Getting A Little Peeved.

[pete]

Dear Forum-

I have limited time to login and read this great forum. If i could I'de be here all day the way people "google" all day. BUT......

I am amazed and getting a little peeved at the copious amounts of requests here made mostly beginners and "noobs" It seems that I login sometimes and find 3-4 pages and a huge majority of the requests are for things that even a beginner should be able to figure out-to-------I.E. oil before or after dyeing, will too much water make my cuts close, how do I cut a straight line and what should I use to cut with, can I punch holes in dry leather, and on and on.......

I REALLY don't mean to come off as arrogant or above helping those newer to this craft- but come on!! GET SOME SCRAPS AND TRY WHAT YOU ARE AFRAID TO ATTEMPT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS!! That's exactly what I tell those who approach me or call me for help. Try IT!!! You will learn more doing it than you EVER will asking me or anyone else.

I see way too many pictures posted here of projects by folks who are new and this is their first posting, and they BEGIN by pointing out their own mistakes- obvious mistakes that don't require comment

If a stitch line is crooked or an edge was wavy, a lacing loop was missed TRY IT AGAIN!!! FIX IT!!! scraps are cheap- you don't need to be told that your cut missed the scratch line.

This is a craft- it takes a long time to get REALLY good, but plenty of beautiful work can be completed if you take your time, practice before you cut and wack, and think out the job before you do it.

Again- I'm not ranting nor am I angry- I just so appreciate this forum and its members and their talent and hate wading through posts that could so easily be answered if only the search button was used more often. There is a TON on information that has been compiled and it goes WAY back. I don't think that I could invent a question that can't be answered from the search archives.

pete

[mlapaglia]

Pick any forum that has been around and has a lot of new people all the time. the search button use has been a common thread on all thoses forums. Most of the search functions do not do much if you do not know how to properly phrase the question. But, I can see how that would be frustrating to you. But doesn't that negate one of the main purposes of this board? There are people that like to ask verses look up an answer. Some need the reassurance of a response. Others use it as a way to introduce themselves. Some just like to chat. About all I can suggest is don't open a thread started by someone whose name you do not recognize.

Michael

Edited May 29, 2012 by mlapaglia

[dirtclod]

A quick look through the how do i this threads will explain a lot of the questions. It's kinda like the where do i get this or that threads. A quick search on Google will turn a lot of what their looking for most of the time.

[Sylvia]

Uhmmmm..... having a bad day, Pete?

The main thing I would like to point out is that what is "cheap" to YOU may not be so damn cheap to someone else. Also "noobs" often start with a Kit... which they paid way too much for and feel anxious about screwing up.

Please don't fault their efforts to ask. Sometimes people have no idea how to search these things out on a forum. Just because they HAVE a computer doesn't mean they are adept at using it.

[DoubleC]

I'm with Sylvia on this. I have talked my neighbor through 'copy and paste' at least 10 times; her computer is way nicer than mine but that doesn't mean she knows how to use it. And she still likes for me to be on the phone or in her apt. when she does it. Is it frustrating? Yes, but I don't tell her to go and use Microsoft's search function to remind herself. That place is huge, and Pete really to someone starting out so is this. If you find you are losing your patience just don't answer those questions for a while. Because they are important to the person asking them. Cheryl

[electrathon]

My biggest pet peeve on a forum, and this is huge big, is when someone asks a question (and I would say 100% of the time it is because they are looking for an answer) and they are told by someone to,"use the search". I can not think of a bigger, more arrogant, belittling, a hole statement to post than that! I have seen a group of old timers on here recently posting this. I see red ever single time someone posts it.

If you do not want to answer someones questions, use the mouse and select another thread. You take your time to belittle and try to humiliate the new people, this might as well be a punk kid forum. Some of the old time people on here need to be embarrassed by their attitude. This is a place of learning. Most new people are here to learn.

My second biggest pet peeve, and this is just a little behind the first: Telling people who are trying to learn to do it themselves and tell us how it worked. People ask questions to learn the answer, not to be belittled and humiliated.

Now I got angry, need to stop.

Aaron

[DoubleC]

No sense in getting angry Aaron, I suppose when you've answered the same question a 1000 times it gets old. But I agree, takes just as long to answer a question as to try and belittle someone. Cheryl

[Rodw]

Oddly enough, in reading Pete's post, now I have more leather questions because he brought up things that never would have occurred to me since I've never worked with leather before. Like can you punch dry leather? Um, why would you wet leather to punch it? Should I do that? That would never occur to me. Does that mean you have to wet it before you stamp it or cut it with a swivel knife, too? EEEEEEPPPP!!! Unfortunately, my nearest Tandy Leather Factory is about 50 miles away so popping over for a class is not doable since I don't drive. I'd better read more before I eff up this piece of leather. *sigh* And I agree about the expensive vs. cheap thing. Everyone's circumstance is different.

[DoubleC]

Yes, if your going to read Rod, go to 'how do I do that' and read the pinned topics. There's one on 'casing' or how wet your leather should be and a ton of other things. And keep asking questions. Cheryl

[radar67]

We were all beginners at one point. If we are not willing to help the beginners, the art will die. I was very appreciative of the individual who took time out of his busy days to answer my noob questions and get me on the right path. He had three words to follow, "Honor, Loyalty, and Respect". I enjoy helping people get started in this craft, as I am still learning every day.

[HARVEY]

We were all beginners at one point. If we are not willing to help the beginners, the art will die. I was very appreciative of the individual who took time out of his busy days to answer my noob questions and get me on the right path. He had three words to follow, "Honor, Loyalty, and Respect". I enjoy helping people get started in this craft, as I am still learning every day.

Well, since we're all ranting and raving, I'll jump in. I just love (said MOST sarcastically) when folks say "The art is going to die." No! It's not! It's gonna be around for a long time to come. This is a world-wide art and craft and people are doing this in countries we can't even pronounce. It was brought over here to the North American continent while it was still being done in Asia Minor for the past 3,000 years. Say what you will, this art is NOT going to die. Whether mankind advances or we find ourselves in a post-apocalyptic world, as long as there are mammals and sea creatures, leatherwork will be around!

Harvey

[dirtclod]

I think the point Pete was trying make is just to try and see what happens. A person doesn't need to have their hand held every step of the way. People are going to screw up even with somebody standing right by their side and being told every move to make. Face it folks your going to screw things up it's part of life. 30 something years ago i gave a guy a bid on painting a house. He took it and the first brush stroke i new i had messed up. I would up painting that house for around 2.00 a hour. That was lesson that has stuck with me ever sense. Same thing doing leather work you learn from mistakes and they will stick with you.

I try to help people on here and where i live and i've seen people in both places that were scared to cut a side / back/ double shoulder cause they were scared they would mess up. It happens but you learn from it. Espically if it's coming out their pocket. Yes i know things cost a lot and you don't want to waste your money cause it's tight. Same here, ever day of my life money is tight and yes i mess up sometimes but i try to learn from it.

[Mike516]

Being a noob myself, I'm glad I got the answers to my stupid questions before I saw this post or I may never have asked any of them.

As someone who's gotten frustrated with the search functions on more than just this site because I have trouble phrasing my searches (maybe I'm just slow), if I have time I'll answer the same questions 100 times because I got the answers when I started and needed them. If I don't have time, I'll try and come back later when I do and answer them.

I'm sorry you feel this way Pete, but I'm glad you're in the minority here.

[katsass]

From the grumpy old guy; I don't mind the questions, but I do dislike the person asking a question arguing with me after I answer it. If I feel that the person is worth my time to give further assistance, I'll generally do it in private messages. I will say that my method of instruction can be a bit caustic however, but it usually accomplishes some pretty good results. This is probably the result of being taught by a most exacting old man, much grumpier than I, and one that demanded good results. Mike

[Bluesman]

I understand Pete's position and am guilty of over asking as charged. However, I like to get things really straight in my head before I proceed. This leads to less mistakes and better first run projects. There is the other side of the coin though, that some things should be common sense and you really have to try it first to see the results. After the fact questions are really the best ones. For these allow you to understand what you did and how you did it. so when the advice comes you have a better understanding on how to correct it. The best analogy I have is software. All to often people get new software, load it and begin to ask questions. The better approach is to fumble around, use it, get frustrated and then after a few weeks, ask questions. Nothing more aggravating than being asked how do i do this? And when you explain it the next questions is, I don't know were that menu is. Helping is a wonderful thing, but so is innitiative.

[electrathon]

Being a noob myself, I'm glad I got the answers to my stupid questions before I saw this post or I may never have asked any of them.

As someone who's gotten frustrated with the search functions on more than just this site because I have trouble phrasing my searches (maybe I'm just slow), if I have time I'll answer the same questions 100 times because I got the answers when I started and needed them. If I don't have time, I'll try and come back later when I do and answer them.

I'm sorry you feel this way Pete, but I'm glad you're in the minority here.

Thank you for posting this. I felt sort of bad last night a few hours after I posted, but you have reinforced my feelings. The more visible part of this that I see is that the original post was from an ambassador, it gives the impression that others feel like he does too, very sad.

I have a story. When I first got into leather a few years ago I was in Tandy trying to learn and understand. I was feeling frustrated (still do on this issue) that Tandy primarily sells old, dated patterns from 50 years ago. In the discussion with the manager I brought this up and was told that if I wanted more modern information I should write a book and sell it myself. This angered me and that was before I knew that Tandy has chosen not to sell modern information but to continue selling dated patterns by choice.

The other situation that still grates on me was I was trying to learn how to get the affect of antiquing. At that time I did not know what or why or how, just that I had seen finished items I liked the look of. When I asked how to do it I was told to buy stuff off the shelf and see what I could do to duplicate it. That was over 5 years ago and I still tense up when I think of the conversation. I left the store furious that day. To me I was told to stick it. Months later I was taught buy Chan Geer how to do it, I am thankful to him to this day.

Aaron

[Sylvia]

I can't imagine what this forum would be like if NO ONE asked questions. It most certainly, would be a stagnant pool with a few self-important turds floating around.

To the New folks...If you can't find it... please feel free to private message me. I will answer as best I can.... If don't know the answer, I will research for the answer for you or find the link to another forum post. I do this because... when I help to teach others, I learn as well. I don't have an arrogant bone in my body.... I will help you if I can and I'll do it nicely. Promise! Personally, I applaud those that ask the questions I never thought of..... because through them, I learn.

Now, may I suggest that we let this topic die?

[Cyberthrasher]

Personally, I can see both sides of this. I always grew up with being taught to help those who help themselves. So, for someone to come on and say "I want to make some leather stuff, what do I need to buy", that just sounds like they haven't even put in any thought to it and therefore really haven't helped themselves in my opinion. But, if someone has tried to get the right casing, or they've been working on their own for a while and struggling before finding us here, it will usually show in their first questions and I'm willing to point them in the right direction if I'm short on time ( and usually somebody else has already said it better in the first place). But, it's also important to realize that we're talking about a craft that many people don't get to experience at all until they start - leaving out a lot of the "common sense" that you would normally get in a new endeavor. Yeah, I also agree that doing is the best learning, so I'm pretty quick to recommend a good bag of scrap leather from one of the retailers - especially since it's pretty cheap and much better then the kit stuff. But, if someone doesn't know what to try then they can't really try it on their own and report back.

Bottom line, I think everybody is right and both sides are responsible for the whole thing. The experienced people need to lighten up a little bit and remember what it was like when we all started out. Instead of getting openly irritated (I don't care what you do on the other side of the keyboard), think about how you can guide the person into their own discovery. Give them some options to try or point them to various articles. If you want to tell them to search, give them a little info that they need with it followed by "there's a lot more info if you type xxxxx into the search bar".

For the new people asking, figure out what you want to do and why you're having problems first. Go through the work and at least browse through the recent previous topics. Too many times I'll see someone ask a question on something that is covered within the top two posts of the same page, if it's not already covered in a pinned tutorial on that page. We're all here to help and taking these steps will allow you to ask an informed question. Remember - the more detailed your question is, the more detailed the answer provided can be.

[UKRay]

The joy of this forum is that there are good people who will help out if you have a problem. I regularly have cause to put a question up for consideration and I generally get a sensible answer - unless my cousin Luke joins in!

IMHO, this is a regular problem for any gathering of people where the skill/knowledge level stretches from beginner to expert. There is no simple answer but I'm with Aaron on the 'look at the search engine' issue 'cos although I'm sure the answer to most of my queries is right in there somewhere (and I have probably tried to find it too but somehow that old technology gene probably ain't doin' its thing for me) I really don't need folks to chew my ears and give me a load of sass for asking what seems to me a sensible question. All I want is a little help and a kind answer.

I suspect those who are unhappy with the constant 'white noise' and repeated questions, are pretty smart folk who simply want to drop in, grab what they need and go. I can understand that they might feel that the 'newbie traffic' is jamming up their lane. The fact is most newcomers to LW are overwhelmed with the sheer volume of knowledge contained here. I certainly was. It takes a while for people to settle in and put their feet up so please cut the newcomers some slack guys, everyone has to start somewhere. Questions are a great way to get to know you good people and most newbies are quick to understand how kind and thoughtful you can be. I just wish everyone could have a truly positive experience here.

Just an idea, but if you are an expert LW search engine user then how about putting together a brief guide for newbies on the best way to use the thing? Heck, I'd use it myself!

Ray

[pete]

OK everybody. I quit ..........Didn't mean to cause a firestorm, hurt peoples feelings, or imply that I am so good that I don't need to ask questions anymore.

But I'm not buying the cost of scrap or computer confusion argument either. If you simply OWN a computer then a $3.00 bag of scraps doesn't constitute a "burden on you wallet" Especially if you are asking while using a $10 utility knife, reading a $12 Stohlman entry level book, and worried about ruining $40 of leather.

Come on folk, I'm not being arrogant in the least. I'm simply saying that many of these questions are common sense and have nothing to do with leather being the medium.

ASK ASK ASK! Check out my posts. I have asked many question in the past and have spent a lot of time answering posts. I have no problem with this- it's one of the best parts of the great forum.

end of transmission

respectfully to ALL

pete

[Rhide]

I find it ironic that this thread was started by ...an Ambassador!

[Sylvia]

Pete I think what you are neglecting to understand is there are folks here who have VERY little money due to the economy and perhaps being on a fixed income. That "$10 box cutter" is from their previous life when money flowed like greased lightening. Now the situation is different. Not all of us have unlimited funds... and the scrap I've seen online costs WAY more than $3 especially when you add shipping.

Now, in my case when I started here, I had some tools and kits from about 6 years ago. But I was utterly and completely broke... I had a whopping $10 a month coming in from an affiliate program I'm involved in. IN fact... Our retirement accounts are gone, zip, nada, zilch...ZERO left in them... and now we are digging ourselves out of a hole since the husband finally got a job after nearly 4 years of being unemployed. (I've not had a job in 6 years) So Hell Yeah, $3 is a lot for a bag of scraps with no guarantee that any of them will be large enough to do anything with.

To make it clear to you... I saved, scrimped and struggled to even get through last year. I learned to can, preserve and build a solar dehydrator out of what I already had. So for you to come a long and say $3 is nothing... pfft... "Float, baby.... Float"

I find it ironic that this thread was started by ...an Ambassador!

Ambassador... just means he's answered or posted a lot on this forum.

[Rhide]

Ambassador... just means he's answered or posted a lot on this forum.

I was gonna ask about that,but I didn't want to pizz anyone off!

[Sylvia]

I was gonna ask about that,but I didn't want to pizz anyone off!

I have been corrected in PM by pete. "Ambassador means I've contributed monetarily to the forum"

[bruce johnson]

There are some topics pretty easily searched. "What kind of sewing machine should I get?" for example. A lot of the rest of it falls into the "I'm so green at this, I don't know what I don't know to even search it". In the good ol' days of leather crafting there was a Tandy store in most major cities. A majority of the leathercrafters that are seniors now probably started off that way. Someone at least could teach them the basics. A lot of the repetitious questions now are from the folks who haven't got that available to them, but they have a keyboard. How many of these threads start off with "I got a kit from TLF and have a few questions"? These folks may not have the classes available to them. This group and others are basically the on-line tech support for the craft supply sellers. Telling them to buy some scraps and have at it blindly would be like giving my wife a welder and pile of scrap iron and telling her to build a windmill. They don't know the terms to search for, or when they do search they get 20 posts from threads that may have some relevance, but put together looks like a committee cow. I have been here from the start and a little background on the "search". Early on the plan was to merge and collate questions into previous threads to make things more searchable. There was talk of a "leather wiki". When there were 300 or 500 members, it was cumbersome to keep up. Crossed over a couple thousand members and it became impossible. That is why there are duplicate threads and search is hard to figure sometimes.

One thing I have found is that there are precious few only-one-way-to-do-it techniques in leather work. Everybody uses different tools, cases different, tool stamping order, choice of oil, finish techniques, etc. Probably the best thing I get out of a lot of the basic questions is the responses. I learn a lot from those. With new people coming on, some of these folks have a ton of experience. They haven't gone back through the archives and added their tips and tricks to every appropriate post, but will reply to the same question asked today. Keep them coming.