What Would You Do?

[Fred P]

Thanks for the input folks... I know these topics can fuel debate. I hope I wasnt unclear , but I did not put that strap on the saddle, and when this happened I contacted my insurance agent to inquire about policies. Without the agent's details, he said there was nothing available to suit my needs. Years ago I was a partner in a trailer manufacturing business, and just for product liability insurance on the trailers was $ 1800 per month, in 1994. That didnt include liability insurance for the building , equiment, machinery or anything else, just 1 million in product liability. So thats why I asked about the insurance for our trade, meaning product liability. I do carry insurance for the very reasons Mr. Seidel speaks of.

I also agree with Mr. Seidel about single ply billets not being acceptable. But I see them for sale in catalogs and western stores, and I see people buying them only looking at price, not safety. It was a lesson learned for my part as well. I have lost customers and sales, because I would not do what the customer wanted, specifically because they wanted me to half- a** something back together. I have run across more people who think that waving a majic wand over the saddle and 20 bucks later its fixed. I get many who want to share "their" leather work experience from a Tandy kit they had in school, and think a rivet here or a stitch there will fix their saddle.

Billy also brings up an excellent point. There is little personal accountability for things anymore. When something happens its not always someone else's fault. When I ride, its my responsibility to check my tack and gear. And I do it, cause its my rear on top of the horse ! It always seems someone is looking to blame others for their own actions, or lack of. My favorites are the lawyers on TV commercials about car wrecks, telling people, ( I'll get you a check and make the others pay ") . I spoke with a saddle shop owner in North Texas who told me that he sees all kinds of slick things people try to get by him. When I asked him about my deal, his first question was do they trailer load a saddled up horse. The scratch resembled that kind of action, and that can be the start of the torn piece. There were a lot of variables in my case that I dont know, so its hard for me decide exactly what happened.

I dont think lying was the case with me, but people can sometimes be downright deceitful, to get something out of someone else.

I really appreciate the input and take no offense from any statements. Constructive insight will always help !

Things can also be " what - if " to death sometimes too..... What if mosquitos had machine guns !!!!!

Fred

By the way: I still have that strap hanging on the wall in my shop... as a reminder !

[WyomingSlick]

I think you missed a good opportunity here. You could have offered to check out the rest of their equipment (for a reasonable fee, of course) and then you, and them, could rest easy knowing that all of their stuff was in a safe condition.

[GrampaJoel]

WyomingSlick I think you missed a good opportunity here. You could have offered to check out the rest of their equipment (for a reasonable fee, of course) and then you, and them, could rest easy knowing that all of their stuff was in a safe condition.

I don't know if you are replying to me or Fred P.

In my case I had never met this person before. They had been given my card and had received several recommendations by several folks in the local saddle club. I would have loved the chance to earn a few dollars doing repairs. But they decided that the repair work they needed on the saddle wasn't worth the price of the repair.

I believe that in fact the repairs would have upped the value of the saddle. (1)They wouldn't have to purchase a new saddle, and then still have this broken one laying around going to rot, and (2) they would have a saddle in good working order worth more than when it was broken, and have a few dollars in their pockets from not having to buy a new saddle.

Now, all the info I have on the trainer came out in our conversation while at my place. I would have loved to see what else they are using, and have the opportunity to fix it if it was not safe to use. I could always use the bucks.

On the other hand, I'm not a saddle or tack cop.

It really isn't any of my business to decide what a trainer, as far as tack equipment should be allowed to use or not. That is up to the trainer and trainee do ponder.

I do leather work. Period. I create from scratch, and I do repairs.

As far as Fred P goes , perhaps he has something to input also.

Joel

[Saddlebag]

The general public, including coaches and trainers, really have no idea of what saddle repair costs. Most of us don't have a clue with auto fixin' costs, so we sometimes get a second opinion. There comes a point where the cost to repair likely warrants getting something else. Even with the repairs the saddle is still an old saddle that's seen it's better days and would likely be needing more repair not too far down the road. I too will not fix a saddle if it can't be done properly. No shortcuts. I will even write on their invoice that the saddle is unfit if necessary. I don't want it coming back to bite me in a**.

[WyomingSlick]

I don't know if you are replying to me or Fred P.

XXXXXXXX

Joel

Of course I was responding to you as the thread starter who asked "what would you do?"

Now, you indicated some concern about the safety of the kids, and voiced some doubts about the competance of the people who were teaching them. If that is all true, then what better course to take then to lead them into the idea that perhaps they had better have the rest of their equipment checked out by a professional; namely you. A bit of conversation along these lines would give you a better sense of where they stand on the issue and if they are worth bothering with.

[GrampaJoel]

WyomingSlick

GrampaJoel

I don't know if you are replying to me or Fred P.

Joel

Of course I was responding to you as the thread starter who asked "what would you do?"

Now, you indicated some concern about the safety of the kids, and voiced some doubts about the competance of the people who were teaching them. If that is all true, then what better course to take then to lead them into the idea that perhaps they had better have the rest of their equipment checked out by a professional; namely you. A bit of conversation along these lines would give you a better sense of where they stand on the issue and if they are worth bothering with

.

Well I don't have an argument with what you have said in the quote above. In hindsight it might have been a good thing to suggest. Perhaps if I had, had some training as a used car salesman I might be quicker on my feet at making a suggestion that would lead to a money making sale.

So, I will restate,

I am a leather worker, not a cop for the equine profession.

I have my concerns no doubt. But they are just my concerns.

But as far as being a regulator of others. I am not that interested.

WyomingSlick

Thanks for replying to my thread and suggesting a method to bring more revenue into my leather working efforts. It gives me something to think about for the future.

Joel

[ASMA]

Have been following this thread and others the talked about being professional. Here is some food for thought. If the moderator needs to put it into another topic please do so.

I agree with Keith’s comments 100%. He and I have had discussions on this subject and we are on the same page. Keith is more diplomatic on the subject than I.

Quoting Keith.

"I encourage professionals to get the training and knowledge to be legitimate in your business, and to charge rates that reflect the costs of doing business responsibly."

"I caution hobbyists against doing work beyond your skill level, and not to charge for your work. When you accept funds for your work, you are no longer just a hobbyist, but considered a professional, and therefore liable for your actions."

"I do not want the government to interfere with the freedom of our industry,..."

Folks, government "interference" or regulation can come in many forms.

FYI Here are a couple that will effect us all this year (2011) and next year (2012).

Effective January 1, 2011, the IRS (Section 6050W of the IRS Code) requires reporting of all payment card and third party network transactions. Your reporting entity will be required to file an annual information return with the IRS and provide you with a Form 1099-K, which reports monthly and annual gross sales. So all of us that accept credit cards for payment will have those sales reported to the IRS. For the hobbyist or part time leather worker that uses Paypal or similar services as we understand it, will also have those sales reported to the IRS. You are now a business and subject to all that entails. You know how the IRS feels about unreported income!!

Beginning in 2012, under the Health Care Act passed in 2009, all business are required to report through a 1099 for all purchases from vendors over $600. As we understand it, this is total purchases for the year and not individual purchases. That’s two saddle trees, 3 to 4 sides of leather, or a sewing machine. This is current law. To change this provision of the Health Care Act requires Congress to repeal the provision. So far two attempts have been made and both failed.

How’s everyone’s blood pressure.

Given the current Federal budget deficits, Congress is looking for every possible method to collect more revenue, so this is just the beginning. Everyone paying their fair share. The train is moving and gaining speed. If you can remain off the grid, no problem, but as you see that remaining off the grid is becoming harder. What is the next deal - vendors (Tandy) reporting your purchases? Therefore, it could be time to become more proactive.

For your consideration.

Bob

　

　

　

[Billy H]

Hi folks.

First thing is---Joel sorry if this thread took a direction that you did not intend. I know that it has happend to you before, but you come across as a fellow looking to gain knowlege and seek opinions.

I know I have enjoyed those threads that you have started and have gained some food for thought.

I will also agree with you (Joel) that i am not a industry cop---don't want to be.

I have also realized that to support a family in this business would be very hard, especially given todays economy. You Makers (Saddle, Tree ,Tack) out there who are doing just that---I take my hat off to you.

Keith Siedel, Troy West, Steve Brewer, JW, Jon Watsabaugh,Bruce Johnson-----------------the list goes on, the Nikkles. All producing top end equipment for sure. I think folks like you have integrity.

Integrity is a word a code of conduct that is disappearing. I sure could be wrong, but integrity is not something you police, either you have it or you don't.

Your probably scatching your head, wondering if I have been pouring something extra in my coffee this morning------not today.

New saddle maker is what I am, working very hard to produce good equipment, we all have to start somewhere. You top hands are producing better stuff now than you did 15 years ago im sure-----------

well maybe Keith was born with a swivel knife in your hand. (Just kidding, your work blows me away my friend)

Billy

[BOB BRENNER]

Back to the original subject.

What would I do given an inexpensive saddle described as in below average condition missing a fender and stirrup leather presented for repair? In this situation I would agree with the customer and decline the repair.

Rational: (This is how I approach all repairs.)

First, once the repair is competed, can the item be used safely as it is intended? If not then we stop here. Repair will be declined.

Second, is the repair cost effective? Here, I use the 50% rule. If the cost of the repair is 50% or more of the replacement value or current market value of the item, the repair should be declined as not cost effective. The final decision is with the customer and they may decide to continue with the repair for their own reasons. In my shop the repair (new fender and new stirrup leathers) cost would be $278.00 and a national average would be around $243.00 . In this case could the customer sell the saddle for $500.00? From the description of the saddle I think it would be unlikely. Given the description of the saddle the cost of the repairs are very likely to be more than the value of the saddle. To some, these prices will be high. These prices are based on realistic and sound accounting practices.

From time to time a customer will ask me to use cheaper materials or "can’t you just throw a couple of stitches in it?" My policy is to only use quality materials and workmanship in all repairs no matter the quality of the item. It is my reputation. Also, I do not know how to throw a stitch.

Also, I check each item for overall safety and inform the customer of any problems they may not be aware of. If the customer says not to worry, I note the problem on the invoice. CYA.

Just because a repair can be done does not mean it should be done.

As for "But,,,, if this person sells their services as a professional, and uses a saddle in as poor as condition as this one to teach children to ride with, what else is this person doing that would endanger children while learning to ride?" After 35+ years in this business where does one start? I think Keith and others have hit all the highlights.

Bob

[catskin]

While I do not disagree with any of the opinions expressed here this is what I see your situation to have been.

You were asked to CLEAN and OIL this saddle, NOT INSPECT and CERTIFY it as safe. They accepted it as clean and oiled when it was picked up. You have no way of knowing if the strap was damaged after it left your place. Nor could they prove that it was damaged at the time you saw it. It was THEIR responsablity to inspect it before they used it.

I had a situation along these lines that I would like to share and would appreciate any input. A couple of years ago a lady brought a saddle to me she had recently purchased used. It was basically a generic factory made saddle. Her request was to clean and oil the saddle and "just check it out for me". The saddle was in pretty decent shape, and I performed the cleaning and oil as she requested, and told her it looked like she made a good buy. Two weeks later she called me furious because the off strap broke while someone was riding. The rider fell to the ground. He was not serously injured, just banged up a little bit. When she returned to my shop, I inspected the strap and noted it was a single ply piece of what I thought was harness leather. It had a long scratch across the side of the strap. A hole had torn out right at the scratch. The owner yelled at me saying that I told her the saddle was "good to ride". She even brought family members, so she had support I guess. I tried to explain to her there is no way to gaurantee the strength of a piece of leather. At that point, no amount of explaining was going to do any good, they just wanted to take their anger out on me. To shorten the story, I replaced the strap at no cost, just to get them to leave, then waited nervously for them to sue me, as that is what they were threatening to do. They never did, thankfully.

I am not a professional saddle maker, but want to learn ! I do repairs that I feel comfortable and competent to do. I wanted to share this story to seek input from some pros, but also to seek advice on how or if there is a financially feasable way to insure yourself for that liability. I know you could buy insurance for just about everything as long as you have the money ! Also do any of the full time makers provide some sort of disclaimer or something along those lines,, for repairs or new saddles. If I hear " ride at your own risk" would make me wonder about the quality of the work. I gotta admit I had many sleepless nights worrying about this and the person that got hurt.

If anyone has a disclaimer they wouldn't mind sharing, I would appreciate studying one.

Enough of my rambling ! and I apologize if I have hijacked the thread. Reading Joel's post made me think of this and I thought about sharing this, so hopefully some positive advice can help someone else.

Joel, I would have done the same as you did for the same reasons. I dont want my name ( and conscience) on shoddy unsafe work !

Thanks for listening !

Sincerely,

Fred