SIEGEL OF CALIFORNIA...

[SCOUTER]

I few weeks ago while reading some posts here I found out about Siegels of California, I went to there website and was impressed so I placed an order. About a week later I get part of my order and nothing to indicate that the other items were backordered. I was livid. I called their customer service number and they said that this was standard operating practice for them. I asked them "How is it that they have been in business for so many years?" I was still upset so I called Steve Siegel himself I told him that I ordered from his business because he is a leather supplier not a craft store who sells leather on the side, I don't want to hear that half my $170 order is out of stock! If you don't have it don't advertise it on your website. Well, after apologizing he assured me that that was being corrected as we speak. A week later I sent in another order and guess what! Yep, partial order shipped with no explanation.

If you are going to order from Siegel's make sure you don't NEED the item!

[wolvenstien]

Call him back and bitch some more..... I dont do business with places like that.... I get half my order, i am automatically assuming that I got screwed... You need to cal him back, tell him it happened again, you gave him a second chance because he said the issue was fixed, and apparently the folks down there that fill the orders either didnt get the memo, or just dont care what he says, they are going to do it their way regardless....

[Mike]

Call him back and bitch some more..... I dont do business with places like that.... I get half my order, i am automatically assuming that I got screwed... You need to cal him back, tell him it happened again, you gave him a second chance because he said the issue was fixed, and apparently the folks down there that fill the orders either didnt get the memo, or just dont care what he says, they are going to do it their way regardless....

I like to know when something is backordered. My last order from somewhere else was a partial order. I called and was told the items were backordered. It would have saved both me and the company time and money if they had just told me they were backordered.

Is it frustrating when items are out of stock? Yes. But it happens. It is very hard to correctly predict demand and keep adequate inventory. The leather store may also be backordered with the manufacturer. I know some items only have a single manufacturer. The reseller is at their mercy. (Sometimes, of course, the reseller drops the ball.)

So will I continue to purchase from the company who made me call them to find out the status? Yes. I hope they get their invoices/packing lists straightened out so I can see what was backordered and I hope the stock is replenished soon but I like the store and usually they get things right.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike

[Regis]

I had same bad experience when I got about a 1/4th of oder I called in from their year end special. That was my very last order from them. I really liked the way Hidecrafters sent an e-mail confirming what was shipping but last couple times I called in order, they didn't have the items. I've had good service from Springfield and TLF. Those in areas where they can go pick up are fortunate. I think if I stepped up from hobby, I'd have to go with Ohiotravelbags, Weaver, and W&C.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Regis

[wolvenstien]

Being back ordered is one thing, and is expected on occasion.... but send along a not with the package telling your customers that half the order is not included because it is on back order and that the customer will not be charged until the items are in stock ready to be shipped.

I deal with an electronics supplier and I placed an order for a soldering iron, some solder and some liquid flux.... everything arrived except for the flux, and on the invoice was clearly stated that the flux was on back order and that I would not be charged for it until it was ready to be shipped.... They finally got it in stock 4 months later and I got a package with a bottle of liquid flux in it.... LOL But they let me know, I did not need to contact them to find out where it was...

[Timbo]

Welcome to the way Seigel does business. I have ordered many times from them and usually end up very frustrated with what I get. Yes, it is what I ordered but only part of it. On a recent order, the awl haft was charged to me at full price (13.00) when it was on sale for 5 something. Didn't get the awl blade, nor was it on the order. Also ordered 5 soft rolled horse butts and got one, and it was useless as it had a huge black mark right down the center. I sent in 2 emails via the "contact us" link on there website and never got a response. Finally this week I got a BS email about the lucky 18 winner and I sent in a really smart aleck response to it. Well.......seems that Steven Seigel himself sends these emails out so he got my response and wondered what the problem was. So I spelled it out for him exactly what had happened. The next day he sent the email back to me and cc'd it to somebody named Christina and told her to send me 6 horse butts for free. Haven't gotten them yet but we'll see.

They are a good business and somebody there does care, but it is just maddening to deal with the frustration of ship short orders.

Hang in there Scouter they will eventually take care of you if you let them. You might give them a call too.

Tim

[jsutterby]

Same experience here. I have ordered from them several times in the past and it was typically quickly shipped, although they usually were out of one or more items. My last order was placed in the first week of Dec. First they lost my email, so I faxed it, then hadn't heard a word so I called a few days ago and was told many items were out/backordered and someone would call back to confirm details. Still haven't heard a word. It is disappointing to me, as a quick call or note would help let me know they care about the order.

Hidecrafters has typically been out of some items when I order there as well. Maybe its just me, but it seems like this issue has gotten worse in the last couple of years.

[wolvenstien]

I understand that these places can only keep x amount of stock... that is understood... and now with hidecrafter cutting inventory by half now since the buy out it is going to be worse for them with "back ordered" inventory. Stores like Tandy can send an order to any of 50 stores and if the store is out of an item, they can get it shipped from another store... SOC and HC cannot do this because they have only one building.... So... they need to be more thoughtful of the customers and be more customer committed to retain the customers instead of pissing them off and acting as if they do not care if you remain a customer or not by how they deal with you and your order. I might be an a**hole, and even though I am a penny pincher, I expect a certain level of customer service anywhere I spend money. I especially like to spend my money (for the best deal) locally at a place where the money will stay local, but I cant do that all the time, so i will venture out, but I still expect good service from the place I do choose to spend my money with.

[whinewine]

I've always had good luck with Siegels. When something doesn't show up in the package, I assume that it has been backordered. If I'm really, really concerned because I need something, I call to find out when the item is expected. I mean, my God, the call is FREE! It's not like I've been stiffed.

What pisses me off is when I call a company to order something, they tell me what I want to hear & then never send the items & deny ever having received the phone order... I've never had that problem with Siegels.

Try walking into a tandy's for stuff that's on sale. Very often much of the merchandise is gone already, & you've spent & used how much??? in gas both ways at $3.+++ a gallon only to find out that stuff is gone or will not be available ever again because it's discontinued & that's why it's on sale... That's a hell of a lot more expensive than a FREE PHONE CALL.

[abn]

It's true that Tandy isn't the cheapest supplier on the planet, but their prices aren't bad either if you're a member of their Wholesale Club. I've been dealing exclusively with Tandy's Richmond store for five years, and during that time there's only been one time they didn't have what I needed in the store. (And in that instance, they were able to get it within 3 days.)

The problem is that some of us really need what we order when we order it. Especially hobbyists who don't have a fully stocked shop with thousands of pieces of hardware, multiple hides, etc. Under those circumstances, it's nice to deal with a company that has most everything it advertises in stock and ready to ship.

-Alex

[wolvenstien]

Whine, I agree about the discontinued sales...

But on the subject of the SOC back order stuff.... you have delt with them for a while.... Had I never read or partisipated in this thread and placed an order with them and only got a part of the order, I would be pissed if there wasnt an explanation in the package. Yeah, the call is free, but that a call I should not need to make. How hard is it to add a note to a package when you are filling an order? "This order has items that are on back order and will be shipped shortly". They can have a stack of pre printed slips sitting on the packing table and when they have a box going out with an incomplete order, just grab a slip and add it to the package... customer get the package, there are no questions... No "did they charge me for everything but forget to send me everything?"

[Johanna]

One of the staff members has sent an email to Steven Siegel alerting him of this thread. It's not fair to run down a company in public w/o trying to resolve it on an individual basis first, so let's let SCOUTER notify Siegels of the problem before any more is said, pro or con, about the company's policies. SCOUTER, please post back to this thread when you have had a chance to discuss this order w/ Steven Siegel, and let us know how it worked out!

Thanks everybody!

Johanna

[Elton Joorisity]

Edited January 11, 2008 by Elton Joorisity

[whinewine]

Whine, I agree about the discontinued sales...

But on the subject of the SOC back order stuff.... you have delt with them for a while.... Had I never read or partisipated in this thread and placed an order with them and only got a part of the order, I would be pissed if there wasnt an explanation in the package. Yeah, the call is free, but that a call I should not need to make. How hard is it to add a note to a package when you are filling an order? "This order has items that are on back order and will be shipped shortly". They can have a stack of pre printed slips sitting on the packing table and when they have a box going out with an incomplete order, just grab a slip and add it to the package... customer get the package, there are no questions... No "did they charge me for everything but forget to send me everything?"

I agree, but it's such a small thing to get upset over, IMO, & yes, a note along with your packing order could be included. But if you really need something, you need to ask, upfront, if the item is in stock. If they say, well, it's very low, or out at the moment, then look elsewhere. Easy to do. It's just common sense. When I do shows, sometimes things you don't expect to sell take off & you sell out very quickly, & visa versa. This is something that you really can't anticipate all the time & it does happen. Should someone get pissed because his/her buddy got the last 'widget' I happened to have at that show? Hell, no... grow up, place a backorder [& yes, I will collect the money upfront beforehand- unlike Siegels, who get it when they ship the item] & act in a mature manner.

And, BTW, this is Siegels' big end of the year sale, with an additional 10% off everything in that sale right now. Are they gonna run out of stuff? Well, DUH!

[bruce johnson]

I am probably not going to change anyone's mind here, but my 2 cents. I have been a Siegel customer for several years. In that time, in a particularly trying time in my life Siegels did something for me personally that has pretty well shown me what kind of caring people they are from top to bottom. I will be a customer until one or the other us close our doors.

That said, the issue is back orders. Yep, I get from them too. I also get them from every other supplier. I have ordered from one of the above mentioned great suppliers and get zipper tape, top stops, and bottom stops. I need them by Friday so I can spend the weekend putting gussets together and assembling a bunch of planners. The zipper slides are backordered I find out when I open the box Fri. afternoon, at anyplace within 150 miles driving distance. I order from another supplier mentioned. I fill out my order to make the minimum with checkbook inserts. Ordered something like 25, they ship 23. A month later I get the other 2, along with a statement for under a dollar for the inserts, a minimum order surcharge, and about $6 for shipping. They stuck them in an envelope and mailed them for about 50 cents. I order from yet another from the list of folks above and get a full side with a forklift track the length of the side, yep it was sold as tannery run, run over at the tannery. Want to spend a fun time on the phone, talk to anyone about a return there. Order thread for top and bobbin and get two way dissimilar shades of brown neither one the color they show in their catalog. Ordered a set of edge bevelers from yet another place mentioned, I get edge creasers. I gave them THEIR catalog number, and that was on the packing slip also. I paid for shipping and was expected to pay for return shipping. I need some rigging rings, 4" bronze, a big tree and supply outfit is shipping them along with some other supplies. Friday comes, the saddle is sitting here for the re-rigging, and no rings in the box, they are held up somewhere and backordered. I am a second business. I work from 4:00 am until time to feed and go to work, then at night and weekends. When I need something, I need it too. Most of the time I need to be a better inventory manager too.

These are all reputation places who have been in business a while. They are going to have problems with supplies and orders at times. I don't run a website or catalog business, but I expect that it is not a simple deal to change a site to reflect a particular out of stock item. They are dealing with someone bigger than them keeping them supplied. Little things like short supplies, bigger demands in China, clearing customs, container off loading schedules, blizzards, refused orders due to quality, all affect our suppliers. They would like nothing more than to have no backorders also. Unless they are profiting from shipping and handling charges, they are losing money too.

I guess I learned a while back that I ask if everything is in stock no matter who it is. After a few experiences, it just is prudent with everyone. Moreso if I am out. Sometimes they don't know. The order taker is on the phone and the puller is in the warehouse. They have 12 sitting on a pallet, and the other phone rep just took an order for 11. Establish a relationship with the rep, and tell them you want to know about backorders, what you want for quality, what shape you need for the side (long and skinny for reins, or deep for bags, etc). At Siegels, you are talking to a rep who has probably spent time pulling orders in the warehouse and knows what you are talking about back there. I would much rather get personal and know the name of the person I am ordering from than hit keys anyday. People complain about "being a number" and then order by fax or internet when they have a telephone number. Maybe I am too old for this deal.

[Art]

Yes, I have had problems with Siegel's, and Tandy, and Weaver, and Hidecrafter, and many others. Well, supply problems are just the nature of any goods business, so get used to it. I have never received a back order notice from any but a mom and pop business where they are doing the ordering, selling, and shipping personally. With Tandy, I usually talk to the store manager who KNOWS his stock and usually his order leads, no problem there, he tells me over the phone if something is out. Only in very large and electronically sophisticated companies like MSC or McMaster-Carr will the websites have inventory tracking and that is because they are trying desperately to push business to electronic for economy in personnel. None of the leather supply companies are at that level of sophistication on the web, in years to come maybe, but not now. Weaver is the closest to electronic bliss, but they don't use a website, you talk to someone who uses the computer. Weaver is probably the best in order land. They can generally tell you if something is out and when it will arrive (they give long dates too, it usually gets in before they said it would), and if through faults in inventory something is out of stock, I get phone calls as to do I want to leave it on back order or cancel. The last few orders I got from Hidecrafter (before the sale) probably 10% of my order was filled. I still use them for videos etc and am waiting for their corporate life to get back to normal and for them to find their place in the leather world. Siegel I seldom have a problem with, but I use them for leather, that is what they do best, and I talk to them about the order and they know what I want and that's what I get. On the year end or other big sales, expect out of stock on a lot of stuff, it's a sale! But if you NEED something, tell them, let them know you're waiting for it, and see what they'll do.

I know it is easy to take it slow and use the computer, and the fact that you are on leatherworker.net tells me you are computer savvy or at least trying to get there. But as far as ordering goes............

USE THE PHONE

You have to ramp up your people skills and just pick up the phone and call. When you order something you need badly, ask if it is in stock, if not ask when it will get there, if the taker doesn't know, ask to speak to someone who does. Steve Siegel, Ron Morgan, Paul Weaver, and Everyone Else want you to get what you need, it is really what they live for, any if it is not right, they want to hear about it even more, no BS, they really do.

And if you get good service, product, or just a warm fuzzy feeling, let them know. The person on the other end of the phone is not a machine, they're just like us and a little personality can lighten their day and ours too.

Art

[bcurrier]

So, Bruce - bottom line: who do you like in addition to Siegels?

I agree with everything you said, BTW. I worked as a purchasing expediter in college for a while and saw all that and more. My favorite were the suppliers that always undershipped exactly 10% of the order, which is allowable under most industrial bulk purchasing contracts. On the flip side, the company I worked for (which I won't name), always took the 10 day payment discounts, but put invoices on the 90 or 120 day pay schedules. No wonder we had supplier problems ...

Most suppliers are well-intentioned and will address issues as they come up ... but not all. The only thing I'd add is that you often get a better response, and better relationship, when there's give and take on both sides. You might get asked, for example, if you can accomodate a delay so the supplier can fill an immediate need for another customer. Sometimes you get comped, sometimes not, but it usually works to everyone's long-term benefit.

Bill

[ClayB]

Well said Art!

[Hilly]

I understand that these places can only keep x amount of stock... that is understood... and now with hidecrafter cutting inventory by half now since the buy out it is going to be worse for them with "back ordered" inventory. Stores like Tandy can send an order to any of 50 stores and if the store is out of an item, they can get it shipped from another store... SOC and HC cannot do this because they have only one building.... So... they need to be more thoughtful of the customers and be more customer committed to retain the customers instead of pissing them off and acting as if they do not care if you remain a customer or not by how they deal with you and your order. I might be an a**hole, and even though I am a penny pincher, I expect a certain level of customer service anywhere I spend money. I especially like to spend my money (for the best deal) locally at a place where the money will stay local, but I cant do that all the time, so i will venture out, but I still expect good service from the place I do choose to spend my money with.

I hear you!

I drove 200 miles and 3 hours to TLF for their customer appreciation sale. I wanted some single shoulders which were on sale. Arrived approx 3 hours after the beginning of the sale to find there wasn't one to be had. Store employee told me that someone came in and bought them ALL. I asked " Can you order from another store?" "Nope." "I asked do you gIve rain checks? "Nope, but maybe we could back order, but I'm not sure." So I said I needed some help to get some tools suitable to try my hand at Sheridan work. I was told to "go look in the Sheridan book and see what I needed." Wow, THAT'S what I call customer appreciation! :ranting: So I used my coupon for 50% of any one item in the store on the most expensive book they had, and left the store with one book, and a whole lot of money in my pocket.

Also have ordered from them and recieved partial order after waiting for nearly 2 weeks (Thank goodnes for Clay Miller in the S.D. store!). So I ask "Where's the rest of my order?" "Oh, it's on backorder" , to which I reply "Why wasn't I notified?" The store manager says "You mean my assistant never notified you?" so I say "No, please cancel the remainder of my order." They were too lazy to even check other TLF stores to see if my items were available, or they just didn't give a rip. Afer I got home, I was still steamed, so I emailed TLF "Customer Service" dept., and complained about their service. Never heard a word back. I guess they don't care, either.

You are NOT alone!

[bruce johnson]

So, Bruce - bottom line: who do you like in addition to Siegels?

Bill

Bill,

From Siegel I order heavier weight tooling, skirting, USA greasy waxy latigo, lining, LM shearlings, commercial oak for lining, work chap, diamond tan, and Osborne tools. Compare the cost of an Osborne round knife there and from craft sellers. From Hide House I order lighter weight tooling leather. Exotics from Jerry VanAmberg. For TLF, I order from Clovis usually. Ed is very knowledgeable. I order the chemicals, some hardware, lining pig, some odd lots once in a while. Hoping the new guys do well with HideCrafters. I had some issues with the George and Jane show. From Ferdco - needles and thread. Hardware mostly from Walsall if a big order. Some from Weaver, but try to avoid it. Shipping takes too long to where I live and have had enough problems and uninformed telephone reps. As an aside, their mauls are not made by a local Amish craftsman. Barry King lives in Sheridan, WY. If they are the only game, then they are it. Otherwise I order their resale line from whoever really makes it. Some stuff from Ohio Travel Bag, but again not much or lately. Most silver from Hansens. Stirrups from Trina Weber. Other hardware from Bork, Jeremiah Watt, and the local tent and awning supply or surplus. Stamps from Barry, TLF, Wayne Jueschke, Jeremiah Watt, and a few from Ellis Barnes. Tools from TLF, Barry King, Jeremiah Watt, Ron Edmonds, Wayne Jueschke, Bob Douglas, mostly. Another source that has been mentioned already. Sheridan Leather Outfitters stock a lot of useful stuff. For a small order to fill in, I have started ordering there, and will continue. If I need just some rings, stirrup buckles, or whatever - they are my new go to place. Better than making an order with someone else and padding it to meet the minimum order fee, and then shipping costs. I'll be doing more business with them as time goes on.

[whinewine]

I asked " Can you order from another store?" "Nope." "I asked do you gIve rain checks? "Nope, but maybe we could back order, but I'm not sure." So I said I needed some help to get some tools suitable to try my hand at Sheridan work. I was told to "go look in the Sheridan book and see what I needed." Wow, THAT'S what I call customer appreciation! :ranting: So I used my coupon for 50% of any one item in the store on the most expensive book they had, and left the store with one book, and a whole lot of money in my pocket.

Also have ordered from them and recieved partial order after waiting for nearly 2 weeks. So I ask "Where's the rest of my order?" "Oh, it's on backorder" , to which I reply "Why wasn't I notified?" The store manager says "You mean my assistant never notified you?" They were too lazy to even check other TLF stores to see if my items were available, or they just didn't give a rip. I emailed TLF "Customer Service" dept., and complained about their service. Never heard a word back. I guess they don't care, either.

That's a shame!

I deal primarily with the Delmont, PA (Pgh) store & if they can get stuff from another store, they will make a great effort to find it for you, and, they will most often do this voluntarily. Deb, Shannon & David there are great. Also, Jimmy Walthrop (last I heard, was promoted to manager of the Atlanta Store) was also great while he was in Pgh & gave me many good tips & hints.

The dicks YOU dealt with need some serious retraining in courtesy & motivation, among other things... Email, btw, doesn't do a lot of anything. If you want a situation corrected, you need to make such a stink that you will be dealt with in a quick, responsive manner. I once had some virus protection software that was such crap it gave me constant fits [no, it was a legitimate company, not a scam, but the software itself was just garbage]. Even after I emphatically & specifically requested to be removed from their database/mailing list, I kept getting offers to renew, for maybe a year after. I ended up researching the company itself & sent every department that had a 'contact us' section an email, from the president (or CEO) down to advertising, billing, sales, warehouse, VP in charge of 'this', VP in charge of 'that'... Everyone... It didn't take more than 48 hours that I received apologies. And more importantly, no more 'offers to renew'.

In lieu of that, as Art said, USE THE PHONE! Call Jim Linnell. He is one of the higher-ups in Tandy who has the ability to 'cure' laziness in a heartbeat.

[TwinOaks]

Johanna, I know you said wait on Siegel's, but...

Hilly, I've GOT to contrast you on TLF. I stopped in the nearest TLF on the way to north 'Bama just before Christmas, picked up a few things- catalogue, stamp, discount coupon...

Stopped back by the same TLF on the way home and found a few out of stock items. Of the ones I was looking for I was given a voucher by the store mgr for the discount price, and an expected date for arrival of the mdse. Since I live 3 hrs away, I told him I'd just have to pass, but thanks for the voucher offer- I just didn't know when the next time I might return would be. The next offer? Discount a second item at 50% and a little off the entire order. Sold.

To me that was really trying to make the customer happy ( and get some more money I'm sure) But what I got was something else I needed anyway so I came out ahead. I certainly hope your experience was a localized event, because the people I dealt with were definitely doing all they could to help the customer.

[bcurrier]

From Siegel I order ... From Hide House I order ... From Ferdco ... Walsall ... Weaver ... Barry King ... Ohio Travel Bag... silver from Hansens. Stirrups from Trina Weber. Other hardware from Bork, Jeremiah Watt,.... Stamps from Barry, TLF, Wayne Jueschke, Jeremiah Watt, and a few from Ellis Barnes. Tools from TLF, Barry King, Jeremiah Watt, Ron Edmonds, Wayne Jueschke, Bob Douglas... Sheridan Leather Outfitters ...

Amazingly complete response, Bruce, and thank you for taking the time.

Bill

[SCOUTER]

WOW! Sorry if I ruffled some feathers! Like I said in the first post I spoke to Steve and he was very nice, however the problem still exists. First of all, if you are going to list something as a SPECIAL you should have it in stock. Second, any business worth their salt will have a little note on every product that read "In Stock". (If not you should update your website every couple of days and take off any item that is not expected in within a week) What I hate the most is BAIT AND SWITCH where a business will advertise something at an amazing price but when you want it there is a problem like "Sorry we sold out" or "This model is just as good" (remember I live in NY and that runs rampid here!) but with mail order you often order other items to reach the free shipping point and for what? The item you originally wanted didn't show. Also when I called to complain they kept saying that they were waiting for the order from OSBORNE sounding like Osborne's having trouble filling their orders. So being the Loser that I am ^_^ I called OSBORNE and spoke to JAKE the president and 5th generation Osborne, he said that he is FULLY STOCKED READY TO SHIP! The problem was NOT with them.

As for Tandy I LOVE that store but have found a huge difference between stores. I found a really good Tandy dealer and now when I need Tandy stuff I only deal thru him!

[whinewine]

First of all, if you are going to list something as a SPECIAL you should have it in stock.

I'm sorry, but HUH??? If it's a special, it's just that- a special! You get a good buy on something, it's generally a one-time thing- a SPECIAL!!! When it sells out, it sells out. It's gone. Maybe you can get another special down the road, but not right away. This is different from the 10, 20 year 'going out of business' sales that [apparently] still proliferate in New York where you live. And from your own words, what bait & switch are you talking about??? Did they give you something different? No, it seems they didn't give what you wanted. They were out of stock of the SPECIAL. That's NOT bait & switch.