Sharper Than Sharp

[rgerbitz]

I am looking for some sharpening help. Have been looking over all the options, wet stone, oil stone, diamond stone, sand paper....... Am wondering what works, how it works, why it doesn't work. What would be the best all purpose sharpening set up for a shop. From sharpening/shaping to stroping/polishing.

Thank you for your time and input,

Rob

[Tkleather1]

I too would be interested in this information, I would also like to add what is the best bang for your buck? I know you usually get what you pay for but there are ways to get around some of the cost.

Thanks all

Tim Worley

TK-Leather

[8thsinner]

GEnerally this is a huge huge question and quite frankly even those of us who consider them selves good at this art still argue about it.

Here are some major questions to consider

What will you be sharpening?

What is your budget?

What sort of steel are you sharpening?

How much space do you have?

For knives and scissors the edge pro with all the extras is ideal and will last a life time, it's designed to be used by people making a living at sharpening other peoples knives.

Other similar brands are available in the hundreds and cheaper.

Arkansas hard and soft stones are more traditional and will raise a good edge but not polish

Oil stones do not need oil, infact they are better with water. And they get a polish. But they are very slow.

Japanese stones cut fast, and polish amazingly well but the good ones are not cheap. Field kit, one 1000 and 6000 dual grit stone, a diamond file, and a strop...perfect edge every time.

a leather strop will polish most any edge but may toughen (make convex) the edge depending on leather thickness, not ideal if it's a splitter blade your sharpening.

Are you sharpening two blades constantly? Make your self your own jig with a few bits of wood, less then a dozen nails and any sharpening medium.

Diamonds cut fast but not near as smoothly as a japanese stone will, But for the field butchering use, they are ideal to reshape and sharpen before polishing with japanese.

On a budget? 400 - 2000 grit wet and dry paper backed onto glass will do a good job again, and can raise a superb polished edge.

The REAL value is not only knowledge but belief in perfect angles make perfect edges. You can sharpen with near anything including glasses, tiles, bricks etc. Anything with a grit to it, even bullrush stems or chocolate will sharpen and polish a blade as long as it's backed and supported by a suitable material such as leather, wood or your leg.

Consitancy in edge alignment and pressure of direction are the key though...

My homemade stanley razor splitter set up gets polished up before use with a 3000 grit japanese sharpening stone, tear drop style, cheap and far from perfect polish but it works for splitting leather. I take the same stone to my convex hunting blade once every 3-4 months by hand, every other sharpening is done by strop either supported by wood, or strung from my foot. Any leather will make a good strop with the right compound, but thicker is better and the more suede like the more of the compound can be really worked into the pores.

Ask more questions and be more specific please.

forgot to mention theres another traditional electric waterstone set up thats excellent and made by a european company, I can dig out my catologue if your interested. It ranges up to a 6000 grit wheel around 12 inches in width so it will last but the whole set up costs around 5-600 euros...

[8thsinner]

bang for the buck...

Jig made from wooden pallets, cheap stones, wet and dry or a second hand oil stone, leather which we all have some of, boot laces and toothpaste.

ALthough really toothpaste sucks in long term use.

[BigRiverLeather]

Since we are on the topic of something that has been on my mind A LOT the past month or two, I will be specific about one type of sharpening I am interested in. I've been considering a head knife, and for starting out I'd probably start with the CSO #70 or the #71. I just now learned that there is a difference between a head knife and a round knife One step forward and two steps back. Now I need to find out which of those I need as a first tool.

Anyway, Before i buy a head (or round knife) knife, I want to be able to line up the proper tools to keep it sharp. I should find a cheap beater to practice on first so I don't ruin my investment or get discouraged.

My budget for the sharpening system should not exceed $50 - $60 tops, but lower would be really good as despite what my lovely and talented bride will tell you, I can be a cheap SOB :D

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Basically, all the stuff applies. The only thing I will add is stropping/polishing is the final step. I learned the stuff about angles and so on a looooooong time ago, back in the 50's in the Boy Scouts. It all applies, but; I am convinced that after it is all said and done, that last step really gets the edge complete. I have gone away from the leather strop only for the time and convenience of using a buffing wheel on a mandrel. ( if you choose to try this, BE CAREFUL!!!) Make sure you are holding the blade in a manner that if the wheel grabs it and takes it out of your hand,(without practice it will) the blade will be going away from anything that you don't want to cut off like fingers and such. Some jewlers rouge, a wheel, and some practice, and you will be using a blade so sharp that it will cut through leather "like a hot knife through butter" . This works for me.

Bondo Bob

[8thsinner]

I might suggest the perfect system of keeping a round knife as sharp as you need would be to make up a jig like I showed but reversing the blade and the stone.

Depending on the size of the handle you should be able to insert it into a hollow metal tube just big enough to stay loose

Keep the angle constant by hammering nails for which the tube cannot go past and make sure that the blade is centred to the stone on this.

WHen sharpening keep the pressure on working into the edge and when placing a strop on top of the stone (the 2mm difference causes a micro bevel) put the pressure away from the edge to push the burr off. But will also convex the edge a micro fraction which will only serve to toughen not blunt the use of it.

I forgot to add above if your working up through the grits of wet and dry not sand paper, at each grit work at a minimum of 45 degrees angle difference, this reveals much more obviously when you have removed as much metal as needed.

Budget for sharpening tools, Jig is near enough free if you can find some scrap wood and nails, that way you can spend more on 8" japanese bench stones two duals covering maybe as low as 800 all the way 8000. However professional japanese chefs would stick to 1000 and 5000

[rgerbitz]

In what I have seen so far it looks like a strop is standard in any shop either the old fashioned peice of leather on a board or a new fangled bench grinder. What I am really hoping for is a discussion on the different types of stones, oil, wet, diamond, different sizes and shapes. Which ones do you have and what do you like about them. And what don't you like or would like to see different. Also what grits work best for shaping and sharpening. Like most folks I am trying to keep up on a variety of edges from splitters to edgers. I don't mind spending $100 on a stone, but I would rather do it once than five times trying to get the right one.

Thank you for your time,

Rob

[Kelvandor]

I know some may thump me in the head for this:

I've found that the Lansky kits actually work pretty well for keeping most of my larger blades sharp, including my round knives. I can keep a constant angle on any blade with the jig included, and the stone grits go from 80 to 2000. As long as I don't try to rush, and strop afterwards, I can keep my blades practically vorpal.

Lansky kits are not very expensive, and there are a couple of brands out there that sell the same style system.

-Kel

[8thsinner]

Well aside from the fact that every one is really quite personal in their choices with blades and stones.

My choices reflect an outdoors mans lifestyle with field sharpening kits being my preference.

Diamond dust on a stone or a file is great for shaping and taking out nicks, they cut reasonably quickly reguardless of the steel, they stay flat permanently and are mostly easy to clean. But they are quite expensive.

Japanese stones are easily the best for polishing, for leather work 1-2000 I find quite adequate, I got mine from survivalschool.co.uk. One has broken in 6 years but I still use it.

My first choice for touching up my camp blade or khukri is the strop loaded with rough.

I also have an old fashioned oil stone hard (scrapes white if dry) it's easy to use but it is very time consuming.

Though oil stone on a jig using water, I can get a 128 gram knife to slice skin by it's own weight within 4mm of movement using an angle of 35 degrees on 440c steel. I always carry a cutting of this in the field about an inch across.

I have a mini sharpening steel in my wallet at all times which is great for working out a nick during skinning or other slicing activities but I always resort to diamond to fix it followed by stone to polish it up again, then a strop to buff the burr off.

My diamond file today by preference is the one on my Leatherman TTi.

My blades range from 440 A or B, S30V to D2 and truck steel springs. and this makes quite an impact on prefered sharpening methods.

SOfter steels that are still in the quality range like 440c Arkansas stones work but kinda slow. On my D2 this would be unacceptable to me, I like sharpening but I am not willing to spend three times longer doing so with weak stones.

I often use a very heavy grit diamond stone measuring I think about 2 by 6 inches to flatten the japanese stones, thats there only downfall, they need to be kept flat and improper use always wears them down in the middle.

I am always working towards proper japanese sharpening methods for katanas so even in convex blades I prefer flat stones over mouse mats, although I always keep a supply of 2000 grit paper too

So in essence Without buying a jig system heres what I recommend

Immediate touch up suitable for cooking etc, smooth steel cheap or antique works fine.

Removing damaged areas definately a diamond file or stone like the DC4, although I don't have one. This doesn't need to be big unless you regularily reshape heavily damaged and rusted blades.

Medium to average sharpen or light polish 1000 grit japanese stone small or large, small for field use and large for home and bench use. If your using a strop after this it becomes a high polish and keeps the price down.

But if you want super sharp 4000grit japanese stone hands down, superior polish.

To clean up a blade of rust dirt and what not, I have two stone like things about 3 by 2 by half inch, I don't know what they arecalled for but they are kind of a dark green and glittery and used for buffing scratches from aliminium, I think a skiboarders buffer is the same thing but haven't tested that.

I don't have any jig systems but my design was based on the edge pro, I am confident that the diamond stones used in them are worthwhile and if I could afford it I would still get the apex model as it is portable.

As I said though it's personal choice but thats my opinions.

[TexasJack]

WHAT you use is not nearly as important as HOW you use it.I know of guys who have sharpened a knife (in a pinch) on the bottom of a coffee mug or on a car window. Seriously.The simplest, cheapest method is something woodworking folks call 'Scary Sharp'. It consists of a series of sandpapers - from maybe 200 grit to as high as you can go (800 grit or better). The paper needs to be mounted on something very flat - a piece of glass works great. Tape it on the glass, wet it with a light oil (e.g., gun oil or WD-40). As you get a decent edge with the most coarse paper, set up the next highest grit.Key to this is finding the right angle and MAINTAINING that angle. That's why so many people end up using commercial gadgets - they just don't keep a constant angle. Like anything else that takes practice. If need be, cut a piece of wood to the angle matching your blade and keep it nearby.When you get done sharpening the blade, there will be a 'wire-edge'. Steel flows a bit as you're sharpening and this wire edge will feel very sharp, but will fold over the first time you use the knife. Strop it on a piece of leather to get rid of the wire edge and you'll have a quality edge that will stay sharp. (Assuming, of course, that you have a decent knife steel to begin with.)The basic same techniques also apply if you are using diamond sharpeners or stones.As for practice, don't do that on your best leather or hunting knives. Go to the kitchen; there are ALWAYS knives that need sharpening in the kitchen. Work out your techniques on them.

[electrathon]

If you want scary sharp, easily, it is really hard to beat a cardboard stone. Buy a harbor freight bench buffer and replace the stone and buffer with the cardboard wheels. Once you learn to use them (easy) you will see how simple it is to reach and maintain scary sharp.

Aaron

[skipj]

If you want scary sharp, easily, it is really hard to beat a cardboard stone. Buy a harbor freight bench buffer and replace the stone and buffer with the cardboard wheels. Once you learn to use them (easy) you will see how simple it is to reach and maintain scary sharp.

Aaron

Cardboard wheels? First I've heard of them

SkipJ

[skipj]

bang for the buck...

Jig made from wooden pallets, cheap stones, wet and dry or a second hand oil stone, leather which we all have some of, boot laces and toothpaste.

ALthough really toothpaste sucks in long term use.

I can't seen how the jig works. Too dark a picture on my screen. Is it just me?

SkipJ

[8thsinner]

If you look under the stone you will see the knife blade poking out.

The stones are tied to the wood which slides ontop of the rack right side, the rope on it is to keep it alligned perfectly,

You slide the wood/stones over the blade curing around the belly, back and forth back and forth.

You work that till there is a burr, then change sides...

That clear it up any?

If it doesn't go to youtube and look up cutlerylover, he has an excellent demo of the edgepro apex...

If you look under the stone you will see the knife blade poking out.

The stones are tied to the wood which slides ontop of the rack right side, the rope on it is to keep it alligned perfectly,

You slide the wood/stones over the blade curing around the belly, back and forth back and forth.

You work that till there is a burr, then change sides...

That clear it up any?

If it doesn't go to youtube and look up cutlerylover, he has an excellent demo of the edgepro apex...

[electrathon]

Cardboard wheels? First I've heard of them

SkipJ

http://www.razorknife.com/

[skipj]

Thanks all.

SkipJ

[seveneves]

I thought i'd add my two cents. I don't know if anyone has talked about this yet but weaver sells stuff called aluminum oxide. It's so cool. It's a gray power that you sprinkle on a leather strop and use it just like rouge. I first get a good edge on a stone... then hone it down on with the oxide and then polish it with the rouge. It gets plenty sharp to cut through heavy skirting leather with ease. There are some good videos on youtube about sharpening. One guy sharpens his on a cinder block and gets it sharp enough to shave. It's 10% what you use 90% technique.

[AZ09]

I am looking for some sharpening help. Have been looking over all the options, wet stone, oil stone, diamond stone, sand paper....... Am wondering what works, how it works, why it doesn't work. What would be the best all purpose sharpening set up for a shop. From sharpening/shaping to stroping/polishing.

Thank you for your time and input,

Rob

Hi Rob,

I can help on this.. The answer to your question is "paper wheels" on a buffer Your can make your knife "vorpal" sharp in a New York minute w/o risking damage to the blade. It's an easy learning curve. I was intirduced to them over a year ago and have been a devotee since. I 've been a traditional "whet stone" sharpener since 1969.

The one thing the paper wheels do not provide is the "Zen meditation" or Mushin (mind of no mind) that gliding a blade over a stone gives ...

Now, the wheels are easy to use and affordable. Go Here and read through the entirethread. Richard J. is the guy with the knowledge. I also use his technique of the one o'clock hold with the wheel spinning towards me...

I puchase my 8 in wheels from Grizzly Tools wheels and a buffer from harbor frieght buffer . I practised sharpening with a pack of cheap hack saw blade edges to get the feel. I then set my sites to the kitchen... W/in the first hour I had the the brides kitchen knives cutting like light sabers, then I convinced the neighbors to give me their kitchen tools.

It's that easy.

Goog Luck LMK if you have any questions

Peace

Tal~

Edited March 17, 2010 by AZ09

[dirtclod]

Tal none of the kinks work. They all go to a add site.

[jeeperaz]

Tal none of the kinks work. They all go to a add site.

I think he had one too many http's in the links. Try these:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578787

&

http://www.grizzly.com/products/8-Razor-Sharp-System/G5937

&

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40668

Or just google 'razor sharp system' for all the info you want on the paper wheels. I purchased them a year or two ago and gave up on them after coming close to ruining an expensive knife. I think I'll dust off the outfit and give it another try soon. Plenty of highly respected people use and swear by this system.

[particle]

Tal none of the kinks work. They all go to a add site.

There is an extra "http://" at the beginning of the links. Just click his links, then remove the first "http://" and the address should work fine.

[dirtclod]

Thanks Jeeperaz and Particle. The links worked doing that. I've had the paper wheels for about 10 years and never had any luck with them but i think i'll try again.

[AZ09]

Tal none of the kinks work. They all go to a add site.

ooops! Sorry about the poor quality control on my links It was late and the feature was new to me.LOL

Thank-you guys for fixin' things..

The paper wheels are truly a breeze to master

Tal~

[Pelallito]

Hello,

To give you another option- Go to this site for another way to sharpen-http://knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/776367/tp/1/

Jerry Hossom posted that a long time ago and I have recently tried it and it works very well.

Good luck.

Fred