SIEGEL OF CALIFORNIA...

[wolvenstien]

Whine, I agree about the discontinued sales...

But on the subject of the SOC back order stuff.... you have delt with them for a while.... Had I never read or partisipated in this thread and placed an order with them and only got a part of the order, I would be pissed if there wasnt an explanation in the package. Yeah, the call is free, but that a call I should not need to make. How hard is it to add a note to a package when you are filling an order? "This order has items that are on back order and will be shipped shortly". They can have a stack of pre printed slips sitting on the packing table and when they have a box going out with an incomplete order, just grab a slip and add it to the package... customer get the package, there are no questions... No "did they charge me for everything but forget to send me everything?"

[Johanna]

One of the staff members has sent an email to Steven Siegel alerting him of this thread. It's not fair to run down a company in public w/o trying to resolve it on an individual basis first, so let's let SCOUTER notify Siegels of the problem before any more is said, pro or con, about the company's policies. SCOUTER, please post back to this thread when you have had a chance to discuss this order w/ Steven Siegel, and let us know how it worked out!

Thanks everybody!

Johanna

[Elton Joorisity]

Edited January 11, 2008 by Elton Joorisity

[whinewine]

Whine, I agree about the discontinued sales...

But on the subject of the SOC back order stuff.... you have delt with them for a while.... Had I never read or partisipated in this thread and placed an order with them and only got a part of the order, I would be pissed if there wasnt an explanation in the package. Yeah, the call is free, but that a call I should not need to make. How hard is it to add a note to a package when you are filling an order? "This order has items that are on back order and will be shipped shortly". They can have a stack of pre printed slips sitting on the packing table and when they have a box going out with an incomplete order, just grab a slip and add it to the package... customer get the package, there are no questions... No "did they charge me for everything but forget to send me everything?"

I agree, but it's such a small thing to get upset over, IMO, & yes, a note along with your packing order could be included. But if you really need something, you need to ask, upfront, if the item is in stock. If they say, well, it's very low, or out at the moment, then look elsewhere. Easy to do. It's just common sense. When I do shows, sometimes things you don't expect to sell take off & you sell out very quickly, & visa versa. This is something that you really can't anticipate all the time & it does happen. Should someone get pissed because his/her buddy got the last 'widget' I happened to have at that show? Hell, no... grow up, place a backorder [& yes, I will collect the money upfront beforehand- unlike Siegels, who get it when they ship the item] & act in a mature manner.

And, BTW, this is Siegels' big end of the year sale, with an additional 10% off everything in that sale right now. Are they gonna run out of stuff? Well, DUH!

[bruce johnson]

I am probably not going to change anyone's mind here, but my 2 cents. I have been a Siegel customer for several years. In that time, in a particularly trying time in my life Siegels did something for me personally that has pretty well shown me what kind of caring people they are from top to bottom. I will be a customer until one or the other us close our doors.

That said, the issue is back orders. Yep, I get from them too. I also get them from every other supplier. I have ordered from one of the above mentioned great suppliers and get zipper tape, top stops, and bottom stops. I need them by Friday so I can spend the weekend putting gussets together and assembling a bunch of planners. The zipper slides are backordered I find out when I open the box Fri. afternoon, at anyplace within 150 miles driving distance. I order from another supplier mentioned. I fill out my order to make the minimum with checkbook inserts. Ordered something like 25, they ship 23. A month later I get the other 2, along with a statement for under a dollar for the inserts, a minimum order surcharge, and about $6 for shipping. They stuck them in an envelope and mailed them for about 50 cents. I order from yet another from the list of folks above and get a full side with a forklift track the length of the side, yep it was sold as tannery run, run over at the tannery. Want to spend a fun time on the phone, talk to anyone about a return there. Order thread for top and bobbin and get two way dissimilar shades of brown neither one the color they show in their catalog. Ordered a set of edge bevelers from yet another place mentioned, I get edge creasers. I gave them THEIR catalog number, and that was on the packing slip also. I paid for shipping and was expected to pay for return shipping. I need some rigging rings, 4" bronze, a big tree and supply outfit is shipping them along with some other supplies. Friday comes, the saddle is sitting here for the re-rigging, and no rings in the box, they are held up somewhere and backordered. I am a second business. I work from 4:00 am until time to feed and go to work, then at night and weekends. When I need something, I need it too. Most of the time I need to be a better inventory manager too.

These are all reputation places who have been in business a while. They are going to have problems with supplies and orders at times. I don't run a website or catalog business, but I expect that it is not a simple deal to change a site to reflect a particular out of stock item. They are dealing with someone bigger than them keeping them supplied. Little things like short supplies, bigger demands in China, clearing customs, container off loading schedules, blizzards, refused orders due to quality, all affect our suppliers. They would like nothing more than to have no backorders also. Unless they are profiting from shipping and handling charges, they are losing money too.

I guess I learned a while back that I ask if everything is in stock no matter who it is. After a few experiences, it just is prudent with everyone. Moreso if I am out. Sometimes they don't know. The order taker is on the phone and the puller is in the warehouse. They have 12 sitting on a pallet, and the other phone rep just took an order for 11. Establish a relationship with the rep, and tell them you want to know about backorders, what you want for quality, what shape you need for the side (long and skinny for reins, or deep for bags, etc). At Siegels, you are talking to a rep who has probably spent time pulling orders in the warehouse and knows what you are talking about back there. I would much rather get personal and know the name of the person I am ordering from than hit keys anyday. People complain about "being a number" and then order by fax or internet when they have a telephone number. Maybe I am too old for this deal.

[Art]

Yes, I have had problems with Siegel's, and Tandy, and Weaver, and Hidecrafter, and many others. Well, supply problems are just the nature of any goods business, so get used to it. I have never received a back order notice from any but a mom and pop business where they are doing the ordering, selling, and shipping personally. With Tandy, I usually talk to the store manager who KNOWS his stock and usually his order leads, no problem there, he tells me over the phone if something is out. Only in very large and electronically sophisticated companies like MSC or McMaster-Carr will the websites have inventory tracking and that is because they are trying desperately to push business to electronic for economy in personnel. None of the leather supply companies are at that level of sophistication on the web, in years to come maybe, but not now. Weaver is the closest to electronic bliss, but they don't use a website, you talk to someone who uses the computer. Weaver is probably the best in order land. They can generally tell you if something is out and when it will arrive (they give long dates too, it usually gets in before they said it would), and if through faults in inventory something is out of stock, I get phone calls as to do I want to leave it on back order or cancel. The last few orders I got from Hidecrafter (before the sale) probably 10% of my order was filled. I still use them for videos etc and am waiting for their corporate life to get back to normal and for them to find their place in the leather world. Siegel I seldom have a problem with, but I use them for leather, that is what they do best, and I talk to them about the order and they know what I want and that's what I get. On the year end or other big sales, expect out of stock on a lot of stuff, it's a sale! But if you NEED something, tell them, let them know you're waiting for it, and see what they'll do.

I know it is easy to take it slow and use the computer, and the fact that you are on leatherworker.net tells me you are computer savvy or at least trying to get there. But as far as ordering goes............

USE THE PHONE

You have to ramp up your people skills and just pick up the phone and call. When you order something you need badly, ask if it is in stock, if not ask when it will get there, if the taker doesn't know, ask to speak to someone who does. Steve Siegel, Ron Morgan, Paul Weaver, and Everyone Else want you to get what you need, it is really what they live for, any if it is not right, they want to hear about it even more, no BS, they really do.

And if you get good service, product, or just a warm fuzzy feeling, let them know. The person on the other end of the phone is not a machine, they're just like us and a little personality can lighten their day and ours too.

Art

[bcurrier]

So, Bruce - bottom line: who do you like in addition to Siegels?

I agree with everything you said, BTW. I worked as a purchasing expediter in college for a while and saw all that and more. My favorite were the suppliers that always undershipped exactly 10% of the order, which is allowable under most industrial bulk purchasing contracts. On the flip side, the company I worked for (which I won't name), always took the 10 day payment discounts, but put invoices on the 90 or 120 day pay schedules. No wonder we had supplier problems ...

Most suppliers are well-intentioned and will address issues as they come up ... but not all. The only thing I'd add is that you often get a better response, and better relationship, when there's give and take on both sides. You might get asked, for example, if you can accomodate a delay so the supplier can fill an immediate need for another customer. Sometimes you get comped, sometimes not, but it usually works to everyone's long-term benefit.

Bill

[ClayB]

Well said Art!

[Hilly]

I understand that these places can only keep x amount of stock... that is understood... and now with hidecrafter cutting inventory by half now since the buy out it is going to be worse for them with "back ordered" inventory. Stores like Tandy can send an order to any of 50 stores and if the store is out of an item, they can get it shipped from another store... SOC and HC cannot do this because they have only one building.... So... they need to be more thoughtful of the customers and be more customer committed to retain the customers instead of pissing them off and acting as if they do not care if you remain a customer or not by how they deal with you and your order. I might be an a**hole, and even though I am a penny pincher, I expect a certain level of customer service anywhere I spend money. I especially like to spend my money (for the best deal) locally at a place where the money will stay local, but I cant do that all the time, so i will venture out, but I still expect good service from the place I do choose to spend my money with.

I hear you!

I drove 200 miles and 3 hours to TLF for their customer appreciation sale. I wanted some single shoulders which were on sale. Arrived approx 3 hours after the beginning of the sale to find there wasn't one to be had. Store employee told me that someone came in and bought them ALL. I asked " Can you order from another store?" "Nope." "I asked do you gIve rain checks? "Nope, but maybe we could back order, but I'm not sure." So I said I needed some help to get some tools suitable to try my hand at Sheridan work. I was told to "go look in the Sheridan book and see what I needed." Wow, THAT'S what I call customer appreciation! :ranting: So I used my coupon for 50% of any one item in the store on the most expensive book they had, and left the store with one book, and a whole lot of money in my pocket.

Also have ordered from them and recieved partial order after waiting for nearly 2 weeks (Thank goodnes for Clay Miller in the S.D. store!). So I ask "Where's the rest of my order?" "Oh, it's on backorder" , to which I reply "Why wasn't I notified?" The store manager says "You mean my assistant never notified you?" so I say "No, please cancel the remainder of my order." They were too lazy to even check other TLF stores to see if my items were available, or they just didn't give a rip. Afer I got home, I was still steamed, so I emailed TLF "Customer Service" dept., and complained about their service. Never heard a word back. I guess they don't care, either.

You are NOT alone!

[bruce johnson]

So, Bruce - bottom line: who do you like in addition to Siegels?

Bill

Bill,

From Siegel I order heavier weight tooling, skirting, USA greasy waxy latigo, lining, LM shearlings, commercial oak for lining, work chap, diamond tan, and Osborne tools. Compare the cost of an Osborne round knife there and from craft sellers. From Hide House I order lighter weight tooling leather. Exotics from Jerry VanAmberg. For TLF, I order from Clovis usually. Ed is very knowledgeable. I order the chemicals, some hardware, lining pig, some odd lots once in a while. Hoping the new guys do well with HideCrafters. I had some issues with the George and Jane show. From Ferdco - needles and thread. Hardware mostly from Walsall if a big order. Some from Weaver, but try to avoid it. Shipping takes too long to where I live and have had enough problems and uninformed telephone reps. As an aside, their mauls are not made by a local Amish craftsman. Barry King lives in Sheridan, WY. If they are the only game, then they are it. Otherwise I order their resale line from whoever really makes it. Some stuff from Ohio Travel Bag, but again not much or lately. Most silver from Hansens. Stirrups from Trina Weber. Other hardware from Bork, Jeremiah Watt, and the local tent and awning supply or surplus. Stamps from Barry, TLF, Wayne Jueschke, Jeremiah Watt, and a few from Ellis Barnes. Tools from TLF, Barry King, Jeremiah Watt, Ron Edmonds, Wayne Jueschke, Bob Douglas, mostly. Another source that has been mentioned already. Sheridan Leather Outfitters stock a lot of useful stuff. For a small order to fill in, I have started ordering there, and will continue. If I need just some rings, stirrup buckles, or whatever - they are my new go to place. Better than making an order with someone else and padding it to meet the minimum order fee, and then shipping costs. I'll be doing more business with them as time goes on.