Saddle Stitching

[BuckhornBrand]

Hi everyone, I have a question for the saddle makers out there about what type of sewing machine they prefer for heavy stitiching. I'm a full time rancher and a part-time saddle maker. I bought an Artisan 3000 in 2008 at the Wichita Falls show and have never been satisfied with it. I finally sent it back to Artisan and they completely refurbished it for free. I haven't finished stitching one saddle with it and it's throwing fits, skipping stitches, varying stitch lengths, basically making my work look less than professional.

I'm in the market for a new machine and wanted to get the opinon of some saddle makers. I've talked with Steve from Leather Machine Co. about his class 4 machines in the past. I have a lot of trust in him as he's helped me quite a bit with this Artisan even though he doesn't work for them anymore. I know any of these machines can sew nice lines on scrap leather but I want to know what machines work best for sewing up next to hardware on riggings, walking up the varying thicknesses of plugged skirts, etc. The older needle and awl machines are probably better suited for this but I'm not sure if I have room in my basement shop for one, and I hear they can be tricky to get adjusted.

Thanks for the help, Chuck Norris

Edited January 16, 2012 by BuckhornBrand

[jwwright]

Hi Chuck...........I never have used one, but I have heard real good reports from several guys who have Ferdco machines....over the past 7 or 8 years, I don't remember hearing a bad report about them. I think that may be where I look for my next machine. I have an Artisan 3000 that is about 6 months older than yours. It has given me some trouble, and continues to do so off and on, but not near as much as you and others have had. I have built approx. 60 saddles with it, so it's done some work, but I continue to have to fuss with it every time I use it...sometimes much more than others. JW

[RWB]

That is unfortunate that you guys have had trouble with you Artisan 3000's. I have one and love it. It is incredibly consistent, and I have run literally miles of strap work through it as well as about 25 saddles. The only time it takes a bad stitch( ie skipped stitch, broken thread) is when I did something wrong. Maybe I have the only one that works right, I don't know. The only thing I hate about mine is the short arm. If I were to buy a similar machine I would go to Steve at Cobra. He seems to be very helpful and interested in quality control. If a guy can find a consistent single needle machine that seems like a far easier route than a hook and awl, to me any way. But it is tough to beat one of the older machines. I just hate to be a machine mechanic.

Ross

[JHayek]

If I could just go and buy a new machine it would be a campbell-bosworth. There is no comparison in the stitch quality of a hook and awl machine as opposed to a straight needle machine. Last time I checked the price was nearly the same on a new ferdinand and a new campbell. As far as space goes the campbell is no bigger . The campbell is easier than any other needle and awl to keep in line. Just my opinion and woth every penny paid for it.

Jon

[TroyWest]

I have used a Landis 3 for years. Few years ago i won a Toro 3000 at Wichita Falls. Sewed flawlessly. Never had any trouble with it at all. Was really pleasantly surprised at how well it sewed. Knew a couple of other well known makers who got one and both said theirs wanted to push what they were sewing to the side. If I said their names you would know them. Still, mine made a nice tight stitch and performed very well. Now I have a Cobra 4000 in addition to my 3. The 4000 has performed without a flaw. The stands are great. Wheels that lock. Adjustable height, servo motor. I can adjust it to where the stitch is nice and tight. Sews saddle skirts fine. For the money it's tough to beat. The deep throat is a nice plus too.

My brother has Landis 16s and a Ferdinand Bull. His Ferdinand has sewn many saddles and repairs and continues to sew very well. Never really had a problem with it. He loves his Landis 16s and now has 2 of them. Dale Harwood sews on a 16. They are great old needle and awl machines.

Like JHayek, if money were no object the Campbell/Randall is the machine I would buy. They are simply a great machine. Needle and awl machines take a little time to adjust to, but with enough use you can learn to tune them. A Landis 3 is a comparable machine with a slightly deeper throat, (about 2" deeper). The 3 is not quite as versatile as the Campbell . It sews best on heavier material and the Campbell sews heavy and lighter material well. The two machines look almost identical. The Campbell only has a 9" throat..

My 2 cents,

Troy

[BuckhornBrand]

Thanks guys.

JW I haven't talked with anyone about a Ferdco but I may look into them. I see their ads but other than that I don't hear much about them.

Ross, that's the reason I got this Artisan. I had talked to so many people like you that were getting along with them so well. I really thought I had done my homework when I bought it, but it's cost me a lot of down time. Unfortunately with a full time job and a family time is my limiting factor. I'm not as mechanically inclined as some people, so it could be partly my fault. But I can keep a small square baler humming along pretty good and really they aren't that different.

Jon, I've looked at the campbell-bosworth on their website and some video's of them on youtube. But I haven't gotten around to pricing them, I just assumed they were too big for my space. I would like to see one up close and personal but haven't found anyone around my area that has one. Thanks for your input, I was curious as to how good they really were.

Thanks again for your input guys, I appreciate it. Chuck

[BuckhornBrand]

Thanks Troy,

That's a lot of information, you're 2cents could save a guy thousands of dollars!

I knew the Landis 3's were good machines but I didn't know much about the 16's. Of course you don't just stumble across those machines everyday. Thanks for the information on the Campbell, I assumed they were mainly a heavy leather stitcher. I didn't know you could sew lighter things on them as well. I don't make a lot of chaps but every winter I get orders for a few pair from local guys. I need a machine that's versatile, I don't make enough chaps to justify having a light duty machine just for that.

Thanks again, Chuck

[kseidel]

I have a Landis 3, a Union Lock, 3 Randalls... 1standard and 2 high lifts, and a new Cobra class 4. I have had an adler 105-8 and a 205-370, and a Ferdinand Bull, a Landis 16 and several curved needle machines. These are only the bigger machines, as I have several lighter duty machines. (as I am writing that, I realize that I may have a problem and may need professional help) The hook and awl machines make the best stitches, and Randall/Campbells are very consistent once set up for your work load. They do not adjust easily to different applications. Straight needle machines are easier to adjust and change over for different jobs using different thread and needle sizes. They are also easier to figure out and master, as there are much fewer mechanical adjustments. All of these machines handle hard leather well (skirting, harness and latigo) in weights from 5/6 oz up to 3/4 inch or more, but all need to be adjusted some for the extremes on either end. I am in love with my Randalls, but am developing an infatuation for the new Cobra. I have only hat it for about 6 months, but over that time have done a lot of odd and complex work with it as well as normal flat work and It does a great job. It is becoming my new favorite for shaped and variable thickness work. The Bull was very comparable, and my brother still uses that machine exclusively. You do not have to be as mechanical to adjust the straight needle machines and keep them running as with hook and awl machines, and they are somewhat more versatile. Avoid Union Locks and Landis 16's unless you are ready for a "long term" commitment. They are much more complicated to operate.

Now I am going to go a shrink to discuss my obsession! Might have to sell a machine to pay the bill.... NAW!

[BuckhornBrand]

Thanks Keith,

There are worse obsessions to have! I know Steve advertises that some of you have his machines, I'm glad to hear you and Troy are getting along with them so well. Thanks for the heads up about the lockstitch and the 16's. I had heard the lockstitch machines were tricky.

I would love to own a Campbell, and I'm glad to hear some good reports about them. I'm just afraid I might be getting in over my head with a hook and awl machine. As much frustration as I've had with this Artisan I'm not sure my nerves could handle it. How often do the campbell's need adjusting? Do they stay consistent once you have them adjusted, or is it a process you have to go through every time you use the machine? With my Artisan I have to readjust almost every time I use it. I can have it sewing great one day, shut it off and cover it up, and the next night I have to start all over. It makes it very hard to have consistent looking stitching on a saddle. I know all machines need some adjustments, but I need to make better use of my time.

Thanks again Keith,

Chuck

[GrampaJoel]

Well let me add my thoughts now that I have found this thread.

I don't build a lot of saddles, but I have my hands full doing repairs.

I have a cobra4 and love it. I love it so much that I plan on buying another machine form Cobra. One to sew the very fine light weight leathers.

I make a wide assortment of leather items from halters to chaps and such as well as lots of saddle repair.

I'm not a big name saddle maker. I'm just a one man shop. But I rely on my sewing machine a lot.

And the cobra while not the same type of machine as a landis, or campbell it is a very reliable machine, as is Steve, the man selling them!

Joel

Edited January 17, 2012 by GrampaJoel

[BuckhornBrand]

Thanks Joel,

I agree with you about Steve, he's been very helpful to me. Glad to hear you're getting along with your class 4 on a wide variety of leathers. It's good to know that a one man/ one machine shop like yours can rely on it to pay the bills.

Thanks again,

Chuck

[stelmackr]

Thanks guys.

JW I haven't talked with anyone about a Ferdco but I may look into them. I see their ads but other than that I don't hear much about them.

I have two FERDCO machines. The FERDCO 1245 I have had for three-years and uses 207 top & 138 on the bobbin. I use it every day and it has never skipped a stitch making leather slip on book covers with it. The other is a FERDCO Pro-2000 that I use for heavy material belts, holsters and the like. I've had it for one-year and uses 346 top & 277 on the bobbin. It did skip a stitch once, but I was forcing the project. For me, I listen to Ron & Cheryl and do exactly what they say. I use bonded polyester thread with one size smaller on the bobbin than the top. I oil after 8 hours use and if the machine sits for any time I oil it. If the stitches start to look different I change the needle. They have links to people selling used machines and every time I've call Ron or Cheryl I feel like they have stopped doing everything and gave all their attention to me. www.ferdco.com

Bob Stelmack

[kseidel]

It should be noted that a hook and awl machine cannot be used for sewing textiles. It is strictly a leather machine. If you are needing to stitch both leather and textiles like webbing or canvas, the straight needle machines are the better choice.

[dirtclod]

I've had a Ferdco Pro 2000 for close to 20 years in that time i had one tension spring break and the little rubber tire on the winder wore out. Sewed all types of things from cattle shades, tarps, trampoline covers, logging chaps, toe straps, big thick tie downs, nylon chokers for crains and leather. If where you live is like around here when people find out you have a machine they will bring you all types of things to sew and a dollar is a dollar. I had a needle awl machine and the needles are quite a bit higher than the needles for the 2000.

[BuckhornBrand]

Thanks guys,

I appreciate the information about the Ferdco machines. I haven't heard much about them in the past, maybe thats because nobody was complaining about them.

Thanks Keith, but I'm only sewing leather.

Chuck

[BuckhornBrand]

Thanks for everyone's input on this. I've ordered a new class 4 machine from Steve. He's helped me through quite a few problems with my current machine and has earned my business.

I did call Campbell and had a great visit with Connie about his machines. They are very reasonably priced considering how long those machines will last, but it was a little more money than I wanted to spend right now.

Thanks for the advice, Chuck

[oltoot]

I see by the dates that I'm a bit of a johnny come lately so my 2 cents is only worth one cent but here it is anyway. I learned on a 16 and when I started looking for a machine I sorta became an unwilling mechanic and trader. After a few years and a lot of stress I bought a Union Lock and a Singer 211 class. It was several years before I got them all figured out, sorta, and have had a very happy relationship for a very long time. A rancher friend has one of the new single needle, long arm machines from Artisan and it serves him well. We come visiting one another with projects every so often and are both happy for the chance to do it. I can't add much or argue with anything already said here. If you want to dabble in machine mechanics and antique restoration, you can wear out your piddler. Don't pass up a Singer 97-10 if find one. I think that they were the great father of the single needle, cylinder arm family. Designed by Singer and used by the military in parachute repair during WWII.