My Images On Ebay

[Johanna]

Louis, quit playing the sick wife card. The fact is that everyone here knows that they can look at a picture and instantly tell if it is their work or someone else's, and they expect you to be able to also. Substituting their work for yours is politely called "fraud", and it is simply not acceptable in the elite saddlemaker community. These men and women make saddles they are proud of, and wouldn't dream of stealing someone's pictures or trying to take credit for someone else's work. They are justifiably angry at you for stealing, and misleading customers. No one here wishes ill on your wife, in fact I'd bet a dollar some of the people who are disgusted with you, prayed for her. Do NOT use other people's pictures EVER without their permission. Remember that, and maybe in a long time, after people see you change your ways, they might not be so quick to lash out. But to say it's not your fault and times are hard, well, everyone here knows that for exactly what is is. Bull Kukka. You made the decision to misrepresent yourself, and to cash in on the value of someone else's hard earned skill, and that doesn't fly here.

When this matter was discussed by the staff, it was decided to let you stay until everyone was done chewing on you and satisfied. Fair warning- your membership status here is tentative.

Johanna

[RWB]

Louis, quit playing the sick wife card. The fact is that everyone here knows that they can look at a picture and instantly tell if it is their work or someone else's, and they expect you to be able to also. Substituting their work for yours is politely called "fraud", and it is simply not acceptable in the elite saddlemaker community. These men and women make saddles they are proud of, and wouldn't dream of stealing someone's pictures or trying to take credit for someone else's work. They are justifiably angry at you for stealing, and misleading customers. No one here wishes ill on your wife, in fact I'd bet a dollar some of the people who are disgusted with you, prayed for her. Do NOT use other people's pictures EVER without their permission. Remember that, and maybe in a long time, after people see you change your ways, they might not be so quick to lash out. But to say it's not your fault and times are hard, well, everyone here knows that for exactly what is is. Bull Kukka. You made the decision to misrepresent yourself, and to cash in on the value of someone else's hard earned skill, and that doesn't fly here.

When this matter was discussed by the staff, it was decided to let you stay until everyone was done chewing on you and satisfied. Fair warning- your membership status here is tentative.

Johanna

Johanna,

Well said. I'm sure that everyone posting on this site appreciates that coming from you. Is there any way to "lock" pictures on this site? I know some sites have a barrier of sorts to prevent people from right clicking on them and saving them to their computer. Would that be viable for this site since there are some many different people posting here? This a great place for learning and resources, but obviously it isn't cool if people are stealing stuff. Just a thought, if it doesn't work no big deal.

Ross Brunk

[JLSleather]

Preface this next thing with a clear statement that I know leather, and leather craft, and leather workers, but have never made a saddle (of any type or style). I do know something about the legal system. I'm not from Texas, but I think the laws are pretty standard (though not universal). Now, that said, with the understanding that the boss lady reserves the right to delete it and the saddle boys (n girls) are not s'posedta sock me in the eye ...

A photograph that is placed on the internet which has no copyright or patent rights is "public domain". Don't know of anywhere you can be prosecuted for copying what is clearly not "private".

A sick spouse (or one whose backside has been altered through the years) is no defense for anything. Anywhere. If you stole from me to feed your kids, I just might forgive it, but not defend it.

Deliberate misrepresentation of an item for sale is fraud just about anywhere. But to prosecute, you may need to prosecute in the state where the fraud happened. This is likely to be a civil matter as well, but a fella would have to show that actual damage occurred (ie, I lost these sales, I had to pay these fees, ...).

I would have thought Ebay would want to NOT be involved in this, though you can bet with the amount of money that goes through there they have plenty of their own lawyers. It is possible that one or more of these attorneys has told them NOT to act. Here's the deal... A guy posts a photo of an item. Someone else says - hey, that's my item and he has no right to it. Ebay doesn't know, and to remove a listing without actual knowledge may give the appearance of taking sides, even though they'd rather not.

Ebay members don't seem to have a preference. I've seen some "leathercraft" on there where the best "feedback" I could give is to manage not to puke. And it sells anyway. And I'm sure that there are plenty of those who, if you could prove the item is stolen, would buy it anyway if it's what they want and they could be persuaded thy can get away with it.

It becomes, then, a matter of personal integrity. Which is not prosecutable or actionable. If the photo was copied, I doubt there's much that can be done, unless someone went in to your shop to photograph it. If the PRODUCT was stolen that's another matter. Upon receipt of evidence of that, Ebay would become a "conspirator", a "party", and equally liable for any damages. On the other hand, I don't know of any laws which would prevent someone from copying and posting one of my photos and saying "It's one LIKE this".

[gtwister09]

"A photograph that is placed on the internet which has no copyright or patent rights is "public domain"."

This is NOT true...Sorry!

I have included a site on Copyright myths. below.

10 Big Myths about Copyrights explained

Regards,

Ben

Edited March 6, 2010 by gtwister09

[Shelly]

Preface this next thing with a clear statement that I know leather, and leather craft, and leather workers, but have never made a saddle (of any type or style). I do know something about the legal system. I'm not from Texas, but I think the laws are pretty standard (though not universal). Now, that said, with the understanding that the boss lady reserves the right to delete it and the saddle boys (n girls) are not s'posedta sock me in the eye ...

A photograph that is placed on the internet which has no copyright or patent rights is "public domain". Don't know of anywhere you can be prosecuted for copying what is clearly not "private".

A sick spouse (or one whose backside has been altered through the years) is no defense for anything. Anywhere. If you stole from me to feed your kids, I just might forgive it, but not defend it.

Deliberate misrepresentation of an item for sale is fraud just about anywhere. But to prosecute, you may need to prosecute in the state where the fraud happened. This is likely to be a civil matter as well, but a fella would have to show that actual damage occurred (ie, I lost these sales, I had to pay these fees, ...).

I would have thought Ebay would want to NOT be involved in this, though you can bet with the amount of money that goes through there they have plenty of their own lawyers. It is possible that one or more of these attorneys has told them NOT to act. Here's the deal... A guy posts a photo of an item. Someone else says - hey, that's my item and he has no right to it. Ebay doesn't know, and to remove a listing without actual knowledge may give the appearance of taking sides, even though they'd rather not.

Ebay members don't seem to have a preference. I've seen some "leathercraft" on there where the best "feedback" I could give is to manage not to puke. And it sells anyway. And I'm sure that there are plenty of those who, if you could prove the item is stolen, would buy it anyway if it's what they want and they could be persuaded thy can get away with it.

It becomes, then, a matter of personal integrity. Which is not prosecutable or actionable. If the photo was copied, I doubt there's much that can be done, unless someone went in to your shop to photograph it. If the PRODUCT was stolen that's another matter. Upon receipt of evidence of that, Ebay would become a "conspirator", a "party", and equally liable for any damages. On the other hand, I don't know of any laws which would prevent someone from copying and posting one of my photos and saying "It's one LIKE this".

I understand what you are saying here, and agree that it could be hard to prosecute for photos copied that aren't copyrighted, etc...but, I think that, in skimming the thread here, that you have missed a few important elements - Louis took my photo a few years ago, (it's the reining saddle in the pic that was listed above, along with the unknown maker's Wade) - he listed it on EBay - I saw it, read it thoroughly, before acting - he was selling the saddle in the pic, as his, in his possession - this was a custom order that I knew for a fact was not in his possession...so what do you tell the people that had bids on that saddle when they don't get the saddle they think they are purchasing? The image wasn't large enough to get a clear view of the makers stamp, so buyers weren't aware that this was not his work or his saddle...and nowhere did he say 'selling a saddle LIKE this one...'. If I were a buyer, I would think I was buying the saddle in that photo. That is outright fraud...the saddle was not a stolen saddle, just a stolen image, that he was 'selling'...I have no idea what the buyers would get when the auction ended, and they opened that box on the other end of the transaction, but it sure wasn't what he said he was selling! This is the same thing that has happened to Steve, this guy is not using these images on Ebay as 'selling a saddle like this one' - buyers think they are buying THAT saddle in the image - so Steve is justifiable in his anger, as I was, when we knew that this guy did not have these saddles in his possession to sell to anyone! So, there is a huge difference in just 'borrowing' an image, and taking bids on a saddle that you don't even own, representing the image as your own work, and ready to deliver! I'm sure if Ebay or any of the lawyers involved wanted real proof, Steve and I probably have a large number of pix on our hard drives that we can show the maker's stamp clearly - along with the background, etc, that would prove beyond any doubt that the saddles were made in our shops (I take pix as I build them for my customers, so they can see how their saddles come together)...I don't see how Louis can sit there and truly believe that there is no way that we would recognize an photo of a saddle we made, that we took pictures of, edited those pictures of, and saved those pix in files...I am looking into a copyright/watermark for my pix, etc.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Shelly

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Luis,

In your post directed to me you wrote "I do my own work". Yet in your e-mail to us you said "here is a couple of pics of my saddles As you can see I try to do my best". The pictures you sent with that e-mail were NOT your own work. The reiner was built by Shelly Liggett and I have just confirmed that the Wade was indeed built by Perry Ward from Rafter W saddles. He told me the picture was taken in his shop 3 years ago. I am not attacking you Luis. I am simply telling the truth. Stealing pictures off the internet is stealing, and saying you made something you didn't is lying. I'm sorry if your wife has cancer and if things are tough for you. If you can make a decent saddle and sell it honestly, then that is how you should make your living. But don't steal and don't lie, as you are continuing to do.

Denise

[Shelly]

"A photograph that is placed on the internet which has no copyright or patent rights is "public domain"."

This is NOT true...Sorry!

I have included a site on Copyright myths. below.

10 Big Myths about Copyrights explained

Regards,

Ben

Thanks for the link, Ben!

[JLSleather]

Agreed. While I've not personally built a saddle, I do have a pretty good idea of the time and work that goes into those things. My brother's brother in law had a leather shop in Houston for quite a spell. Personally, I wouldn't know at a glance the difference between a roper and a wade ... but now that I've been kicked in the pants a bit (no offense taken) you can bet I'll find out (at which time I'll be back to personally thank any and all saddle builders who lit that fire under me).

You are right, of course, when you say I don't understand the situation. This is why I used general facts about this TYPE of case, blended with just the right amount of humor about the following side of my wife

Make no mistake, because I haven't built a saddle doesn't mean I can't appreciate them. In fact, my whole leathercraft CAUSE is making attractive items that have a PURPOSE (I like "pretty" stuff, but I like to see it get used). Guy has the drive, the artistic talent, and the desire to build a saddle has earned some respect. No mistake that I use the term saddle BUILDER.

Please take no offense at any of my comments, I meant only to clarify and help. One of you boys (n girls) finds my comments at all objectionable, feel free to invite Johanna to this written permission to delete them, no offense taken.

[Shelly]

Agreed. While I've not personally built a saddle, I do have a pretty good idea of the time and work that goes into those things. My brother's brother in law had a leather shop in Houston for quite a spell. Personally, I wouldn't know at a glance the difference between a roper and a wade ... but now that I've been kicked in the pants a bit (no offense taken) you can bet I'll find out (at which time I'll be back to personally thank any and all saddle builders who lit that fire under me).

You are right, of course, when you say I don't understand the situation. This is why I used general facts about this TYPE of case, blended with just the right amount of humor about the following side of my wife

Make no mistake, because I haven't built a saddle doesn't mean I can't appreciate them. In fact, my whole leathercraft CAUSE is making attractive items that have a PURPOSE (I like "pretty" stuff, but I like to see it get used). Guy has the drive, the artistic talent, and the desire to build a saddle has earned some respect. No mistake that I use the term saddle BUILDER.

Please take no offense at any of my comments, I meant only to clarify and help. One of you boys (n girls) finds my comments at all objectionable, feel free to invite Johanna to this written permission to delete them, no offense taken.

Just so you know - I'm not upset with you! I just wanted to be sure to clarify exactly what this man is actually doing with our pictures...

[barra]

Shelly has hit on an Idea with the suggestion of adding a watermark to pitures. Another simple method is to have a small sign or even a business card sized card with something like proudly handcrafted by "Joe Bloggs" visible in every picture as of course trying to capture different angles will not capture the makers mark everytime. I guess the photo shop geeks can get around this but it is a deterent for all but the hard corp image plagiarist.

Barra

[cem]

Johanna,

Well said. I'm sure that everyone posting on this site appreciates that coming from you. Is there any way to "lock" pictures on this site? I know some sites have a barrier of sorts to prevent people from right clicking on them and saving them to their computer. Would that be viable for this site since there are some many different people posting here? This a great place for learning and resources, but obviously it isn't cool if people are stealing stuff. Just a thought, if it doesn't work no big deal.

Ross Brunk

Ross, Johanna could put in the code to stop right clicking but it won't stop it why because everyones computer has a print screen button which gets around it. The best thing everyone can do is watermark their photos and if they have Photoshop to fill out the image details section (other programs might have this as well).

Put your watermark copyright details across the middle of the photo if it's on the borders it's easier to crop out, this will stop most of the casual thieves for the others you want to make it as hard as possible for them to remove the copyright info ie put watermarks in that only you know where they are and keep a written record of it. Also when taking photos take additional photos of the background without the product and with your makers mark or unique objects that you own. Any additional stuff is always a help if you have a case like this with a photo thief.

Clair

[steve mason]

if your point is to destroy my reputation go head on ebay,

Louis, no one here needs to try destroy your reputation, you are doing a fine job of that yourself by stealing photos and represtenting them as your own.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Steve, Shelly, and everyone here has every right to be hot under the collar about this. We all know how much work we put into these saddles, and I am sure that we all also think of our work as special, I know I do.

Somewhere in this thread, it was mentioned about when a customer opens up the box and it is not what what they thought they bought on e-bay. I am wondering if anyone knows what happens then? Specifically with these saddles that were sold as Luis'. Does anybody know? I am not an e-bay guy, but; I have entertained the thought of selling a saddle on e-bay. Just curious.

Bondo Bob

[RWB]

Ross, Johanna could put in the code to stop right clicking but it won't stop it why because everyones computer has a print screen button which gets around it. The best thing everyone can do is watermark their photos and if they have Photoshop to fill out the image details section (other programs might have this as well).

Put your watermark copyright details across the middle of the photo if it's on the borders it's easier to crop out, this will stop most of the casual thieves for the others you want to make it as hard as possible for them to remove the copyright info ie put watermarks in that only you know where they are and keep a written record of it. Also when taking photos take additional photos of the background without the product and with your makers mark or unique objects that you own. Any additional stuff is always a help if you have a case like this with a photo thief.

Clair

Thanks for the details on that, Clair. I didn't think about the print screen key.

Ross

[Tina]

Here's just one tutorial of making wathermarks, there's a million of them out there if you think this is tricky...Just make some searches until you'll find one that makes sense to you. When you have it all down it will only take you an extra minute on a picture to make it happend:

http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/photoshop/ht/apswatermark.htm

[cowgirlrae]

Here's just one tutorial of making wathermarks, there's a million of them out there if you think this is tricky...Just make some searches until you'll find one that makes sense to you. When you have it all down it will only take you an extra minute on a picture to make it happend:

http://graphicssoft....pswatermark.htm

Picasa by google is free, download for the picture editor lives on your computer no need to upload to edit, has a watermark feature, just point and click.

One option

Unfortunately a crop an easily eliminate a edge or side watermark and across the image sort of defeats the purpose of nice images of ones work. I think diligent pursuing and addressing thieves is the best course, I think a clean and beautiful set of images is worth the smaller risk of someone abusing that, Its too bad it happens.

[GAP]

That's an interesting topic on the watermarks... still havn't read the complete thread.... I've kinda followed this topic through here and another site. It really gets my hair up!

Very few things I can't put up with, and most of them I can just put a grin on and keep on going. Liars and thieves just aren't one, no matter what excuse they come up with. They are DS!

Those of us who are honest, have a hard enough time keeping the wolves from the door without a sheister coming along to steal from us. I've been stolen from before too, and not a small amount. I can't touch him legally because of contractual limitations. But one of these days, I will see him again and it's liable to be in a lonesome place.

No matter whether the lie or theft be big or small, it's still the same! There is the law, and there is what is right, sometimes the two just never meet!

[equiss]

Hello I'm Louis Carrillo

Since I apologize to you steve, I made a terrible mistake, now I am paying the terrible consequences.On the other hand I am a true saddlemaker Fisrt my most sincere respects to Darcy Kabatoff, and Steve Mason saddlemaker both the best of the best in the art of saddlemakeing

For personal problems of the cancer of my wife I was behind on my

orders, but it is for this person to steve B, I will no to trample on my reputation of saddlemaker, closed the auction for fear of negative feedback, but not because I can not make this quality of saddles, something ridiculous, knowing how demanding is the community from ebay to present something that is not.

those others who THROUGH comment for this person steve B saddlestrees are saying my bad saddle trees I invite yout contact me.everytime I more familiarize myself with the system dennis lane of Australia

I will put on ebay or other leather board disc. photos of will james or wade saddles and will also here in leatherworker and you'll see that I am NOT a beginner making saddles.

Believe it or not I have learned alot from darcy kabatoff, his work is the TOP OF THE LINE.

Here in leatheworker,and I also see his work in canada four years ago Spec.this person

motivated me to make better work everytime I made a saddle

Now I invite you expert saddlemaker or bigginer to share everything we know If some read this and its

try to learn saddlemaking to visit me and Ill teach you for free.

Let make the art of saddlamaking not disappear!!!

Louis Carrillo

Hello Louis,

I have emailed you a few times and not heard back now. But, it has been well over 1.5 years since the saddle order and since I sent the saddle back. I sent you an email this morning and some pictures, but I REALLY want to resolve this and either get the saddle made or my money sent back. I don't have time to just keep money tied up or lost. I am very sorry for your personal problems and you promised me we could get this resolved. As of yet, I am still out the money I paid you and still have no sadddle. Please get back to me ASAP

Charlene Stovin