Moderator Art Posted May 3, 2008 Moderator Report Posted May 3, 2008 Hi Kevin, All the great "innovations" in Western (including quickdraw) and "concealed carry" holsters have been made. Nobody cares about duty gear anymore as the liability is just too dear, let the "Big Boys" play in that ballpark. Anything innovative was probably done years ago in our world and patents are as such of no concern. A holster is pretty much a holster and I would worry more about making one so much "like" a particular gun that you infringed the gunmakers copyright (not patent), however I have never seen or heard of that being claimed. With prominent holster makers "teaching" and producing videos on holster design in is inevitable for two (or more) different makers to produce something that looks identical with no knowledge of each other's work. Given that folks have been out there making and using these things for over 150 years and you magnify that probability; add to that the fact that handguns just aren't that different, probably because hands haven't changed that much. We all start out with a basic pattern (the handgun) and go from there, the "from there" makes the difference. Copy whomever's pattern you want and put some "from there" into it. As far as asking someone's permission to use a "design", if the pattern is that unique then you should be paying a royalty, however it is usually not hard to look in the catalogs and books to find something very similar (identical maybe?). Look at some of the sites on the following list and see if they are making something similar to what you are making (no matter where you got the pattern from) and you will find (more likely than not) more than one of these guys making it. The question is who copied from whom? http://www.alessiholsters.com http://www.alessileather.com http://www.alfonsosgunleather.com http://www.akerleather.com http://www.andrewsleather.com http://www.arredondoaccessories.com http://www.banderagunleather.com http://www.bellcharteroakholsters.com http://www.blackhawk.com http://www.blackhillsleather.com http://www.blade-tech.com http://www.bianchi-intl.com http://www.brigadegunleather.com http://www.bulmangunleather.com http://www.buybrownholsters.com http://www.c-rusty.com http://www.comp-tac.com http://www.concealco.com http://www.delfatti.com http://www.desantisholster.com http://www.dillonprecision.com http://www.donhume.com http://www.epsaddlery.com http://www.findesigns.net http://www.fobusholster.com http://www.gouldusa.com http://www.haugenhandgunleather.com http://www.highnoonholsters.com http://www.holsters.org http://www.holsters.com http://www.holstersplus.com http://www.kirkpatrickleather.com http://www.klnullholsters.com http://www.kramerleather.com http://www.lasports.biz/products.htm http://www.littlefeatherleather.com http://www.miltsparks.com http://www.mitchrosen.com http://www.nelsonleather.com http://www.palehorseholsters.com http://www.politesociety.com http://www.phalanxarms.com http://www.pwlusa.com http://www.raftersgunleather.com http://www.rangergunleather.com http://www.rfholsters.com/rfholsters/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=10 http://www.safariland.com http://www.sidearmor.com http://www.shado.com http://www.shootingsystems.com http://www.smartcarry.com http://www.stallionleather.com http://www.strong-holster.com http://www.stellarrigs.com http://www.sunriseleather.com http://www.tacticalholsters.com/gcode.htm http://www.tac-pro.com http://www.tdlabs.com http://www.tedblocker.com http://www.thunderwear.com http://www.uncle-mikes.com http://www.usgalco.com http://www.vegaholster.com http://www.wildbillsconcealment.com Art Thanks for the input everyone. I know that some people can be impationed by topic like this, that is why I ask. I am not so good that anybody would want to copy me so I guess the concern for my designs are many years off. I have no intenton of coping directly others but the suggestion of contacting the makers that are similar in design is a good one as well. Quote For heaven's sakes pilgrim, make yourself a strop!
Members K-Man Posted May 3, 2008 Members Report Posted May 3, 2008 Patents do exist for some of the holsters. Bianchi has a multitude of them. Some of the holster makers mentioned in the above list do have patents on some of their products. Some of the holster makers mentioned in the above list don't care about such rights and blatantly copy others. To each their own, but it is generally frowned upon within the custom holster maker industry to do that. Making a copy of any holster for one's own personal use is not the issue. It's when you copy/make the holster and transfer it to another for something of value in return. Just my $.01. Quote
Members sfcdan Posted May 10, 2008 Members Report Posted May 10, 2008 Adding to this topic, can any one explain the liabilities of holster making? I've been doing leather work for approximately one year, 6 months ago I found this website, which I can't stop reading since. I finally moved on to holster making. Since my first holster 3 weeks ago, my friends have constantly bugged me to make one for them. I'm hesitant to make anything for any one because I don't know how liable I am with my products. Again, if any one can explain it to me, it would be great. Quote
David Posted May 11, 2008 Report Posted May 11, 2008 (edited) Interesting subject, I would agree about making your own patters and assembling the way you normally would. I wouldn't worry too much about patent infringement if you save all your patterns and trial and errors. Let's face it, you are going to make....what...maybe 30 or so holsters? I doubt that a company would buy one of your hand made holsters just to tear it apart to see if it is exactly like theirs....Now if you were making 30,000 holsters....you better worry....A LOT! And find a patent attorney!! (the penalty for willful patent infringement is triple the damages)! Let's say you swiped some big company's holster design and made an exact copy of their product. The company proves in court that they make $20 per holster. You would owe them $20 X 3 (triple damages) X 30,000 holsters (if you made that many)....that is a fine of 1.8 million dollars. So you might want to think twice about doing that. David Theobald 40 years in the patent illustration business. Edited May 11, 2008 by David Quote
Members Shorts Posted May 11, 2008 Members Report Posted May 11, 2008 Adding to this topic, can any one explain the liabilities of holster making? I've been doing leather work for approximately one year, 6 months ago I found this website, which I can't stop reading since. I finally moved on to holster making. Since my first holster 3 weeks ago, my friends have constantly bugged me to make one for them. I'm hesitant to make anything for any one because I don't know how liable I am with my products. Again, if any one can explain it to me, it would be great. In this litigous society we live in, its a very smart idea to have insurance. Also, depending on your entity status, its even smarter to have insurance. I'm currently setting up my things too so its all fresh on my mind. Quote
David Posted May 11, 2008 Report Posted May 11, 2008 Adding to this topic, can any one explain the liabilities of holster making? I've been doing leather work for approximately one year, 6 months ago I found this website, which I can't stop reading since. I finally moved on to holster making. Since my first holster 3 weeks ago, my friends have constantly bugged me to make one for them. I'm hesitant to make anything for any one because I don't know how liable I am with my products. Again, if any one can explain it to me, it would be great. A complaintaint would have to prove that your inferior holster caused some sort of damage to him. I think that would be difficult unless your holster can cause someone to take off the safety and also cause them to pull the trigger. Stranger things have happened but judges are getting wise to these kinds of liability scams now. Of course you could protect yourself a bit by forming a LLC (limited liability company) Not too expensive but will probably require an attorney. David Theobald Quote
Members K-Man Posted May 11, 2008 Members Report Posted May 11, 2008 (edited) It only takes one holster to constitute a patent infringement. And while there are some companies who hold the patent that would not bother with such a violation, there are other companies that will. Worth the risk? That's ultimately up to you to decide. It's best to do the research with respect to a patented holster design and/or feature and avoid the risk IMO. Edited May 11, 2008 by K-Man Quote
Contributing Member Jordan Posted May 11, 2008 Contributing Member Report Posted May 11, 2008 That is one of the toughest areas of product development for an artisan, trying to figure out how many stupid ways people will misuse your product or any product for that matter, kinda like the story about the guy who put his brand new motor home on cruise control and went into the back to make a samich LOL. One I know did happen was a semi driver that tried to close the side access door by stepping out on the running board, and he fell off. lucky the dummy was in a parking lot at very low speed, but he still got run over, didn't walk to well for awhile after that. Quote
Members custom79 Posted July 19, 2008 Members Report Posted July 19, 2008 You might want to have a look at the site I've included in this post. This craftsmans work does seem similar to the photos you've shown. It's always best to be aware of what others have put together. http://rlcompanyusa.stores.yahoo.net/beltholsters2.html Best regards. C79 Quote
Members TKanaley Posted September 14, 2008 Members Report Posted September 14, 2008 However,in an event we had here, a member touted his 'new' design to be made for Wilson Combat. Tony K. was notified and rebuffed the guy's claim by posting pics of the holsters that he's been making for a good while. There was enough difference in the design to be technically different (1 snap vs. 2), but the whole thing was clearly a remake of Tony's design. Perhaps the worst outcome for the guy was that Tony K. knows Bill Wilson personally, and intended to give him a call to inform him of the 'knock-off' status of the holsters. If that played out, then the order could have been canceled, and the guy's reputation ruined. Incidentally, it was pre-crash, and I don't know the actual outcome of the squabble. My point is that there could be far reaching consequences for infringement that don't even include the law. Personally, I'd be just giddy if someone decided to exactly copy my design....as long as that person didn't cut into my profits I don't know that the guy's reputation was ruined, but I did speak with Bill Wilson and if you peruse the Wilson site, you will note the holster in question is no longer available. Bill didn't have to discontinue that model and I didn't ask him to. That was a decision he made probably based on the fact that Wilson has had enough of his own product designs "borrowed" to have a sympathetic ear to the dilemma. As far as copying other designs go. As been mentioned by another poster, I don't think it's too much trouble for one maker to give credit to another where credit is due. Personally, I don't too much care if a maker copies a product of our innovation as long as they at least make an attempt to improve on the design. When Milt first asked Bruce Nelson for permission to make the Summer Special, Milt didn't intend just to copy it. Milt added sight rails and later a second loop which differentiated it quite a bit from the original. Even still we have always given Bruce the recognition as the original designer. If a maker can't replicate one of our designs without being blatant, or at least give credit, or ask permission. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it, but they shouldn't ever expect my respect as a peer (not like they would care anyway). I know of two current makers that pretty much owe their entire existence to the innovations of Del Fatti and Sparks. They won't admit to "borrowing", much less give credit, because to do so would be like admitting they have nothing to bring to the table other than what they can steal from the hard work of others. Tis sad, but true. I would say, be respectful and try to bring something to the table instead of just being content to sit at it. We all have to start somewhere and sometimes it evolves around the ideas of others, but that's no reason to limit yourself and let everyone else do the thinking for you. To quote: "there's only so many ways to wrap a piece of leather around a handgun" That may be true to an extent, but in the 25 years I have been at this professionally, I've managed to come up with quite a few unique ideas of my own. Don't ever use that as an excuse. Tony Quote http://www.miltsparks.com. Second best is not an option
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