Picking Out A First Sewing Machine

[JLSleather]

Here's my thing, Doug and all ... if you can buy a decent machine that does what you need it to at a bargain price, then do it.

ONCE in the last year I paid more than I needed to ... couple of boys were gonna go clear the sidewalks at a freind's house I didn't have time to get to (she's 60-something, and stubborn, and WILL go shovel herself if you let her). Boys gave me a price that was HALF of reasonable, and I paid them the going rate anyway ... cuz they were kids and would later realize their price was WAY too cheap).

I recommend that you insist on seeing it work and getting the manual. Many of the ads I see proclaim how you can download the manual, or it's "easy to get". Fine ... then let them download it or "get" it, and produce it with the machine.

If you're buying a used vehicle, it's not the salesman's job to teach you to drive. But you'd still test drive it. You might even take it to a mechanic who knows more than you, and has all those fancy tools to diagnose it.

I DON'T own the bigger boat my wife said we need (she's right) because the guy looked all offended that I wanted to put it on the lake and SEE it work. Sorry ... fancy signs and shiny web sites don't mean anything here.

[Johanna]

Fifteen years ago a friend needed money and offered us a "Singer that would sew leather" for $400. We had a busy shop, and we snatched it up. It took awhile, but John got it humming, and he could sew anything on that machine as graceful as a ballerina. That old Singer is a mattress machine, and sews something like 750 stitches per minute. It scares the hell out me. After he died, I never messed with it. I always did enjoy sewing by hand.

Fast forward and I meet Jerry Zonis, the owner of Artisan. He sat me down at one of his machines and I was sewing leather like a pro in less han ten minutes. When we bought the Singer, a comparable machine to the Artisan one would have been around $5K. In John's experienced hands, the Singer worked just fine. I could have easily sewn my arm to a side of saddle skirting before he could have dialed 911. A complete idiot like me can thread an Artisan and sew- and to be fair, this is true of all the dealers- Artisan, Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew and Tippmann for sure- you can call them up and say "Hey, what's wrong here?" or send them a picture and they will answer you in understandable plain English. Jerry, Steve, Ryan & Bob Kovar, Ronnie and Bob Tippmann are all easy to talk to and they will tell you what you need to have to get the job done, and how to get things working if you mess up. I know all these guys, and they are knowledgeable and friendly.

So if the choice is to buy an old machine and tinker with it because you want to, great. But if you need to step up production in the shop and go to the next level, you can buy a brand new machine that suits your needs from a company that offers service after the sale for a lot less than you could 20 years ago. The Singer has a lovely 4 foot long work table that has a bunch of crap piled on it right now.

For novices like me, there is a lot to be said for speed reducer motors. Until I met one of them, a Tippmann Boss was the only machine I felt comfortable operating. Tippmans are reliable sturdy machines, but you may not want to pull the handle for every stitch. I've seen the Cobras and Artisans and Cowboys and Techsews sew through tough leather as sweet as you please. Go to a dealer or a tradeshow and test drive the new machines, talk to the dealers and be prepared to answer "What do you want to sew?"

If you want to play with some old machines, PM me and I will send you some names of members here who do that for a living- buy old machines and fix them up for resale. They are great guys, too, and if you get stuck finding parts, they will know where to find one. There are some hustlers out there, too. I can tell you who NOT to buy a used anything from.

DougVL, I think everyone here is pretty much saying the same thing- since new machines are affordable and dependable, there isn't any need to buy one to work on unless you want to. If you want to do that, it can be a fun hobby, just like fixing up old cars. If the leatherworker just wants to sew, he should call or visit a dealer and get several opinions before making a choice, just like he would if he were buying a new car.

Johanna

[DougVL]

Lots more interesting comments! And great ideas for new people to read. Especially the recounting of user's learning experiences. Those were sort of the point of my original posting

The statement "There is nothing wrong with them, provided they do what the user wants" made above says it the best of all. As a couple have said here, you don't always even know what you want. I was just suggesting a way to find out what you want, not how to make money fast. And I hoped to point out that there are amateurs who want to do leatherwork and just plain can't spend multiple thousands of dollars. If a machine can pay for itself, then the only reasonable thing to do is get the absolute best. My career has been in getting industrial machinery working and working well. Some included design for efficiency and for operator convenience. I have plenty of high quality equipment in my own home shop. But there are still a lot of things that just don't justify professional grade tools - things used only occasionally for light duty work. My first table saw was a light weight little benchtop model that used an 8 inch blade and a washing machine motor. It did good work, and I still have it. It's handy to be able to take outside or into the garage. I can't do that with the big, cast iron 12 inch one that's in my basement shop now.

So far every response here has been about using a sewing machine for producing income. Part of my premise was that this is not always the case, and responding to any inquirer with the answer that the only thing to get is the brand new, top of the line machine doesn't always help. Describe some alternatives, and maybe the reasons why the alternatives are less desirable.

I've done a fair amount of projects for myself, of light weight leather (like garment or upholstery weight) with an ordinary, ancient straight-stitch home sewing machine. Using a wedge point needle didn't make much difference, but I didn't know at the time, so I got some. The machine worked great and made just what I wanted. But I didn't try to make holsters or boots, or even knife sheaths with it.

Last year I found someone moving with very short notice and forced to sell a Singer 112W139. I'd kind of wanted a double needle machine for a few projects, mostly non-leather. For example, need a machine for sewing thick but soft, loose fabric. There's a clothing project or two of fleece, and 3 or 4 layers of that just won't fit under the presser foot of most machine. Including this one! Its foot lift is only about 1/4 inch. From reading specs on various 111 & 112 series machines, I had expected at least 3/8, and maybe even 1/2 inch. Oops. I didn't have time for research on this one - seller had only a day left. And the manual for this model doesn't include the spec for foot lift, although many of the Singer manuals do.

I found that a clutch motor is unusable for me. I want to make little things, with short seams and lots of corners and curves. For tarps or things with long, straight seams it would be fine. I put a huge pulley on it and slowed it down to about 1/3 of full speed and now it's not too bad. But until I can come up with some spare cash for a servo motor with needle positioning, I won't be using it much at all. If I can come up with a way to make money with it, then I could get the servo. I've considered trying to make boat covers with it - that's what the seller had originally intended. But that's a whole 'nother learning curve I haven't been ready to follow yet.

Someone here already mentioned downloading manuals. There is a huge number of them available from Singer, both operator's and parts books. And some service manuals. For those people who have an interest in having one, and for people wanting to know the specs and features of machines they can't see in person, it's a big help. Most of the Singer manuals describe the uses or products which that specific machine was designed for, which is also helpful.

I don't understand why so many responses seem to be about fixing broken machines. I only said that it helps ANY machine operator a LOT to understand how their machine works and just what it can and cannot do. Whether the machine is a stove, oven, mixer, radial arm saw, concrete compactor, sewing machine or dump truck. Especially a welder!

I also do not recommend buying used equipment through ebay. At nearly best, the seller is honest, but just doesn't know anything about what they're selling and can't give useful information to answer good questions. And of course, sewing machines aren't very practical to ship, either. I did buy one machine that way, my 29K51, though. It came heavily packed but still the bobbin winder got broken off.

A nice feature for a web site would be a comprehensive listing of machines suitable for leather, with both their capabilities and their limitations listed and described. I was looking at the Ferdco site and did see a listing of light, medium and heavy stitchers and their thickness capacity, and thread weights for some of them.. I'd like to see something that also included the type of feed, needle series and useable sizes, weight, needle-to-arm distance, round or flat bed, useable thread weights and needle sizes, etc. A WIKI somewhere would be nice, so it could be updated by anyone with information to add. Maybe the dealers would even participate and describe the differences in the special parts they use instead of the standard stock ones. For example, Ferdco says they start with a 440 frame casting and put in their own parts. On the other end of the scale, some other 440-based model will cost less but have all Chinese parts. Some machines are made in Taiwan and seem to be better quality but higher priced. Sorting all this out would be very helpful.

It's interesting to see how many responses to this posting have shown up this quickly. And it points out that apparently just about all the users here are professionals who depend on their machine(s) for a living. That wasn't my assumption in the beginning, and isn't the case for me. But it's interesting to learn, and find out how many people there are out there in cyberland who do leatherwork for money! I'd think it to be a rewarding career.

A couple more thoughts to toss in here - - - -

This posting was about picking a FIRST machine, with the idea that a progression to better is a good thing. (I did especially like JSLeather's posting here.)

And a fine, high-grade tool is a great pleasure to use, in its own right. I have a couple older Leica cameras that are just fabulous, even though not often used in this digital age.

DougVL

Fifteen years ago a friend needed money and offered us a "Singer that would sew leather" for $400. We had a busy shop, and we snatched it up. It took awhile, but John got it humming, and he could sew anything on that machine as graceful as a ballerina. That old Singer is a mattress machine, and sews something like 750 stitches per minute. It scares the hell out me. After he died, I never messed with it. I always did enjoy sewing by hand.

Fast forward and I meet Jerry Zonis, the owner of Artisan. He sat me down at one of his machines and I was sewing leather like a pro in less han ten minutes. When we bought the Singer, a comparable machine to the Artisan one would have been around $5K. In John's experienced hands, the Singer worked just fine. I could have easily sewn my arm to a side of saddle skirting before he could have dialed 911. A complete idiot like me can thread an Artisan and sew- and to be fair, this is true of all the dealers- Artisan, Cobra, Cowboy, Techsew and Tippmann for sure- you can call them up and say "Hey, what's wrong here?" or send them a picture and they will answer you in understandable plain English. Jerry, Steve, Ryan & Bob Kovar, Ronnie and Bob Tippmann are all easy to talk to and they will tell you what you need to have to get the job done, and how to get things working if you mess up. I know all these guys, and they are knowledgeable and friendly.

So if the choice is to buy an old machine and tinker with it because you want to, great. But if you need to step up production in the shop and go to the next level, you can buy a brand new machine that suits your needs from a company that offers service after the sale for a lot less than you could 20 years ago. The Singer has a lovely 4 foot long work table that has a bunch of crap piled on it right now.

For novices like me, there is a lot to be said for speed reducer motors. Until I met one of them, a Tippmann Boss was the only machine I felt comfortable operating. Tippmans are reliable sturdy machines, but you may not want to pull the handle for every stitch. I've seen the Cobras and Artisans and Cowboys and Techsews sew through tough leather as sweet as you please. Go to a dealer or a tradeshow and test drive the new machines, talk to the dealers and be prepared to answer "What do you want to sew?"

If you want to play with some old machines, PM me and I will send you some names of members here who do that for a living- buy old machines and fix them up for resale. They are great guys, too, and if you get stuck finding parts, they will know where to find one. There are some hustlers out there, too. I can tell you who NOT to buy a used anything from.

DougVL, I think everyone here is pretty much saying the same thing- since new machines are affordable and dependable, there isn't any need to buy one to work on unless you want to. If you want to do that, it can be a fun hobby, just like fixing up old cars. If the leatherworker just wants to sew, he should call or visit a dealer and get several opinions before making a choice, just like he would if he were buying a new car.

Johanna

[Wizcrafts]

I propose that the dealers here contact their parts and casing suppliers and see if they can come up with a portable walking foot machine that is already beefed up and modified to sew real leather, up to 3/8" - without needing to add another flywheel, or grind the teeth off of the pressor feet. Such a machine would be a great first machine for casual leathercrafters or those attending flea markets and shows. Make no more than 50 pounds in a carrying case and sell it for under $500 and you'd have a winner, in my opinion.

[Art]

You of course want compound feed too.

That would be a very popular machine. When I can get the pig to fly, I'll have him bring one right over to you. The three main reasons are:

50 lbs.

$500

Plenty of power.

Ain't gonna happen.

There isn't enough margin (or any), and there isn't enough market.

Art

I propose that the dealers here contact their parts and casing suppliers and see if they can come up with a portable walking foot machine that is already beefed up and modified to sew real leather, up to 3/8" - without needing to add another flywheel, or grind the teeth off of the pressor feet. Such a machine would be a great first machine for casual leathercrafters or those attending flea markets and shows. Make no more than 50 pounds in a carrying case and sell it for under $500 and you'd have a winner, in my opinion.

[bruce johnson]

Doug,

Good points and going back to your original post - the more commonly available used machines will sew leather on some scale. It is a different deal sewing veg tan vs. garment leather and I think that is the dividing line between readily available cheap machines. The average hobbyist may be doing some chaps or garment leather work and those Singers in several models will sure enough work. Once you get into carving on vegtan - belts, checkbooks, planners, sheaths, etc - the number of used lower cost machines drops. This seems to be the most common application that most of the people asking on this forum are doing. I'd expect that is why you got some of the repsonses you did. The Adler flatbeds come to mind as not being all that rare and doing the job, and sometimes can be bought pretty right. Condition is the key, and parts are a little pricey sometimes. Get into much heavier and the bigger Adlers, Singer 7s, needle and awl machines, and those oldies are the used machines that fit. The problem is finding one and finding parts and advice. I may be wrong here, but I think the closest industrial sewing machine repair guy with any reputation is 80 miles away from me.

There may be other trading boards, but Ferdco seems like it is one of the more visited ones. That's how I got my Adler sold - lots of calls the first week and I took the offer from the guy who would pick it up. Still most of the stuff listed there is not cheap for the casual user.

When I was trading up from the Boss to a powered machine I called Ferdco from the ad in the back of Western Horseman and got a 440 for no other reason than it was the cheapest powered machine sold. It was not the right machine for me - starting with the speed, and the feeding mechanism. I just called and ordered it - didn't know enough to ask the right questions. When it wasn't doing what I needed a machine for, you are right with the first post- I was ready to appreciate a better one. I called Ron at Ferdco and got my first lesson. That was long enough ago, that hobbyists just didn't buy leather machines from dealers to any extent. When someone called a dealer, they already had experience and knew what they wanted. Ron took a lot of time and went over machine types, feed, speed, thread size, and tables with me. He offered to trade the 440 head for a used Adler 205-64 head, sent along a smaller pulley for the motor (servos were pricey then, not $150 or whatever they are now), and made the deal work for both of us. I appreciated that and remain a loyal customer.

I asked him why someone hadn't written an article on sewing machine basics for someone like me in LCSJ. It had been offered and declined. The journal is kind of funny about suppliers or dealers writing articles, or mention of some specifics by some authors. It is a business decision for them, they don't want to offend other advertisers. As far as a wiki-type deal on sewing machines - great. I'd sure like to see it. As it stands right now, this forum is probably as close as it gets - dealers and users, full time makers and hobbyists.

Wiz,

I don't know of anyone who has bought the Singer 550, but would be interested. The local sewing machine and vaccum shop had one set up a couple years ago. The owner had me sit down and run it. It did sew some pretty hard skirting leather, and seemed to be happy doing it. The limiting factor is probably thread size.

[Wizcrafts]

You of course want compound feed too.

That would be a very popular machine. When I can get the pig to fly, I'll have him bring one right over to you. The three main reasons are:

50 lbs.

$500

Plenty of power.

Ain't gonna happen.

There isn't enough margin (or any), and there isn't enough market.

Art

They are already out there Art. Many sewing machine vendors are selling unmodified portable walking foot machines now for well under $400. The buyers can then purchase a Monster Wheel from SailRite for about $125, plus postage and it adds the punching power and smooth slow speed needed to sew veg-tan projects up to about 3/8" - after grinding the bottom teeth off the pressor feet. My idea was that perhaps some of our dealers could get these machines modified at the factory to sew leather, rather than vinyl. They would have smooth bottom pressor feet (to avoid marking the top of the leather), heavier top tension and pressure bar springs, a slightly heavier take-up lever and a wider, heavier flywheel already installed.

Unmodified, these machines now weigh 41 pounds, in the carrying case. Add another 9 pounds for a larger, heavier flywheel (which slows the top speed & increases torque) and you've got a 50 pound mini workhorse, perfect for shows, flea markets and hobby sewers.

They are not triple feed, but double feed machines. The outer pressor foot moves in time with the feed dogs. This is still better than a straight stitch machine. Having the heavier springs, flywheels and take-up parts made and pre-installed at the same factory that produces those machines would be cheaper than purchasing a standard mini walker and then purchasing or modifying those additional parts, later on.

There was a discussion on this very forum where some members have increased the height of the pressor feet to sew thicker leather with heavier thread than the standard portable machine can manage. Others have discussed how adding a Monster Wheel allowed them to sew thick leather. This could be done at the factory for a lot less cost, making it possible to sell already modified machines suitable for hobbyists and traveling leathercrafters lacking the budget for a full size industrial machine.

Just a thought.

NB: These suggestions and ramblings are aimed at selling a decent portable machine to a leather crafter who wants to get into sewing, at home or on location, but lacks the budget to move into a full-fledged heavy leather sewing machine. It is a cost-effective alternative to a pull lever portable stitcher and easier to use for long runs. There have been quite a few inquiries made on this forum, over the last few months, for machines capable of sewing up to 3/8" of real leather, easily controllable, at about the $500 price point.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Wizcrafts

[Wizcrafts]

Wiz,

I don't know of anyone who has bought the Singer 550, but would be interested. The local sewing machine and vaccum shop had one set up a couple years ago. The owner had me sit down and run it. It did sew some pretty hard skirting leather, and seemed to be happy doing it. The limiting factor is probably thread size.

The Singer 550 is a home sewing machine, not an industrial model. You will need an industrial sewing machine that was designed to handle and feed heavier thread, that uses larger needles and has a separate motor capable of driving the needle/thread through heavy leather. It will need either a clutch or servo motor, rated at about 400 watts, or more. The exception is the SewPro 500GR that is rated at about 300 watts, but has a built-in 2:1 speed reducer and a 50 mm pulley. I have one hooked up under my table, driving my National 300N walking foot machine. This setup can sew through 7/16" of belt leather, with #207 thread and a #24 leather point needle.

[CowboyBob]

Well I might as well put in my $.02 ,we have been selling these portable machines w/a walking foot to alot of inmates for sewing leather crafts,in alot of the prisons they aren't allowed to have a industrial machine w/a large table so these work for them they come in 7 & 9" arm length w/straight stich & zig-zag.

They have a 1.5 amp motor vs a 1 amp motor on a reg home machine,they also have a cog tooth belts,like a timing belt on a car that doesn't slip.

Along with a little speed reducer that give it the punching power.

We even have an old machine (mini-walker)we use as a rental for people to sew upholstery with.Very easy to handle for them too!

They aren't the greatest or smoothest machine I've ever ran BUT they get the job done @ a low price.

Bob

[Art]

[quote name=Wizcrafts' date='13 May 2010 - 06:19 PM'

Well Wiz,

If it is such a great idea, why not do it. Lets see you come up with and support a Sailrite clone with monster wheel, 1.5 amp motor, smooth feet, heavier springs, and everything you want for under $500 (your own words). Sounds good, I'll take the first one, or honest to ghod, I'd probably buy the same thing from Sailrite for $649,

http://www.allbrands.com/products/abp03447-0758.html

because I know they can support it. After you've eaten a few of the returns and go out of business, I'll still be using the Sailrite. The extra margin of profit means the company stays in business, has parts, supports their product. One of the caveats is to never develop anything new out of China, someone will be marketing your product before you get the first one to sell. Even if developed here, there is a very short window of opportunity before someone has knocked it off.

BTW, Artisan tried to sell a Sailrite clone a few years back, had it at one of the IFoLG shows. Obviously didn't work for them, never seen it again. When the companies like Allbrands get in the picture, you can't expect many dealers to carry a product like that unless they can add value to the picture, and of course charge for it.

Art

timestamp='1273789151' post='154364]

They are already out there Art. Many sewing machine vendors are selling unmodified portable walking foot machines now for well under $400. The buyers can then purchase a Monster Wheel from SailRite for about $125, plus postage and it adds the punching power and smooth slow speed needed to sew veg-tan projects up to about 3/8" - after grinding the bottom teeth off the pressor feet. My idea was that perhaps some of our dealers could get these machines modified at the factory to sew leather, rather than vinyl. They would have smooth bottom pressor feet (to avoid marking the top of the leather), heavier top tension and pressure bar springs, a slightly heavier take-up lever and a wider, heavier flywheel already installed.

Unmodified, these machines now weigh 41 pounds, in the carrying case. Add another 9 pounds for a larger, heavier flywheel (which slows the top speed & increases torque) and you've got a 50 pound mini workhorse, perfect for shows, flea markets and hobby sewers.

They are not triple feed, but double feed machines. The outer pressor foot moves in time with the feed dogs. This is still better than a straight stitch machine. Having the heavier springs, flywheels and take-up parts made and pre-installed at the same factory that produces those machines would be cheaper than purchasing a standard mini walker and then purchasing or modifying those additional parts, later on.

There was a discussion on this very forum where some members have increased the height of the pressor feet to sew thicker leather with heavier thread than the standard portable machine can manage. Others have discussed how adding a Monster Wheel allowed them to sew thick leather. This could be done at the factory for a lot less cost, making it possible to sell already modified machines suitable for hobbyists and traveling leathercrafters lacking the budget for a full size industrial machine.

Just a thought.

NB: These suggestions and ramblings are aimed at selling a decent portable machine to a leather crafter who wants to get into sewing, at home or on location, but lacks the budget to move into a full-fledged heavy leather sewing machine. It is a cost-effective alternative to a pull lever portable stitcher and easier to use for long runs. There have been quite a few inquiries made on this forum, over the last few months, for machines capable of sewing up to 3/8" of real leather, easily controllable, at about the $500 price point.

Well Wiz,

If it is such a great idea, why not do it. Lets see you come up with and support a Sailrite clone with monster wheel, 1.5 amp motor, smooth feet, heavier springs, and everything you want for under $500 (your own words). Sounds good, I'll take the first one, or honest to ghod, I'd probably buy the same thing from Sailrite for $649,

http://www.allbrands.com/products/abp03447-0758.html

because I know they can support it. After you've eaten a few of the returns and go out of business, I'll still be using the Sailrite. The extra margin of profit means the company stays in business, has parts, supports their product. One of the caveats is to never develop anything new out of China, someone will be marketing your product before you get the first one to sell. Even if developed here, there is a very short window of opportunity before someone has knocked it off.

BTW, Artisan tried to sell a Sailrite clone a few years back, had it at one of the IFoLG shows. Obviously didn't work for them, never seen it again. When the companies like Allbrands get in the picture, you can't expect many dealers to carry a product like that unless they can add value to the picture, and of course charge for it.

Art

[quote name=Wizcrafts' date='13 May 2010 - 06:19 PM'

timestamp='1273789151' post='154364]

They are already out there Art. Many sewing machine vendors are selling unmodified portable walking foot machines now for well under $400. The buyers can then purchase a Monster Wheel from SailRite for about $125, plus postage and it adds the punching power and smooth slow speed needed to sew veg-tan projects up to about 3/8" - after grinding the bottom teeth off the pressor feet. My idea was that perhaps some of our dealers could get these machines modified at the factory to sew leather, rather than vinyl. They would have smooth bottom pressor feet (to avoid marking the top of the leather), heavier top tension and pressure bar springs, a slightly heavier take-up lever and a wider, heavier flywheel already installed.

Unmodified, these machines now weigh 41 pounds, in the carrying case. Add another 9 pounds for a larger, heavier flywheel (which slows the top speed & increases torque) and you've got a 50 pound mini workhorse, perfect for shows, flea markets and hobby sewers.

They are not triple feed, but double feed machines. The outer pressor foot moves in time with the feed dogs. This is still better than a straight stitch machine. Having the heavier springs, flywheels and take-up parts made and pre-installed at the same factory that produces those machines would be cheaper than purchasing a standard mini walker and then purchasing or modifying those additional parts, later on.

There was a discussion on this very forum where some members have increased the height of the pressor feet to sew thicker leather with heavier thread than the standard portable machine can manage. Others have discussed how adding a Monster Wheel allowed them to sew thick leather. This could be done at the factory for a lot less cost, making it possible to sell already modified machines suitable for hobbyists and traveling leathercrafters lacking the budget for a full size industrial machine.

Just a thought.

NB: These suggestions and ramblings are aimed at selling a decent portable machine to a leather crafter who wants to get into sewing, at home or on location, but lacks the budget to move into a full-fledged heavy leather sewing machine. It is a cost-effective alternative to a pull lever portable stitcher and easier to use for long runs. There have been quite a few inquiries made on this forum, over the last few months, for machines capable of sewing up to 3/8" of real leather, easily controllable, at about the $500 price point.