Slaughter Free Leather Not Selling As Expected

[whinewine]

This feels like another example of good intentions leading to a really bad idea. If "non-slaughter" leather is selling at all, it is still selling better than it should, if you ask me.

First, the entire concept is based on wrong assumptions. The idea that it should somehow be more ethical must be based on some Disneyesque misconception about "Billie Moo´s old age" where old Billie totters about in thick, green grass until she quietly falls asleep and never wakes up. Real life is very much different, I´m afraid. Should a cow live to old age (and they can get quite old!) unaffected by injury and disease (unlikely) and the owner can afford to let a cow who does not produce any calves or milk just walk around for years (also unlikely, given the economic conditions most farmers face) her teeth will eventually become worn down and she will slowly starve to death. And this is the best case scenario! The most likely is that she will die from some injury or disease. Intestinal parasites, kidney failure, infections or simply neglected care… you name it! Cows also have a tendency to eat things that should not be eaten; some of them are sharp and can puncture their stomach or intestines. Things like plastic stay in the stomach forever and disturb digestion and eating.

In other words: Letting a cow just die of what is so euphemistically called "natural reasons" is lightyears away from being ethical – it is downright cruel! In civilized countries there are laws against cruelty to animals. In Sweden, where I live, it is against the law to use any part of an animal that has died under such circumstances. Non-slaughter leather would be illegal here. (Forget about any export here, in other words... )

I find no ethical advantage whatsoever in non-slaughter leather if you look at the whole picture, not just the kill/no kill part. If anything, I find it hypocritical to think of it as more "noble" or "humane" to let the animal die in any of a number of highly unpleasant, often painful, and most often slow ways. You just don´t want any part of the "dirty work", that´s all. If we were talking about leather from an animal that has been given a good life, well cared for (in other words the "happy animals" that Ray is mentioning), and then killed in a quick and painless way while it was still healthy – then you would be talking really ethical leather! That would interest me.

Surveys may show many things – depending on how you phrase the questions you can, intentionally or not, direct the answers just about anywhere. Especially when ethical issues are concerned, people have a tendency to say what they would want to do, not what they will actually do. When the time comes to open the wallet, the two might differ significantly. Words, as we all know, are cheap – actions cost...

OK, the ethical advantage of non-slaughter leather is highly disputable at best. Why does it not sell? If you ask me it is not that remarkable. Apparently one angle is to attract vegans, but consider the real situation: Vernon the Vegan is going to buy new boots. In the shoe store he faces three pairs, all pretty much the same, except on two points – material and price. The boots of conventional leather cost $100, the non-slaughter leather pair cost $500 and the "guaranteed animal-free, vegan approved" synthetic pair cost $70. I would say that the odds for Vernon going home in the $500 pair are about one in any of those numbers that are normally only used by astronomers and bankers in Zimbabwe. Or, to put it short: Dream on.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this kind of reasoning really goes against my grain.

Lasse C

But,there are people who think like that. And there are many people out there who have more money than brains :brainbleach: , who will spend according to their beliefs, no matter what the cost- those who spout rhetoric against leather while eating a $100 kobe beef hamburger; those who think that meat comes in nice shrink wrapped packages from the supermarket without considering that the animal was killed; those who are violently against hunting because the animal is shot (poor Bambi...) but don't have the ability to conceptualize starvation for an animal faced with lack of adequate food supply... and that's mild compared to the PETA folks who refuse to let reality get in the way when comes to their beliefs about how all those noble animals live in the wild (or would, if we humans would just stop killing them ...)

[StevenSiegel]

Hi,

This is me again....

First, I am not making any value judgement. These hides exist. They can either go in the dump or they can be converted to leather. I have a unique method to track custodial records of the hides from the farm/ranch to the tanner. I also have the unique ability to supply hides which are suitable for conversion to many leather articles.

I believe only animals which have died from "Mad Cow" are restricted from use of any part of their carcass. I won't argue with the fellow from Sweden. I have not done business in Sweden in a long time. Just out of curiosity , do you still raise Black & White Lowland Cattle in Scandia? In the district of Gothenburg and the whole of central Sweden, do you still raise Brown, and Brown & White Spottled Cattle? In Varmland, Dalucarlia and large parts of Norland do you still raise Dark Brown Hornless Cattle?

As far as marketing value: with the examples of: $100- conventional leather product, $500- slaughter free, $70- synthetic .... there is marketing history to indicate that SOME people really would pay the $500.

Just trying to offer something to the trade where an additional profit could be made by the maker, with the intent of helping the industry. I just believe so strongly that leather is grossly underpriced in value when compared to other commodities AND the leather worker is not generally rewarded for his efforts when compared to other industries.

Best Regards,

Steven Siegel

[bruce johnson]

I have worked both sides of this animal death deal in some pretty good numbers - slaughter, natural death - attended and not, euthanasia, gunshot for something you can't handle, etc. and am not about to argue the merits of one vs the other. A good share of the population is now removed from the farm and seeing death first hand by a few generations. They are 40ish and thanks to health care advances, both grandparents are still alive. The first death most of them personally face is their pet.

I do have some thoughts on the rest of the discussion.

I think one thing that is continuing to be overlooked and Steve just mentioned it is that animals die and these hides do exist and they can go to the tannery, get processed into another byproduct, or drug to the back pasture bonepile. These hides are still by-products. These animals all were raised with some economic or production goal in mind. They may have outlived that, or they may never have lived long enough to fulfill that. These cattle are not frolicing in the pasture or living on some pensioner farm awaiting death so they can be skinned for "slaughter free hides" as their primary goal in life. The only difference between these hides and the others is a premortem inspection (at least in the US)and being pulled off the animal in an inspected facility. The slaughter-free die and are then loaded to go to a processing facility.

Just how big that niche market is for leather coming from cattle who didn't die in a packing house I don't know. It hasn't been around long enough and explored enough to be tested yet. This is really the first time out, and for the right maker with the right clientele, it could be a bonus.

[catskin]

Interesting subject.

Now to through a cat in the tub of feathers. (as the saying around here is)

A question for Steve. Would all the horses that are dying in the US since horse slaughter for food, has been banned, from all sorts of things including starvation and the "pet" horses that are killed with a needle (by a vet ) qualify for this program?

Edited December 20, 2010 by catskin

[rawhide1]

Steve

If you get any in the 15oz. or better give me a holler. I would also take any rawhide made from the beloved horse.

Mike

[StevenSiegel]

Interesting subject.

Now to through a cat in the tub of feathers. (as the saying around here is)

A question for Steve. Would all the horses that are dying in the US since horse slaughter for food, has been banned, from all sorts of things including starvation and the "pet" horses that are killed with a needle (by a vet ) qualify for this program?

I am sorry, but this question is too close to home. We have 15 head of horses, many of which we would give away for free, but cannot because the market is "so bad". All, except for 2 are American Thoroughbreds. We don't have children and our horses, honestly, are our family. In Kentucky, horses are being let loose to run wild in the National Forest. Many people talk about locking their gates at night, not for fear that someone will steal a horse, but that someone will leave a couple more in the pasture to be fed by someone else.

From an "intellectual" standpoint, most of the horses in the US would not have hides suitable for leather production.

Edited December 20, 2010 by StevenSiegel

[catskin]

Steve I didn't mean any harm with my question, just wondered since some may not consider a needle SLAUGHTER. Being from Canada I've read some of the stories as to what some people have done with horses. And some is NOT nice.

[bkingery]

I'm just curious but has ANYONE on here bought any of these freakin hides, for the most part all anyone has to say is wheather or not its ethical or not or politically correct. I say WHO CARES and why should we, we buy leather, we use leather everyday and appreciate it for what it is The freakin skin from a dead animal, has anyone used it, is it good for anything, is it crap, I doubt it. I have read almost every post on this site about where to get good to great leather and just take a geuss where we're told to go Seigel leather HUH go figure that the guy you all are giving BS to for trying to do a good thing for all of us is one of the ones that has been doing this business for a damn longtime and I think he deserves a littl more respect than to be nagged about the politics of leather. Steve if I could afford it I would buy some just to see what it was like.

sorry had to vent

B

[StevenSiegel]

Steve I didn't mean any harm with my question, just wondered since some may not consider a needle SLAUGHTER. Being from Canada I've read some of the stories as to what some people have done with horses. And some is NOT nice.

NO Offense taken

Thanks,

Seve

[mendedbowl]

Hi Steve,

Thank you for trying to help grow the leather industry. I know you've been in the leather business a long time, so you have lots of experience and knowledge. You obviously have a vested interest in wanting the leather industry to grow, ( and so should every leatherworker ). Earlier you stated that market research indicated there was potential demand for leather goods made from this type of hide, but for some reason the people who buy from you (the leatherworkers) didn't buy the slaughter free hides as well as you had expected.

What i'm seeing from the comments being made here is that most, but not all, of the leather workers on this forum do not hold the same views about leather hides as most vegans or PETA, and they don't really see the demand for slaughter free leather goods.

Is it possible for you to share your market research with us here? let the leather workers who live in areas where the demand is higher see the potential sales they could enjoy. I'm an unrepentant capitalist; to me it's a shame to see a demand go unmet because of a lack of knowledge within the supply chain.

ken

[mendedbowl]

And on a side note for anyone interested:

personally i don't care how the animals lived, how they were treated, or how they were slaughtered and skinned. All i'm interested in is getting a good hide at a good price. It just so happens that the best way for the producer to get me a good hide at a good price also happens to be the most ethical way to treat an animal that is raised for it's meat.

For meat producers to make the most profit they must be efficient. That means feed them good, keep them healthy, and kill them quickly. The same practices that produce good quality meat for the market also produces good quality hides for the tanner.

The desire for optimum profit reduces the chances of mistreatment, because in the end any form of mistreatment costs more than it's worth.

ken

[Lasse C]

As a little extra comment I am worried that if "non-slaughter" leather is considered something very special and paid accordingly, it would be an open invitation to unscrupolous people. I doubt that "retired" milking cows would be slaughtered for meat to any significant extent. If "non-slaughter" hides from these animals pay better than conventional hides it will be economically sound to let these animals die from neglect and/or starvation rather than to take care of them properly.

Is that really what we want?

Is that a way to make leather more acceptable and more in demand?

I don´t think so. I really don´t.

Lasse C

[bkingery]

As a little extra comment I am worried that if "non-slaughter" leather is considered something very special and paid accordingly, it would be an open invitation to unscrupolous people. I doubt that "retired" milking cows would be slaughtered for meat to any significant extent. If "non-slaughter" hides from these animals pay better than conventional hides it will be economically sound to let these animals die from neglect and/or starvation rather than to take care of them properly.

Is that really what we want?

Is that a way to make leather more acceptable and more in demand?

I don´t think so. I really don´t.

Lasse C

Yes there are unscrupulous people out there but try to think about it this way, what happens to a person that is old, the skin is loose and wrinkly, what happens to a person who is starved, the skin is loose and wrinkly and has little to no resililiency, no stretch, no bounce back. Now what about the healthy person that dies suddenly the skin is just the same as it was before they died. morbid and sad but true. so why would a person that is trying to sell "non slaughtered leather" mistreat the animals they are trying to sell for it. It would just be counter productive, unless your gonna sell the skins for dog chews what would be the point. I'm sure from a tanners perspective that these hides are very much more intensive to process, and just like us the more work we do hopefully the more money we can get for our efforts.

[bruce johnson]

As a little extra comment I am worried that if "non-slaughter" leather is considered something very special and paid accordingly, it would be an open invitation to unscrupolous people. I doubt that "retired" milking cows would be slaughtered for meat to any significant extent. If "non-slaughter" hides from these animals pay better than conventional hides it will be economically sound to let these animals die from neglect and/or starvation rather than to take care of them properly.

Is that really what we want?

Is that a way to make leather more acceptable and more in demand?

I don´t think so. I really don´t.

Lasse C

Lasse,

At least in the US, retired dairy cows are slaughtered to a huge extent. They almost all go to slaughter if they can walk. It is how the dairy people recoup some of their investment, much like spent laying hens go to soup. It is also how they use "buy-out" programs to send cows to slaughter and reduce milking cow numbers in oversupply/low milk prices times.

The hides on these dairy cows tend to be bigger than beef hides although thinner. They are generally not branded (although a lot in my area are), and tend to have less scarring. They are still a by-product of the cattle industry, not the primary goal. Not many producers worry about the hide value at any point in the production of beef or dairy cattle.

[oldtimer]

As a little extra comment I am worried that if "non-slaughter" leather is considered something very special and paid accordingly, it would be an open invitation to unscrupolous people. I doubt that "retired" milking cows would be slaughtered for meat to any significant extent. If "non-slaughter" hides from these animals pay better than conventional hides it will be economically sound to let these animals die from neglect and/or starvation rather than to take care of them properly.

Is that really what we want?

Is that a way to make leather more acceptable and more in demand?

I don´t think so. I really don´t.

Lasse C

Lasse, I can assure you that all healthy milking cows in Sweden are slaughtered for meat production when their career as milk producers is over . You´ll know when you chew a chunk of "leathery" beef !

/ knut

[StevenSiegel]

Hi,

This is really amazing

I put the time into developing this product with the idea of assisting this industry.

Let me address some questions:

1) These hides exist. They can either be converted to leather or go in the dump.

2) Abuse of animals to create "slaughter-free" hides is economically absurd as a hide does not even bring 5% of the value of the carcass. A live head of cattle sent to a slaughter house will always bring more money than an animal that has died in the field. The value is in the meat.

3) An international organization and a set or standards was established over a year ago for "eco" friendly leather. This was spearheaded by Timberland. It is only a short period of time before ALL major buyers of leather will be requred to meet these standards. Google on Timberland for their blog and google on the BLC For more information. In terms of pricining, GOOGLE on things like "organic" leather, "eco" leather, etc, search a little further and you will find your existing markets and pricing examples.

4) I live "across the street" from a 35,000 acre privately owned cattle ranch, small, by most Western US, Candian or Australian standards, Cattle die from lightning strikes, broken necks, other accidents, etc. Maybe Bruce can elaborate on this better than can I.

I was always taught to be curious and to look at new ideas. I thought that is how people learn; by having an open mind and asking relevant questions. It just might be me, but I feel that the important questions are: Who//why can a maker sell a finished product made from this leather at a better profit margin. Is this leather suitable for the corresponding maker?

Anyway, our end of year special can be viewed at :

https://www.siegelofca.com/fridayspecial/112910/121410c.htm

[UKRay]

I'm completely cool with lightning strikes, broken necks etc. Sudden unexpected death happens to animals - and people - all the time. If that is what you are suggesting, Steve, then I believe you should get massive industry support because you have brought something new and innovative to our table. In fact, I'll go further than that. This leather sounds like a gift from a marketing perspective and I'm confident it has a place in our industry.

Forget about the vegans and veggies, I know a lot of ordinary middle class folk who would like to support this idea and, having spoken to several dozen of them over the past 12 hours, firmly believe this product has huge potential. The premium price tag simply makes it exclusive and there is always somebody who will pay over the odds to get something with a good story behind it.

I understand all the gripes about animals dying of old age and illness and yes, animals deserve better than that - but listen to the man guys - he isn't talking about poor ole' critters left to die in a field. IMHO he is offering you another marketplace and if you are too blind or stubborn to recognise an opportunity then you deserve to miss out on the potential benefits.

At the end of the day, nobody is asking you if you think it is a good idea. The deed is already done. The 'Happy Cow' leather exists. Use it or lose it!

Thanks, Steve (who sadly isn't paying me for this! LOL). Like I said, I wish it was available in the UK as, after some rapid research, I believe I have a significant marketplace for this kind of leather.

Ray

[UKRay]

The interesting thing would be if the additional value from a hide gleaned in this way were transferred back to the person who reared the cow. Instead of a complete loss the beast could actually be worth more than a 'standard' cow...

[StevenSiegel]

Hi Ray,

Send me your address and I'll send you a hide for free to the UK and we'll pay the freight.

The hides that are available to me can be tanned into virtually any leather which you can imagine, but they are all vegetable tanned (the tannage/fat liquors/finishing) can be modified for most any use (in the future)

The leather in stock are 7/8 & 8/9 "strap sides".... let us know if you will be using the leather for flat goods or strap goods, so we can pick accordingly.

Regards,

Steve

PS For those of you who subscribe to our email special, we frequently give away leather for free. We only ask for the person's honest opinion on the leather and perhaps a picture or two of the finished products. We offer MANY leathers which other suppliers do not offer, so this makes it easier for the public to "understand" the uses of these leathers.

[Art]

Knut,

Healthy dairy cows are generally slaughtered and used in processed meat products when their dairy production declines. By processed products I mean things like soups, stews, canned meats, sausages, meatballs, etc., etc. The primal and sub primal cuts from any bovine over about 1.5 - 2 years is generally ungraded and cuts too black for fresh commercial (food store) presentation. Like you say, it is often tough, so they process it. However, beef that dies from "natural" causes is generally taken to a rendering plant which is the only imaginable outcome other than burial, if the skins can be harvested, processing into usable leather is probably the best possible outcome. I would imagine more of the hides are chrome processed into "distressed" product than may be advertised.

Art

Lasse, I can assure you that all healthy milking cows in Sweden are slaughtered for meat production when their career as milk producers is over . You´ll know when you chew a chunk of "leathery" beef !

/ knut

[catskin]

Hi Ray,

Send me your address and I'll send you a hide for free to the UK and we'll pay the freight.

The hides that are available to me can be tanned into virtually any leather which you can imagine, but they are all vegetable tanned (the tannage/fat liquors/finishing) can be modified for most any use (in the future)

The leather in stock are 7/8 & 8/9 "strap sides".... let us know if you will be using the leather for flat goods or strap goods, so we can pick accordingly.

Regards,

Steve

PS For those of you who subscribe to our email special, we frequently give away leather for free. We only ask for the person's honest opinion on the leather and perhaps a picture or two of the finished products. We offer MANY leathers which other suppliers do not offer, so this makes it easier for the public to "understand" the uses of these leathers.

Do I qualifiy for a chunk of free leather to test in my work? I am not too fussy since it would be mostly cut in strips and sewed up for light harness. It would not have to be slaughter free, anything suitable for pleasure driving pony harness would do. Flaws and brands would be okay.

Edited December 20, 2010 by catskin

[hivemind]

Pity these aren't 12oz+, I can see a market for this stuff in the re-enactor and ren-fair types, many of whom are pretty crunchy-granola types.

[JHayek]

I usually just lurk about here and ocassionally post but I thought that I would throw in here. I am a former pro sadle maker but am now a full time ranch hand because I make more money as a cowboy than a craftsman. Not complaining, just saying how it is. I can absolutly say that makers do not get paid enough for their work. I can also say that many times cattle die for reasons that are completly beyond the control of the rancher and has NOTHING to do with mistreatment or neglect. In fact, the suggestion is offensive to those like me that are spending 12 hours a day on average watching over these animals(in inclement weather, around the clock) as they do everything they can to die on you. I can also say that this product would be very appealing to the overpaid, underworked people that many of us wind up building custom belts ect. for. The problem is that many of us find the concept of vegan as offensive as the vegans do meat. I say buy the leather and sell it for more and make em pay! they wont change their mind and you wont change yours but at least you will have some extra coin out of the bunny huggers. I would buy some myself but as I said I am a FORMER maker and this sale hits the same time of year that I am about ready to start calving again. I just wanted to encourage Mr. segal in his efforts to further the leather industry. that would be about all, I guess Im just venting now.

merry christmas!!

[azrider]

I don't usually post on the big topics like this one. But a few things came to mind.

1) I don't like hippies/ vegans/ granolas.

2) I live near a town with a lot of "environmentally conscious" people who will spend money on anything you sell to them with an eco-label.

3) This is a new product. At the price it is now being offered, I am willing to try this out, and market it as eco-friendly.

4) The idea behind this was to allow leatherworkers to make that pair of boots, and sell it for $500 instead of $100, with a minimal increase in material cost.

I appreciate the product being developed, and hate to see Steve Siegle catching any flack for it.

[terrymac]

Steve,

Just have a question concerning the physical properties of the hide. If somebody doesn't find that bovine pretty soon after they have met their demise, they can blow up like a beach ball. I'm just curious if this affects the physical properties of the hide. It would seem logical that a good portion of the hide would have the characteristics of the belly. In my opinion if somebody is willing to pay for this kind of product, then while not sell it. We don't have to believe in their cause, just provide what they want.

Thanks,

Terry