Slaughter Free Leather Not Selling As Expected

[Johanna]

In the End Of Year Specials is a note from Steven I find interesting:

Slaughter Free Vegetable Sides

Honestly, this is a product that I put a fair amount of effort into with the idea of offering something that my customers could;

1) make a larger profit margin than normal

AND

2) sell to customers who would otherwise not be a potential customer for any type of leather product. This was done to try to help the industry. Unfortunately, it has not "taken off", so we are offering it out for a very cheap price. The original text is listed below.: (I am a former member of the Cattlemen's Association and was very active in supporting all ranchers... If you want to hear the Steven Segal/grazing rights/Clinton story... drop me an email)

This leather was produced from cows which were not slaughtered for their meat. They died naturally in pasture. This is an item available only through our company and suggested for customers who otherwise may not be purchasing leather for their perceived "eco" reasons. Products made from this leather should be priced to sell substantially above other leathers. Choose from 7-8 or 8-9 oz. Sides will have defects not found on packer hides due to the dead animal being dragged

Regular Price $164.95/ea, On Sale $80/ea

[Spence]

Yes, that's interesting, but I wish he'd stop requiring a minimum purchase of 6 hides. That puts the tally above quite a few budgets - especially mine.

[NoahL]

The minimum order, in addition to the fact that it was priced so much higher than other leather, prevented me from ordering any even though I truly did want to. It's kind of difficult to increase your profit margin with slaughter-free leather when that margin is eaten up by having to order six hides that each cost $75 more than non-slaughter-free ones

[StevenSiegel]

Hi,

Just came across this post.

Our terms for the END of Year SPECIAL merchandise are different than our terms for other merchandise

End of Year Special Items: Total Purchase Minimum is $150.... see the link for complete information or contact me at s.siegel@siegelofca.com for any further clarifications

Other Items: Minimum purchase $75 to receive FREE US freight..

I don't know where the requirement of a 6 side minimum arose.

The Slaughter Free Sides, from the market research that was done, would have allowed finished goods to be priced at 3-10 TIMES the price for other leather goods, BUT ONLY WHEN MARKETED AND SOLD TO "NON-LEATHER" PEOPLE... I thought that this would be a great opportunity for someone and put a lot of work into making this "happen"..... Would sure appreciate some comments

[Ferg]

Hi,

Just came across this post.

Our terms for the END of Year SPECIAL merchandise are different than our terms for other merchandise

End of Year Special Items: Total Purchase Minimum is $150.... see the link for complete information or contact me at s.siegel@siegelofca.com for any further clarifications

Other Items: Minimum purchase $75 to receive FREE US freight..

I don't know where the requirement of a 6 side minimum arose.

The Slaughter Free Sides, from the market research that was done, would have allowed finished goods to be priced at 3-10 TIMES the price for other leather goods, BUT ONLY WHEN MARKETED AND SOLD TO "NON-LEATHER" PEOPLE... I thought that this would be a great opportunity for someone and put a lot of work into making this "happen"..... Would sure appreciate some comments

I'm sorry, I don't get this "Non Leather" people bit. Plus I don't see where the leather from a steer that has died a natural death and drug home from the prairie, is such a wonderful deal????

Guess I am missing something.

ferg

[jeeperaz]

The whole idea of 'slaughter free' leather was really bad to begin with... in my opinion, of course. By even promoting this, we are planting an idea that all 'other' leather comes from cruelly treated animals.

As an industry, we should be championing leather as a renewable, organic resource... and natural byproduct.

[bdt46]

I'm with Ferg on this one! I don't see how a natural death is any different than an instant death. If it's a humane thing, then many times a death in a slaughter house is much quicker and more humane! If you've raised cattle and seen one die a natural death from old age or disease(yes cattle have cancer, etc.) then you would agree with me. Non-leather people, it all comes from the same place, it's all the outer covering of a beef!!!

[TwinOaks]

I gotta agree, because I don't see the economical logic in trying to sell overpriced, probably damaged leather to a niche customer base. The leather is marketed as a side, but it's stated that it's going to have some damage because it was dragged ( Wait....what do you mean the poor cow's corpse was desecrated?!?!) I also don't understand why anyone would think you could get 3-10 times the price....especially in the current market. The folks who are so anti-leather certainly aren't going to dump more money on an animal product that died of "natural causes" than they would any of the regular leather. The notion that you could sell damaged hides, which means less usable leather, for MORE money on the premise that the cow died of natural causes.....sheesh. Sounds like you need to verify that your marketing people got good grades in MK301.

I don't mean to say that there's no use for grain damaged leather. I bought some from Kevin for the purpose of rough out items and test patterns. Of course, I bought it because it was a significantly reduced price because it was damaged, and I didn't need to spend $150 for an experiment.

Sounds like you might recoup a little of the investment with the EOY sale, but you might also consider going ahead and splitting the really ugly pieces that would likely just tick off the customers receiving them and selling it as splits.

As far as selling to a customer base that would only buy 'natural death' hides, are you offering some sort certification that the animal was dragged from a field? The reason I ask is that with a bit of PhotoShop, a word processor program, and a lack of ethics, anybody could easily print up a "It died in a field" piece of paper and tack it on anything they made with imported low grade leather.

[dirtclod]

Personally i don't understand all of your Rants. It's there if you want to buy it or not to buy it. It wasn't like you have to buy it.

Well dragging one to be loaded in the truck is the only way i see to get it in the truck even if you were able to back up to it. Yes their probley will be some damage to the hide. Nobody i have ever met has been strong enough to lift full grown cow or steer in the truck and i have worked with some mighty strong people in my time.

But the whole ideal of of it, if i understand it right was to be able to sell a product made from a cow that died from natural causes not one one that was killed for food. It was tanned for people that don't eat meat or want something that was made from a animal that was killed for food. Pretty simple i think. And no i didn't buy any. As far as i know all of my customers are like me meat eaters but one.

Edited December 18, 2010 by dirtclod

[rdb]

Fact: There is a market for recycled leather goods, and products from natural death animals. You could see this easily on Etsy, and elsewhere. And yes, it is in fact these products run more money than usual, just like solar, hyvrids, etc.How big a market...dunno.

Mr Siegel, being a good businessman, saw a possible niche market, took a chance, and offered a product to the makers. I want to thank him for trying to keep a stogdy industry moving forward.

Either the makers on this board never knew about this end of the business, or just were't interested. Either way, now it's on sale. Welcome to American Capitalism.

Mr Siegel's honesty may have hurt him. He said they were flawed. How badly, we ask??? We could call, I suppose, but If the pictures were better, we could SEE, FOR OURSELVES, the extent of damage. Actually, ALL the leather hide sellers should take note...BETTER PICTURES! In this day and age, this should be EASY! .I know for me, I am always leary of buying hides unseen. But, I have bought from Mr Siegel before, and the leather was exactly what he said it was.

That being said, I still don't want one of those hides, unless I see a very clear picture of them. $80 is a very good price for a side. If a high percentage of the hide is good it could be a bargain.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

There was a whole thread recently on VEGAN leather. A guy was looking to get naturally deceased leather because his girlfriend was a vegan. She was opposed to killing cows for food, and the leather made from them. But she was OK with leather made from a cow that had died naturally.

Yes, I could see a market for this type of leather, as well as a higher market price. Do a little research and you can come up with quite a bit on vegan friendly items. They tend to lean towards cotton, hemp, wood, and other sustainable materials. There are some that advocate synthetics for shoes, clothing, etc due to their aversion to animals being used for food, or other products. I'll tell ya, after seeing a video of dogs, and other animals being skinned alive on Chinese fur farms ,I can see their point. Fur is one thing, and leather is another, since leather is a byproduct of the meat industry. Cows are not raised for just their hides.

If a letter could be provided that could be photocopied showing the provenance of these hides, and I wanted to market to vegans, I would get some. As for the damage, a lot of vegans, as well as others interested in more organic items are not put off by an item not being perfect. Naturally grown, or formed items are seldom perfect like corporate factory items are. As a matter of fact it could be used as a marketing point; harvest markings for example.

So, what does this all mean? You can buy the hides that Siegel has for sale, or you don't. No need to call his business dealings into question. As with any retail business you have to take some gambles as to what the customers will want to buy from you. This one didn't work out for him as well as he had hoped. No biggie, you cut your losses, and move on.

Edited December 18, 2010 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[StevenSiegel]

Hi,

This is Steven Siegel.

These are interesting comments.

The intent, believe it or not, was to help our industry. As a commodity, leather is grossly underpriced and the people who work in the industry as makers are generally not equitably rewarded for their knowledge and labor as compared to other industries. Just ask most custom saddle makers how many hours they put into learning their trade, the hours necessary to produce a saddle and the dollars received for a finished product.

As far as proof of origin, this part was easy as, if the product was "successful" a chain of custody letter could have been supplied for EVERY side, from the original ranch, to the intermediary, to the tanner.

Any particular questions would be appreciated.

[bkingery]

Interested to be sure, my questions would be 1-how long was it in the field 2-what kind of deterioration is there on average because lets face it dead things rot 3- have you Steven been asked for a particular item of this nature 4- what kind of tannage 5- what is the temper and how come it is so thick and can YOU split it. I personally think that the drag marks might be kinda cool depending on the severity you could use them as a tearout design for tattoo type stuff, or just make stuff look old and incorporate the scratches. If I wasn't past my budget for the month already i would think of buying some but I can't afford to blow my nose at the moment so maybe later. Good effort SIR.

P.S. any of us that read the forum alot sure do remember the Vegan Girlfriend, Wonder whatever happened to that guy.

Peace and Love

Bryan

[TexasJack]

Just makes me laugh! The whole idea of leather being "OK" if the animal died in the pasture is ridiculous. Most people that (are crazy enough) to hate leather and fur will hate it no matter where it comes from.

Eat the meat, tan the leather, make things out of the leather - and ignore weenies that find fault with any of that.

[Denise]

People who hold strong convictions about something are often very motivated to put their money where their mouth is and will pay extra for products that fit into those convictions. You can see this with organic food, a large proportion of which is purchased by more affluent moms with small children. Working with leather of this kind would be a niche market for sure, but one that could be very profitable for those motivated to get into it. Those of us who live a more rural lifestyle don't have access to that market since our community/culture is anything but vegan, but for those working in the larger centers that are more likely to have friends/family/connections to the vegan world, and I can see a small niche market for this leather. But figuring out what to make and how to sell it would be a big job.

[UKRay]

I was fascinated by this thread and had to see where it went. From a marketing perspective, 'natural death' has a number of fairly major issues - some good and some bad, but all interesting.

Let's start with the concept of 'natural death' - Death is rarely a marketing advantage, but it wouldn't take marketing people long to sit down and think up a new way to describe this particular kind of demise. One that sounded as though the critter had lived a long and excessively happy (possibly even dissolute) life and was overjoyed to be giving its hide to make your boots, bag, belt (insert appropriate item here). Maybe as a way of making up for the fun it had.

Okay, so we now have a leather that is a by-product of farmyard fun and frolics rather than the meat industry. I can't see a problem with that.

The meat hater isn't going to change their attitude, but lets face it, plastic shoes are pretty grim. Sweaty feet are just the start... Plastic bags? I don't think so. Plastic belts? Well maybe, but they won't be selling out any time soon... leather is a natural product, perfect for a whole range of tasks and if it is marketed in the right way will sell - even to some of those who wouldn't normally buy.

If I lived in the US, I'd be on the phone to Mr Siegel right now ordering a couple of hides and making up some 'Special order only' bags that carry a premium because the leather came from HAPPY cows.

In the UK, people pay a premium for eggs that come from 'happy' chickens - in other words: free range, properly nourished birds that roam free and are not kept in battery cages. This is exactly the same idea and, frankly, I think it could be a winner. I just wish I had easy access to the stuff over here.

Ray

[StevenSiegel]

HI,

This is Steve Siegel again.

I have read the posts and would like to respond.

I am not very good at communicating by this medium. Frequently, I am misunderstood. My intentions are only for the best for all, without any judgements. What is written below is not meant to offend or "preach" to anyone. If my words should appear this way to anyone, I apologize now as they are only meant to be informative and a source of exchanging information.

1) RE Photos of defects

I would like very much to be able to shoot photos which accurately presented all defects in a piece of leather such as warbles, healed scars, and their concentration, loose grain, open grain, locations and concentrations, holes, locations, size, etc. Leather is a very unique product which can not be easily "graded" by a standardized system. This is a big problem for the multi billion dollar shoe industry. With all of the resources that they have available, they cannot standardize a "selection". Leather is a commodity which is tactile and visual; thus somewhat subjective. Over the years we have found that it is best to "grade" leather according to it's intended use. For example, the same leather which could be used for chaps, handbags or shoes would be graded differently for each of these applications. The chap maker would need to cut large, defect-free pattern pieces, with not much concern for tensile strength. The bag maker, cutting smaller patterns, could cut around an occasional defect without losing yield. The bootmaker who is cutting smaller patterns must be particularly concerned about the tensile strength of the leather so that it can be lasted, without the grain opening. If anyone can send me a couple of pictures that would represent what they would like to see on a web / email, please send them along to me at siegel.leather@gmail.com . I am always interested to learn something new. It would help me and others to learn how to communicate this more effectively to the public. (This is the reason that our company has always had a policy of free freight and free return freight to indicate that our intention is to pick leather as if, the customer was persoanlly picking the leather. No other leather company has this policy.)

2) Re: Defects of Slaughter Free Sides

The drag marks are not throughout the hide. The price of $80 / side is ridiculously inexpensive. The leather is tanned in the USA. It is a typical "strap" leather tannage at full substance, meaning that it will be better than leather that has been split from "skirting" leather to produce the same substance.

3) Re: Politics of This Stufft

People are people. Everyone has a different opinion. The concept was to offer a product which would allow our customers to make an additional profit that they could not make otherwise. Even the organization, PETA, which had been investigated for it's involvement as a domestic terrorist organization and is opposed to leather, would probably endorse this product. I believe this because the figurehead of PETA has put in her will that she would like her skin, after she dies to be converted to leather. I used to travel worldwide frequently. In the heart of our country, at the Dallas-Fort Worth Airport, during our previous President's tenure, I noticed PETA ads throughout the airport as public service announcements., provided free of charge by the people of Texas. They had been up for 4 years at the time that I noticed them and had a discussion with Texas law enforcement. . They were permanently removed within 1 week.. The point is, even in the most unlikely of places, there is a "movement" about that has this concept about leather

4) Re: Why Slaughter-Free?

If the hides are not converted to a useable product, they would, otherwise be disposed of to decay back to dust... This is re-cyled without the "carbon footprint" cost which many re-cylcled products require. In regard to decomposition:

a) It's a function of temperature and time. All of the leather which we sell would have the tensile strength necessary for the intended use.

[UKRay]

You may need to stay with this a little longer, Steve. People are notoriously slow in accepting new ideas even if, like this, the idea is a great one.

Having spoken to a number of leatherworkers in the UK since replying to this thread, I'm even more convinced it has huge potential over here. If the US doesn't want it, why not think about export?

Ray

[oldtimer]

Why not extend the market with slaughter free beef along with slaughter free leather !?

Edited December 19, 2010 by oldtimer

[Randy Cornelius]

To bad they don't come in heavy weight, I would use them for stirrup leathers for saddle repair.

[oldtimer]

I was fascinated by this thread and had to see where it went. From a marketing perspective, 'natural death' has a number of fairly major issues - some good and some bad, but all interesting.

Let's start with the concept of 'natural death' - Death is rarely a marketing advantage, but it wouldn't take marketing people long to sit down and think up a new way to describe this particular kind of demise. One that sounded as though the critter had lived a long and excessively happy (possibly even dissolute) life and was overjoyed to be giving its hide to make your boots, bag, belt (insert appropriate item here). Maybe as a way of making up for the fun it had.

Okay, so we now have a leather that is a by-product of farmyard fun and frolics rather than the meat industry. I can't see a problem with that.

The meat hater isn't going to change their attitude, but lets face it, plastic shoes are pretty grim. Sweaty feet are just the start... Plastic bags? I don't think so. Plastic belts? Well maybe, but they won't be selling out any time soon... leather is a natural product, perfect for a whole range of tasks and if it is marketed in the right way will sell - even to some of those who wouldn't normally buy.

If I lived in the US, I'd be on the phone to Mr Siegel right now ordering a couple of hides and making up some 'Special order only' bags that carry a premium because the leather came from HAPPY cows.

In the UK, people pay a premium for eggs that come from 'happy' chickens - in other words: free range, properly nourished birds that roam free and are not kept in battery cages. This is exactly the same idea and, frankly, I think it could be a winner. I just wish I had easy access to the stuff over here.

Ray

What makes you believe that a cow that died a "natural" death would be happier than a cow that is slaughtered ? It probably died because of illness, maybe a long procedure. Dying, either way, does not make one animal more happy than the other. The cow that was slaughtered maybe had a happier life than the one that died in the pasture ?

[Johanna]

I do remember some sort of disclaimer with these hides, that nothing should be built with them that a human life depended on, like climbing gear, for example.

Johanna

[UKRay]

What makes you believe that a cow that died a "natural" death would be happier than a cow that is slaughtered ? It probably died because of illness, maybe a long procedure. Dying, either way, does not make one animal more happy than the other. The cow that was slaughtered maybe had a happier life than the one that died in the pasture ?

I don't believe it for a minute... read my post again. This is a marketing exercise, not to be confused with reality. That is something completely different! LOL

[Lasse C]

This feels like another example of good intentions leading to a really bad idea. If "non-slaughter" leather is selling at all, it is still selling better than it should, if you ask me.

First, the entire concept is based on wrong assumptions. The idea that it should somehow be more ethical must be based on some Disneyesque misconception about "Billie Moo´s old age" where old Billie totters about in thick, green grass until she quietly falls asleep and never wakes up. Real life is very much different, I´m afraid. Should a cow live to old age (and they can get quite old!) unaffected by injury and disease (unlikely) and the owner can afford to let a cow who does not produce any calves or milk just walk around for years (also unlikely, given the economic conditions most farmers face) her teeth will eventually become worn down and she will slowly starve to death. And this is the best case scenario! The most likely is that she will die from some injury or disease. Intestinal parasites, kidney failure, infections or simply neglected care… you name it! Cows also have a tendency to eat things that should not be eaten; some of them are sharp and can puncture their stomach or intestines. Things like plastic stay in the stomach forever and disturb digestion and eating.

In other words: Letting a cow just die of what is so euphemistically called "natural reasons" is lightyears away from being ethical – it is downright cruel! In civilized countries there are laws against cruelty to animals. In Sweden, where I live, it is against the law to use any part of an animal that has died under such circumstances. Non-slaughter leather would be illegal here. (Forget about any export here, in other words... )

I find no ethical advantage whatsoever in non-slaughter leather if you look at the whole picture, not just the kill/no kill part. If anything, I find it hypocritical to think of it as more "noble" or "humane" to let the animal die in any of a number of highly unpleasant, often painful, and most often slow ways. You just don´t want any part of the "dirty work", that´s all. If we were talking about leather from an animal that has been given a good life, well cared for (in other words the "happy animals" that Ray is mentioning), and then killed in a quick and painless way while it was still healthy – then you would be talking really ethical leather! That would interest me.

Surveys may show many things – depending on how you phrase the questions you can, intentionally or not, direct the answers just about anywhere. Especially when ethical issues are concerned, people have a tendency to say what they would want to do, not what they will actually do. When the time comes to open the wallet, the two might differ significantly. Words, as we all know, are cheap – actions cost...

OK, the ethical advantage of non-slaughter leather is highly disputable at best. Why does it not sell? If you ask me it is not that remarkable. Apparently one angle is to attract vegans, but consider the real situation: Vernon the Vegan is going to buy new boots. In the shoe store he faces three pairs, all pretty much the same, except on two points – material and price. The boots of conventional leather cost $100, the non-slaughter leather pair cost $500 and the "guaranteed animal-free, vegan approved" synthetic pair cost $70. I would say that the odds for Vernon going home in the $500 pair are about one in any of those numbers that are normally only used by astronomers and bankers in Zimbabwe. Or, to put it short: Dream on.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this kind of reasoning really goes against my grain.

Lasse C

[UKRay]

I can't fault your reasoning or your arguments, Lasse C. I'd kinda like to know how these cows die myself - can you tell us please, Steve?

(I still love it as a marketing concept though!).

Ray