Motors?

[ChimeraKennels]

I understand the clutch motors "run full speed" and that servo motors are "less sensitive and offer good low speed control" although the later some times has less power than an equal strength clutch motor when being used at low speed.

So, here is my question. On my "new to me" Pfaff, it came with a 1/3rd hp clutch motor...but I can run it slow without any problem. That motor is HEAVY despite it low hp rating...and even though it is "on" all the time when I hit the switch, it really is fairly quiet in my opinion. The manufacturer is "Every Ready" and the model is a "Master Clutch." I can run this clutch motor as slow as I want. From what I read clutch motors are typically hard to control, so I am curious, was this some unique model or did I just get lucky? Why are new clutch motors not like this?

I imagine it is the original motor. I am replacing the wiring for safety reasons to update it to a three prong with a ground, but didn't choose to purchase a new motor since this one seems able to meet my needs. If I have problems going through thick stuff than I may upgrade to a stronger motor...but my question is...would a 1/2 hp servo be any stronger than a 1/3 hp clutch?

I noticed that some of the clutch motors out there are made for "slow stitching" with a top RPM around 1750. Would such a motor with a small pulley not offer more penetrating power than a servo motor?

[ChimeraKennels]

Two more things, I am sure I will never run this machine over its max RPMs as I prefer good control, but I would like to know what is...

1. What is the max stitch RPM for this machine (Pfaff 145-H4-6/1C)

2. What is the max hp rating this machine can handle?

This information would be beneficial should I end up needing a new motor some day.

[Northmount]

would a 1/2 hp servo be any stronger than a 1/3 hp clutch?

The heavy spinning rotor in the clutch motor provides the inertia to get started (punch) through heavier leather without stalling. If it does what you want it to do now, and you can "feather" the clutch okay to run at low speeds as needed, I don't see a need to change. Some more practice and testing should prove for sure one way or the other.

I took a clutch motor off a flatbed Singer 20-33 because it tended to grab once in a while. Even with a smaller 2" pulley it was too fast for me. Since it is only used for light weight material like wallet liners, it doesn't need a lot of starting torque and the servo does a good job for me. Might have been fine for others with better muscle coordination!

CTG

[KAYAK45]

YOU GOT LUCKY! If the motor you have, behaves the way you want it to, why question why? Just use it,... for say..the next twenty years. Then get the new best thing,.... then.

Just a thought.

Kevin

[ChimeraKennels]

I am a rookie in terms of sewing. I am just getting started with a few crafts...so I was curious if I "just got lucky" or if the motors changed. Being the motor is 50 years old...I hope it continues to last as it appears to be able to meet all my needs..>BUT I HAVEN'T TRIED my heaviest stuff yet. Hopefully it will work well there too. I will find out soon. I am waiting on a new table top from Bob before reassembling everything after bringing it home.

Anyway, upon seeing some of the other conversations, I noticed that many stated they updated their old clutch motor with new servo motors.

I also noticed that when looking at various motors, one could get a "low rpm" clutch motor. It seems like that would be a low cost solution to many of the problems that some are having with some of the servo motors. If it isn't slow enough, a small pulley or gear reduction would slow it down even more...and add power to boot. Yes, it will be drawing power when it is on, but with the switch right there in the front, I don't see that being a big deal either.

Just sharing a few thoughts and questions among my observations.

[Wizcrafts]

Chimera;

You have a lot to learn about motors. Baby steps...

Clutch motors have been the standard of the needle trade for the best part of a century. They are made in various configurations, like 2 phase 110v, 3 phase 220v, 1725 RPM and 3450 RPM. Most garment machines used in factories are equipped with 3450 RPM motors. Most motors sold for personal use, or for use on walking foot machines are 1725 RPM. Walking foot machines usually have a 1/2 HP 1725 RPM motor as standard equipment. Pulleys are available in diameters from under 2" to 5" or bigger.

To add to the confusion, most of the older motors have a 3/4 inch bore, but some have a 5/8" shaft.

Servo motors are built in a variety of drive systems and with varying shaft diameters. I have some with a 1/2 or 9/16 inch bore and others with 5/8 inch.

You need to spend some time actually using you motor and machine before jumping to conclusions about the characteristics of this or that design. Furthermore, the motor/reducer systems used on the 441 clones are completely different than anything you are yet familiar with. You cannot accurately comment of these motors until you have actually used one or more for a period of time. Each one acts slightly differently from the others. Some have fabulous low end control, while others have a hair trigger between off and full on.

It sounds like you got really lucky with your machine and motor. If the clutch wears down you can buy a replacement brake or clutch, or replace the entire motor with either a new clutch, or new servo motor. Then, you'll have a learning curve with the rebuilt or replaced motor.

[Ferg]

I don't have a Cobra or 441 clone of any kind but I do have a Consew 206RB5 and a Seiko CW8B1. Consew is a Flatbed, Seiko a cylinder arm. Wiz is familiar with both machines.

The Consew came from a dealer in California. I requested a Servo Motor which works perfectly for me. I also have a speed reducer on this machine, couldn't do a darn thing with it if I didn't have the reducer. I can slow it down to one stitch at a time or let it run like a rabbit, it is 3/4 HP. This machine will sew 3/8" thickness with no problem.

The Seiko came from Bob at Toledo. One of Bob's Servo motors. Wiz told me to set the speed dial in the middle, that works perfect for me with one exception, when sewing 1/4" of leather I need to increase the speed dial some so I have enough torque. Part of the time I have to give the wheel a quick pull for it to sew and still be slow as I wish it to be. If there is any difference in these two Servos at all, the one on the Consew may be a little bit more powerful.

If I was doing leather work for a living I would certainly have one of the "Professional" Servos.

Just my .02.

BTW: I have communicated with Wiz frequently as well as talking with him personally while at Toledo. I have learned more than I could have imagined from Wiz and Bob. They have never hesitated to answer any of my multitude of questions with expert guidance. I am also sure that Steve, Ronnie, Greg and all of the remainder of dealers and professionals have the same mind set.

ferg

Chimera;

You have a lot to learn about motors. Baby steps...

Clutch motors have been the standard of the needle trade for the best part of a century. They are made in various configurations, like 2 phase 110v, 3 phase 220v, 1725 RPM and 3450 RPM. Most garment machines used in factories are equipped with 3450 RPM motors. Most motors sold for personal use, or for use on walking foot machines are 1725 RPM. Walking foot machines usually have a 1/2 HP 1725 RPM motor as standard equipment. Pulleys are available in diameters from under 2" to 5" or bigger.

To add to the confusion, most of the older motors have a 3/4 inch bore, but some have a 5/8" shaft.

Servo motors are built in a variety of drive systems and with varying shaft diameters. I have some with a 1/2 or 9/16 inch bore and others with 5/8 inch.

You need to spend some time actually using you motor and machine before jumping to conclusions about the characteristics of this or that design. Furthermore, the motor/reducer systems used on the 441 clones are completely different than anything you are yet familiar with. You cannot accurately comment of these motors until you have actually used one or more for a period of time. Each one acts slightly differently from the others. Some have fabulous low end control, while others have a hair trigger between off and full on.

It sounds like you got really lucky with your machine and motor. If the clutch wears down you can buy a replacement brake or clutch, or replace the entire motor with either a new clutch, or new servo motor. Then, you'll have a learning curve with the rebuilt or replaced motor.

[ChimeraKennels]

No doubt I am a rookie here. When I get everything back together after updating the set up, I hope everything works like it did when I tested it out. I will post some pictures and video if all goes well. If not, I will need to lube the brain here some more. LOL.:brainbleach:

Wiz, I will be the first to admit, I know nothing about these motors. Did I say something specifically wrong or inaccurate above? I realize they come in different phases and volts. I have a 220 circuit here for some of my wood working tools (80" belt sanders, table saws, dust collection, etc). I not only train guard dogs, but also make longbows.

I am doing what I can to learn...but the old saying "the proof is in the pudding" also comes to mind. Meaning, if it does everything I need, I will keep using this motor. If not, then I will holler back to find out what's next.

Edited June 5, 2012 by ChimeraKennels

[Wizcrafts]

Nah, it's just that until you get foot-on experience with the various motors, you aren't in a good position to make suggestions to those who are having problems adapting to their motors.

From your first description of your new machine, you won't have any trouble feathering the clutch for slow speeds. If you find that your motor is a little weak when you sew the thickest load it can clear, move up to the next higher motor in horsepower, or install a smaller motor pulley, or install a speed reducer pulley system.

One advantage your clutch motor gives that many servo motors don't provide, is a physical brake that releases before the clutch engages. Releasing the brake allows you to freely hand-wheel the machine for precision sewing around strap tips, turnarounds, buckles and dee rings, etc.

There are some servo motors that have a brake, like the SewPro 500, which is now sold as the Toledo Sew Slow. Touching the pedal releases the brake, so one can freewheel the machine. It has a knob on the back that limits the top speed, as mentioned by Ferg, in his reply #7. There is another family of brake equipped servos that I recently discovered, but have not been able to test yet. They also have a single knob to limit the top speed, rather than the awkward up/down push buttons and their strange sequences to set startup and top speeds.

If you find that the motor tends to get away sometimes, put a tennis ball under the floor pedal. The squish-able ball provides resistance that can help you control the motor. It's an old trick I learned in an industrial sewing machine shop where I worked for a while. They used that trick with new sewers, especially if they bought high speed Jukis. When I say high speed, I ain't kiddin' Pilgrim. I'm talkin' 3000 stitches per minute, flat out. By comparison, leather sewers usually gear their machines down to a top speed of about 360 to 600 stitches per minute. The big 441 clones are geared down by as much a 9:1, meaning a 3500 RPM motor actually turns the machine at only 400 stitches per minute, or about 6.5 stitches per second, top speed. With no releasable brake, these machines are very hard to turn by hand for single stitching.

Stick with your clutch motor until it needs a clutch reline, or until it burns out. Then worry about a replacement. If you find you need more precise low speed control, contact our dealers to see what servos they have that will drop into the three holes in your table, and have the control lever on the bottom of the motor. My SewPro (aka: Sew Slow) is built that way.

Something else you may want to consider is that if you are sewing mostly nylon webbing collars and leads, you can go really fast without burning the material or thread. Leather heats up the needle markedly at high speeds. I often have smoke coming from the needle as I sew the edges on production strap runs.

Last tip: Get a swing-away, or drop down edge guide for your machine.

[bruce johnson]

Just a question here. I started off with a clutch motor on a 205-64. I upgraded it to a servo motor maybe 6 years ago. That servo had a screwdriver adjust that limited the top speed. I had a good range of pedal travel and control. When I bought the 2000 that servo was an option I took except it had a dial instead having to adjust it with a screwdriver. I got the 1245 with the same motor too. I really never thought it about it until Wiz brought up the brake release on the new servos. I have been doing that on this motor without ever thinking about it. It seems to release the same as the clutch motor used to. There is nothing digital on it, just a sinple rotary dial. Is this type of servo motor still available?

Another control tip that sure helped my was to stop using the pedal like the gas pedal in my truck. I am kind of a drive with the ball of my foot guy behind the wheel. A local sewing machine guy taught me to put my whole foot on the sewing machine pedal. "Toe to go and heel to slow" was his saying. When I just had the ball of my foot on it, there was a little lag from letting up until the spring pulled it up. Using my whole foot and pushing that that heel down really slows it faster and gives me more control. .