brutally honest criticism sub forum?

[charley]

Charley,

I can agree with you also. On the other list I gave a mild another-way-to-do-it on an item I had done well over 200, and wasn't selling kits or class space. It wasn't even a critique of their show-off piece. Not sure how many the person had done, but their method was limited and cumbersome. I got a scathing offlist email reply from someone that all I do with my all posts was to stifle alternate thinking, come down hard on new crafters, and discourage others from posting. <snip>,

On this particular forum I generally go PM or email, and receive several emails and PMs on my work from guys I respect the input too. I think that some people don't want to come across as high and mighty, and unless brutal feedback for a critique is requested, it is hard to know how someone will take it. There are some great people on this forum, and there is a lot to be learned here.

Hi, Bruce--

I've seen your feedback here and in other forums -- and you have a review style that I happen to like very much! Detailed, substantive, with real suggestions on things to watch for or techniques to try.

I have also noticed that some forums find feedback like that "bad form" in public settings, and I've guessed that the drop-off in posts like yours is because that type of commentary is discouraged. <sigh>, I think that's a mistake (for the forum and our whole community).

I think other reviewers would benefit from reading what you write. I know *I* benefit from it directly (e.g., I've saved some of your posts with comments on others' works, so I can keep reviewing examples of good-and-bad).

I understand the role for PM and off-list, but I also like seeing at least some of this in the public arena because I believe it trains all of us in providing good feedback (as well as raising the bar for skills). I know not everyone is ready for that type of criticism, which is partly why I think a "Be Picky" forum is a good idea.

Johanna makes a good point, this is the purpose for the "critique my work" forum. So maybe I'm emoting for no reason (other than I'm a jerk, which is true). Perhaps I'm whining about needing a forum for "Be Picky" feedback, versus "Be Gentle" feedback (which is my general feel for the "critique my work" forums, or any other list I'm on.)

In short, "Be Gentle" doesn't do anything for me. I'm past that, and largely don't learn anything from those posts. In regards to "Be Picky", I can't count the number of times I've seen the picture in the first post, formed my own opinion, and then after reading review comments and suggestions from a set of follow-up posts, I've had to go back and re-look at the picture. Because of this process, I now notice things I never did before. (I want more of this!)

Sadly, those posts are fairly infrequent, and seem to be downright discouraged (as you mention).

Oh, well. To each his own, I guess. I know for many leather work is recreation, and for many, production work that sells is sufficient; and I don't want to make it a chore. Maybe I'm weird because this is a big topic for me. ;-))

I suppose in the short run a post to "critique my work" with a request for detailed/masters-level feedback is probably sufficient. Perhaps we don't have sufficient posting volume or interest to create a "Be Picky" forum. My goal, however, was more similar to what Chris originally suggested -- I'd like a cultural shift or forum where the standard is assumed to be very high, to raise all of our skills and expectations.

Not everyone wants to attend Juilliard, but I sure like the idea that it exists.

--charley

[charley]

<deleting duplicate post>

Edited July 13, 2008 by charley

[Hilly]

I also feel that "You suck" is totally wrong. When I ask for a crititque, I'm hoping someone will point out things that they like, as well as things I can improve on. You can't correct things unless you know what it is you're doing wrong, and sometimes you need to see it through other people's eyes.

I thank you Clay B., for pointing out things the way that you did, and I will never take offense at constructive criticism. You don't need to be afraid of being brutally honest with me.

I must add that I have many, MANY times seen work posted that I thought was awesome, and never said a word, but also, work that was like nails on a chalk board to my eyes, and never said a word. What I see as bad work, would probably be seen as awesome by someone else, so I tend to just keep my mouth shut, or try to say something positive, as do most people here. I realise that most beginners make the same mistakes, and that most show improvement with each piece they do. I am also, pretty much a novice, so I don't feel that my opinions are very valid. Maybe after I've trashed a few of 55 gallon drums of leather, I will have more to say. Until then, everyone can expect to hear something positive from me.

Encouragement before criticism usually works well.

Hilly

[jbird]

I agree with hilly on every thing and I to like clays style of help he is honest and fair and I would also say Bruce has been one of those great guys he is honest and fair you can all be brutally honest with me, and I know that is hard to do since my work sucks.

Josh.

Edited July 13, 2008 by jbird

[Jordan]

My work is no where near the quality I see on this board. Having established that, constructive comments are always welcome. I am of the opinion that it is very obvious to most readers when a statement by a writer is meant to be helpful or hurtful. I appreciate the fact that members of this board strive to be helpful and take the time to think about what they write in the you suck arena.

[John D Dennehy]

"you think you have a piece to enter in an IFoLG show, then you're probably (or should be) aware of rules, regulations, and judging criteria. That level of craft may be deserving of harsher criticism, but if it's good enough to compete, how much criticism is needed?"

Very interesting subject and read this morning folks. This particular statement is of particular interest to me as I would like to start sending in a few entries to the IFOLG shows. I have gleaned some pointers in the last couple of years that I never knew. I have asked questions and looked online but have not found a "rulebook" per se with written criteria for the judges to follow.

For example I have heard that on belts they look for an exact spacing between the leather and hardware. I have also heard that all items are to be hand stitched.

I love honest criticsm of my work at all times and am very receptive to it. This makes me work harder to kick it up a notch. What I would like to know is where is this list of rules, regulations and especially the judging criteria and how does the average person get a copy? I want to find out specific things to make sure I have done the project correctly (according to the rulebook and guidelines).

If this needs to go to a different thread then I would love to see it elaborated on. Maybe some of you that have lots of judging type show experiance can join in. I know that I would sure appreciate some feedback. Maybe this will shave a few of the school of hard knocks years off for many of us that have not entered many shows.

Thanks,

Edited July 13, 2008 by thewildirishrose

[ArtS]

Since I'm still learning I always love to have my problems pointed out to me. My goal it to improve and thats one reason I'm here. I also get great ideas and learn a lot by seeing other's work here. When I do see what appear to be errors and places to improve to be honest I usually don't say anything. I feel that since I'm still learning I'll let the really good folks respond. That may not be the best way but I'm timid in that respect.

But to all those that have helped me THANK YOU SO MUCH! Please keep criticizing and giving me advice. This site has really opened up my eyes to so many different types of leather work.

ArtS

[Johanna]

John-

http://www.leatherworker.net/tipstricks.htm

scroll halfway down and look at the IFoLG guidelines/rules pages.

~J

[charley]

I also feel that "You suck" is totally wrong. <snip>,

Encouragement before criticism usually works well.

Just to be clear, I'm not advocating pointless criticism. I'm advocating directed feedback. The "You suck" idea is a bit over-simplified, and not an accurate characterization of the topic, IMHO. However, since several people chimed in with that thought, I wanted to address it directly.

In general, when the reviewer speaks, it should be to achieve a specific outcome (draw to the forefront a positive or negative, problem-solve an approach, provide guidance on alternatives, etc.) Nobody is talking about "You suck" as a valid message.

You open a book, and the author speaks to you. That's not true for another author and another book. People are different, and we respond to different input (i.e., we disagree on favorite authors). Some people burst into tears at a feigned compliment, and some people need a two-by-four broken over their head to look up from their work or modify their behavior.

Providing critique is a skill. Its method of application varies depending on forum, expectations, and target audience. We will always have qualified masters who may not be good reviewers (or not good reviewers for a given student). Further, we will always have reviewers that are wrong, are jerks, don't know what they are talking about, or are otherwise not perceived as helpful. That's another good reason to critique in public -- so we can all learn how to do it better.

I'm not talking about harsh criticism for newbies or children. I'm talking about adult feedback to adults aspiring to be masters. Yes, I'm asserting more of this is needed in our community.

I agree with Bruce and Clay that it's a good idea to list three things you like and three things to consider improving. I also acknowledge that forums can establish their own arbitrary rules, or convention, or culture, for what makes an acceptable review or an acceptable public comment.

While any of us can have opinions for what makes a good review, I don't think there is any real "one-size-fits-all". Thus, I similarly think it's unrealistic to make absolute statements like "never say it sucks".

In a one-on-one between master and student, I think it's absolutely fine if the master is exceedingly demanding. That's what I'd want. I think that model is actually far improved for fifty-to-one when there are fifty masters commenting on the student's work: Fifty sets of eyes are better than one set, and the student can accept or reject based on the commentaries that make sense or are most helpful. In the "olden days", the apprentice was at the mercy of one master, without recourse. We're not there anymore. In this case, the public forum can actually *defend* the student from ill-advised or inappropriate comments from one reviewer.

No, that may not be for everyone. But that's what *I* prefer.

Summary: I'm not proposing a forum for public disemboweling. However, we should recognize and agree that our opinions of what constitutes "harsh" differ, and I *am* proposing a room where the temperature rises a few (dozen) degrees Celcius.

...

I'll back off now because it's not my intent to dominate the conversation. ;-))

--charley

[rdb]

Very Good Post Charley! Keep up the the Good Work!!!...ROFL.