't need a 12-page legal document (unless your particular state/county/city requires it). I've taken possession of guns in excess in value of $10,000 in order to make holsters. If you're a business, you should have insurance coverage for loss/damage of such property. If you're a sole proprietor, working out of your home, odds are your homeowner's insurance won't cover it. You might consider a "rider" on your homeowner's policy that covers the loss or damage to firearms.

Common sense is the key here. Possession of the gun in order to make the holster should really only be for a very short period of time anyways. Take due care of the gun while it's in your possession and you'll find it's not as big of a deal as some are trying to make it out to be.

Edited October 7, 2009 by K-Man

[Lobo]

To a certain extent, you all are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. There are legal ramifications in a couple of states, but if you do your research, you'll know what that entails.

In nearly every instance, merely taking possession of a gun in the course of business, i.e., to make a holster, does not transfer ownership. Ownership is transfered to the holstermaker when the gun is shipped from another state to an FFL where the holstermaker resides. Ownership is then transferred back to the original owner when you ship the gun and holster back to an FFL in the owner's state.

If you're doing a face to face transfer, a receipt for the gun(s) is recommended. You don't need a 12-page legal document (unless your particular state/county/city requires it). I've taken possession of guns in excess in value of $10,000 in order to make holsters. If you're a business, you should have insurance coverage for loss/damage of such property. If you're a sole proprietor, working out of your home, odds are your homeowner's insurance won't cover it. You might consider a "rider" on your homeowner's policy that covers the loss or damage to firearms.

Common sense is the key here. Possession of the gun in order to make the holster should really only be for a very short period of time anyways. Take due care of the gun while it's in your possession and you'll find it's not as big of a deal as some are trying to make it out to be.

Personally, I thought that this member raised a valid question on a point that merits some consideration. Depending upon where a person lives the laws regarding firearms possession and transfer can be quite strict. While "common sense is the key here" for most of us, for someone living in Massachussetts, California, Chicago, and several other locations with onerous gun laws the situation might just be quite serious.

Most criminal cases require a showing of criminal intent to support a conviction. However, there are also many statutes that contain "strict liability" offenses for which no showing of criminal intent is required; prima fascia evidence of a violation can support a conviction without regard to the intent of the party or parties involved.

What might constitute a "transfer" of a firearm in one jurisdiction might be considerably different in another jurisdiction.

Also, the issue of responsibility for the property of another under one's possession or control can't be taken too lightly either. If there is a business transaction involved, and there is no applicable business insurance policy in place, the individual is on the hook for loss or damages. Even when there is an insurance policy, there will usually be a deductible amount for which the policy holder is responsible before any claim amount will be paid.

Where I live we can transfer firearms freely between individuals (subject to applicable laws restricting convicted felons, fugitives, illegal aliens, etc, etc, etc), so this is not much of an issue on its face. However, I have taken steps to preserve and protect the property of others under my control, including insurance coverage and a good safe, and I avoid being in that position of responsibility/liability whenever there is another way to get the job done.

We may not need a "12 page legal document" in every instance, but I don't think that this concern can be dismissed so easily.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Lobo

[katsass]

To a certain extent, you all are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. There are legal ramifications in a couple of states, but if you do your research, you'll know what that entails.

In nearly every instance, merely taking possession of a gun in the course of business, i.e., to make a holster, does not transfer ownership. Ownership is transfered to the holstermaker when the gun is shipped from another state to an FFL where the holstermaker resides. Ownership is then transferred back to the original owner when you ship the gun and holster back to an FFL in the owner's state.

If you're doing a face to face transfer, a receipt for the gun(s) is recommended. You don't need a 12-page legal document (unless your particular state/county/city requires it). I've taken possession of guns in excess in value of $10,000 in order to make holsters. If you're a business, you should have insurance coverage for loss/damage of such property. If you're a sole proprietor, working out of your home, odds are your homeowner's insurance won't cover it. You might consider a "rider" on your homeowner's policy that covers the loss or damage to firearms.

Common sense is the key here. Possession of the gun in order to make the holster should really only be for a very short period of time anyways. Take due care of the gun while it's in your possession and you'll find it's not as big of a deal as some are trying to make it out to be.

I'll toss in my two cents here just because all I make are custom items. If a customer wants a holster to fit a specific firearm, modified in a specific way, to be carried in a specific way and/or for a specific purpose, that's what I do. Something that he cannot buy in the local gun shop. Most are for LEOs or referals from LEOs, as I am a retired LEO myself. That said, I meet with the customer and take an initial drawing of the firearm and take all necessary measurements and list the requirements. I advise that I will need to have the weapon in my possesion for a short time at a later date to mold the product. Many times the customer will tell me to just take the gun and call him when the thing is done. In that case the customer gets a reciept that states "deposited with KATSASS LEATHER for holster construction", I tag the gun and it goes into the safe. I live in a desert area of California and one must be aware of the state, county and local laws...as stated by K-Man, BUT also be aware of the general ATTITUDE of law enforcement. I find that the younger kids in the profession now aren't too familliar with firearms in general, and may even consider that those that own guns for hunting, target shooting and even home defense may be a little "shady". Hell, the last time I looked there was still a law on the books (Health and Safety Code, I believe) that, under the letter of the law, makes it a felony (possible time in state prison) to fart in a movie theater! All this boils down to is that if law enforcement wants you, they can work out something to bite you with and anyone can sue you for anything. I have turned away a customer just because I had a bad feeling about the guy. Mike

[DCKNIVES]

I agree with Mike.I do one off customs as well, so I usually need the gun as replicas aren't available.I have never any issues with customers leaving thier guns, and its only for a couple of days anyway.Dave

[Shorts]

I don't sweat using a customer's gun. What I don't like is the actually dropping off/picking up process. I don't have a storefront so that means they have to come here to the house or I have to meet them in the area. I want to make sure that no matter where I am, if I'm meeting with a customer I have to present a professional and competent foot forward. It puts them at ease. I know they're probably a bit nervous leaving their baby with someone else. I am the same way.

I think it goes without saying that once a customer hands me his gun it is now my responsibility and I will handle it as if it were my own. As for being handed a loaded firearm, that's why whenever you pick up any firearm you are suppose to check the chamber and clear it for yourself before doing anything else. Rules are Rules and you don't neglect them just because you're not at the range or out on the land. A loaded gun shouldn't be a surprise or a scare; it should be a reassurance to you and the due diligence you place on firearms handling. Our guns are always loaded. I'm sure those unfamiliar with them would be more than surprised and shocked about that. But to us it isn't out of the ordinary.

A written receipt sounds like a good idea to give to a customer in exchange for his/her firearm. Hand them one if your business cards as well. Give them a description of the process and an estimate of how long it may take. I'm fairly laid back in my views to how complicated or regulated this should be. In small instances, things happen. If that's the case, make it right. It could be an expensive endeavor. But it shouldn't take an act of an incompetent congress to do it.

[JoelR]

Well, here is some backround for Pennsylvania:

It is unlawful to lend, give, or otherwise transfer a handgun unless exempted by law or by following the procedure previously described [through a licensed dealer or county sheriff, between active LEOs, immediate family members, etc.]. Exempted is a person who receives the handgun and has a license to carry or who is engaged in a Pennsylvania Game Commission or NRA hunter safety, firearm training, or competition program or who is engaged in hunting or trapping. Also exempted is the loaning or giving of a handgun to another person who will remain within the transferor's dwelling or place of business, a transfer to carry out a bequest or intestate succession, and a person under 18 who is under the direct supervision of a responsible person at least 21.

That all being said, without my CCW, it is technically illegal for me to take temporary posession of another person's handgun in Pennsylvania. So, this goes to LOBO's point of "Know your local and state laws".

Another point to consider, althogh VERY rare, what happens if the person you have taken temporary posession from either dies or becomes otherwise incapacitated/inelegible to take back posession of their handgun (incarceration, PFA order, hospitalization, etc). You COULD then become legally required to ensure that the handgun is given to another individual who has the legal right to posses it - within reason. Obviously, you would have no knowledge of a restraining order issued against one of your customers unless you were visited by a LEO to take posession of the handgun (and I would very much prefer to have something in writing stating that you followed the laws with regards to the temporary transfer to hand to the officer if asked).

Yes, I know I am picking at straws, but there can be very real legal ramifications to taking temporary posession of another's handgun. Hence, the reason I began the discussion. Wanted to see what others had come up with.

Oh, and my Jaw-Drop was due to the neglegence of the firearm owner. They should assume the receiving party is incompetent and ensure the handgun is unloaded before handing it over. I would not hesitate in checking the chamber after being handed a firearm even if it was just checked by the person previously in posession. You know why S&W put an internal decocker in their M&P line? Police chief's were tired of repairing holes in their ceilings from "unloaded" Glocks being disassembled for cleaning... Well, that's the rumor anyway...

Edited October 8, 2009 by JoelR

[Lobo]

You are not "picking at straws", sir. You are following a course of inquiry so as to protect yourself from unnecessary legal concerns.

There are overly-aggressive LEO's, as well as prosecutors, who might put you into the position of needing a lawyer, a bail bondsman, and very deep pockets to support them. Why let that happen when it can so easily be avoided?

Even as a retired cop I do not expect any public official to act reasonably, logically, or even sensibly in every case.

Best regards.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

You know why S&W put an internal decocker in their M&P line?

To cater to those with incompetent gun handling skills....

[Shorts]

To cater to those with incompetent gun handling skills....

No no, it's for those 'professional enough'

[JoelR]

Thank you all for your insites. As I really did not start this discussion with the intent of discussing the LEGALITY with regards to local and state laws and lending/loaning/temporarilly transfering handguns the conversation was well appreciated. I believe after reviewing all points that I will simply come up with a sheet that acts as receipt for the owner and acknowledging that they voluntarily loaned the firearm for the purpose of having something custom make for it. Something like:

I, the undersigned, acknowledge that a firearm recognized as _______________________(make and model) posessing the serial number __________ was temporarily loaned to ___________________ with the express purpose of designing a custom leather holster and/or other related accessories. I acknowledge that I am the current legal owner of the above firearm. I have confirmed that ______________________ posesses a current license to carry permit issued by the state of Pennsylvania and is therefore legally allowed to take temporary posession of said firearm under current Federal and State laws.

(sign)____________________________________ (date)__________ (print)________________________________

(firearm owner)

(sign)____________________________________ (date)__________ (print)________________________________

(maker)

[katsass]

You are not "picking at straws", sir. You are following a course of inquiry so as to protect yourself from unnecessary legal concerns.

There are overly-aggressive LEO's, as well as prosecutors, who might put you into the position of needing a lawyer, a bail bondsman, and very deep pockets to support them. Why let that happen when it can so easily be avoided?

Even as a retired cop I do not expect any public official to act reasonably, logically, or even sensibly in every case.

Best regards.

LOBO, I couldn't agree with you more! Back when I started in Law Enforcement we seldom had more than 7 men on shift to cover the 2250 square miles of sparsely inhabited desert. You had better use some common sense, reason and logic when dealing with a situation. Now the kids have to call in a 'tracker' to follow footprints thru the sagebrush a quarter mile. It was time to get out...after 35 yrs. Mike

Edited October 8, 2009 by katsass

[gunmaker]

Regardless of your state laws, federal law prohibits receiving a firearm across state lines assuming you're not a licensed firearms dealer/manufacturer.

Licensed firearms dealers can receive shipped firearms from clients anywhere in the US and can return directly to them after work is done without the owner having to ship through a dealer in their state.

Don't ever try to mail a pistol.

[Steve75]

I have been handling firearms sense I was 7 years old. My Dad taught me from the very beginning if I was handing a firearm to him that he expected the action to be open, or the cylinder to be flipped out of the frame. He taught me so well that I will not accept a weapon in any other manner. This was reinforced at the Police Academy when I surrendered my sidearm for inspection.

As to the idea of accepting possession of a weapon for the purpose of constructing a custom holster-not something I would do. I like the idea of getting the initial drawing and dimensions as Mike said. When it is time to form the holster to the weapon I would make a time when the person could come over with the pistol and allow the fitting work in his presence. If that is not possible then I would find a replica of the weapon to complete the project. I like being a law abiding home owner to much to risk having a person's pistol even over night. This is my .02 worth, but then I am only getting into this as a hobby at this point.

[Imapeopleperson]

Im with Shorts. don't sweat it.

[Pkay]

You should worry we are not even allowed to own a hand gun in the UK. A few years ago I made a holster for a 45 magnum and I admit I was quite worried about having it in my shop.

[JoelR]

Pkay, always like hearing from those across the pond to make me glad of our (current) rights in the US. I've taken possession of numerous handguns since this thread was started, including those of local LEOs, so my concerns have waned a bit, but it still sticks in the back of my mind. After all, we have no idea how the firearms we are holding were acquired. Granted, most looking for custom work are honest individuals.

Pkay, always like hearing from those across the pond to make me glad of our (current) rights in the US. I've taken possession of numerous handguns since this thread was started, including those of local LEOs, so my concerns have waned a bit, but it still sticks in the back of my mind. After all, we have no idea how the firearms we are holding were acquired. Granted, most looking for custom work are honest individuals.

Sorry, double post from the phone...

[camano ridge]

Well, I am not across the pond. I am in Washington state. We have a new law that any exchange of a firearm requires a background check. If you read the law and take it literaly. If I hand you a gun just to look at and I did not do a background check first I just comitted a misdemeanor, when you hand it back to me you comitted another one if you did not do a background check on me. Good thing I have lots of dummy guns.

Edited February 13, 2015 by camano ridge

[JoelR]

If you read the PA law literally, i can own a rocket launcher and C4...