Contributing Member Ferg Posted July 12, 2012 Contributing Member Report Posted July 12, 2012 You need to read all the posts, namely mine and Art's. Many of us have helped folks on this forum with material and tools. I won't send money to anyone that I do not know. That reminds me of the guy standing at an intersection wanting money instead of a job. ferg Who's fighting? I'm just pointing out that this is a way people start businesses. Even before Kickstarter this is how many people start businesses. And again.. She's not asking for a handout. She's not asking anyone to just give her money. She's offering promised goods and services in exchange for start up capital. Why beat her up for it? She already has 9 backers and will probably have a solid customer base if her plans go through and YOUR venture could be listed on her site for a couple bucks of kindness. Either you don't want to help her or you do. There's no need to give her an earful about why you don't like the way she's chosen to start her business. People who don't want to answer our questions here just don't answer them. Can you imagine how we'd feel if they sat us down and told us why each time?
Members DoubleC Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 Actually I wanted to point out how most of us agreed with you and Art but you've been left out of all the comments Ferg. Thanks for stepping in again. Cheryl http://www.etsy.com/shop/DoubleCCowgirl
Members bdt46 Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 I must agree with the majority here! Some 44 years ago when I started in the leather business( saddles, tack, whatever), I made a deal with the bank I do business with. I don't loan money or fund businesses, and my bank doesn't do leatherwork. When one of us needs the others services, we are there for each other, and pay for what we need from each other. Has worked well for me all these years.
Members Spinner Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 Every question you answer here has the same potential though. We all are literally teaching our possible future competition how to replace us here. Doesn't seem to bother anyone because we know they can only replace us if their work is better than ours or they're a better salesperson. So, only when cash is involved does it seem to actually matter and lets not pretend the goods for sale section here doesn't exist. Apparently plenty of people try to sell leather goods to other leatherworkers here. Where's the complaining on those posts? I agree that this is mostly the wrong audience for her but she's not really trying to sell us lanyards. She's trying to fund a start up. People who think she's trying to sell them leathergoods have simply missed the point. As long as the potential rewards are stated I have no problem with what level the rewards fall under. A service is a service even if all it does is give you the right to have the warm fuzzies. It's a fairly common practice on Kickstarter. I agree Jack, every question answered does have that potential. And just to confirm, I'm not arguing either, just talking here. So in response, asking a question on how to do something vs. kickstarter...asking how to fish vs. asking for help to create a new fish. This is neither, it's asking for help to buy the fish store. This particular scenario is a request for venture capital to establish a business without providing the normal financials, qualifications or experience a VC proposal would normally contain. Speaking of which, the question of whether or not this qualifies for Kickstarter came up earlier and based on the description compared to the Kickstarter project guidelines, it's a direct violation of Kickstarter's Guildelines in various areas. It's obvious the reviewer didn't read through the whole 'project' as Kickstarter is meant to finance individual projects or creative works, not start-up businesses. The fact that it's a Staff Pick just adds to the dubious nature of the "review" process. And yes, there are many so-called 'projects' like this on there...but that doesn't make any of them right or a non-violation. Kickstarter even states that they do miss some and they rely on the community to report violations that occur. http://www.kickstarter.com/help/guidelines (see #1, 2.1 & 3.2 ...you have to expand the design & tech to see 2.1) Now if this had been a request for say, "help me with this project, my goal is to design and create a new style of saddlebag never seen before" then I'd be all for it and probably contribute just to follow the effort and hear back on how it panned out. Spinner, I am copying everything you put even though I have help with my business plan, and funding down the road, etc. You make some very good points I haven't considered yet. Thanks for posting this, it took a lot of effort and I appreciate it. Cheryl My pleasure Cheryl, glad it helped someone. Chris Three Mutts Customs Leather - http://www.threemuttscustoms.com
Members DoubleC Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 You've been there and done it, plus have a financial background. I've been working on my start up since around January I think and I've gotten impatient at times, but I know all the pre work and paperwork will make things smoother when my grant goes through. Was it you who said you thought the number was a little inflated? Because I know my grant's going to be for $1500.00 and that's going to be plenty to get really started good, but of course I do get things myself as I can. It will be nice though to be able to relax just a couple months after the grant before I have to pick up the slack again if things aren't selling as projected. But I can't think that far ahead, LOL, with me it's honestly one foot in front of the other until I can breathe, then I'll look at the big picture :-) But I do appreciate it Chris, this is my weakest area. Cheryl http://www.etsy.com/shop/DoubleCCowgirl
Members HellfireJack Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 You need to read all the posts, namely mine and Art's. Many of us have helped folks on this forum with material and tools. I won't send money to anyone that I do not know. That reminds me of the guy standing at an intersection wanting money instead of a job. ferg I have read all of the posts Ferg. I'm not saying anyone here isn't helpful to others. There's no finger pointing in any of my posts. I don't really get where you see me saying people here aren't helpful. I respect your opinion but I've seen Kickstarter work exactly as intended just like this. I think you guys are only seeing the leather work and don't like that someone is trying to get up to speed faster than you all did. It's just not the same as asking for a handout. This is really no different than buying Girl Scout cookies from a girl scout. She's not begging for money. She's selling you overpriced cookies so she can go do what she wants and you don't buy Girl Scout cookies because you need them even if Thin Mints are as addicting as crack. You buy them because you feel like it and you know it's helping someone. Just because it took some of you 5+ years of work and waste to get a foot hold doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow your business model. If this was a tech forum and it was some person trying to start a niche for their own rep-rap machine to help drive down the prices of home fab labs I don't think anyone would be dogging her about how she's operating at all. I was into the Maker scene before I started leatherworking so I tend towards encouraging progress in Maker related things rather than hindering it. The world changes all the time. The internet makes it change even faster. Gotta get used to it. The reed that does not bend in the wind eventually must break.
Members DoubleC Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 Jack I just don't get what you're saying. I'm not concerned she's starting a business in leather, and I don't mind if she gets up to speed faster than I do. It just ain't gonna be with my money, ;period. And I would be embarrassed to even ask. I've seen those Kiva ads or something on TV for 3rd world countries to loan people 500 bucks or something so they can start a business. I'm not afraid of those ;people taking away my customers either. Operative word ,LOAN. Cheryl http://www.etsy.com/shop/DoubleCCowgirl
Members HellfireJack Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 Jack I just don't get what you're saying. I'm not concerned she's starting a business in leather, and I don't mind if she gets up to speed faster than I do. It just ain't gonna be with my money, ;period. And I would be embarrassed to even ask. I've seen those Kiva ads or something on TV for 3rd world countries to loan people 500 bucks or something so they can start a business. I'm not afraid of those ;people taking away my customers either. Operative word ,LOAN. Cheryl snip...I don't know whether to be angry, insulted or just laugh thinking you couldn't have thought this through or was given some really poor advice. snip... Well I wasn't exactly responding to you Cheryl but apparently you do care what she's doing though. I've never been angry or insulted by someone who am I not concerned about nor have I ever told someone whom I don't care about how their personal choices might have been made via bad advice. Who here is really truly afraid she's going to steal your customers? Raise your hand. If she does steal your customers do you all honestly think it's how she get there that caused them to bail on you or do you think it would be her products that made them switch? Seems to me that possible future client theft is a bogus point entirely.
Members DoubleC Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 Absolutely bogus point. How can we be arguing on the same side? http://www.etsy.com/shop/DoubleCCowgirl
Members HellfireJack Posted July 12, 2012 Members Report Posted July 12, 2012 I agree Jack, every question answered does have that potential. And just to confirm, I'm not arguing either, just talking here. So in response, asking a question on how to do something vs. kickstarter...asking how to fish vs. asking for help to create a new fish. This is neither, it's asking for help to buy the fish store. This particular scenario is a request for venture capital to establish a business without providing the normal financials, qualifications or experience a VC proposal would normally contain. Speaking of which, the question of whether or not this qualifies for Kickstarter came up earlier and based on the description compared to the Kickstarter project guidelines, it's a direct violation of Kickstarter's Guildelines in various areas. It's obvious the reviewer didn't read through the whole 'project' as Kickstarter is meant to finance individual projects or creative works, not start-up businesses. The fact that it's a Staff Pick just adds to the dubious nature of the "review" process. And yes, there are many so-called 'projects' like this on there...but that doesn't make any of them right or a non-violation. Kickstarter even states that they do miss some and they rely on the community to report violations that occur. http://www.kickstart...help/guidelines (see #1, 2.1 & 3.2 ...you have to expand the design & tech to see 2.1) Now if this had been a request for say, "help me with this project, my goal is to design and create a new style of saddlebag never seen before" then I'd be all for it and probably contribute just to follow the effort and hear back on how it panned out. I can't really speak to how Kickstarter approves their projects. But looking through her page it looks like she already had a business though and her project is to improve the quality and design of her products and improve the quality of her online store. You're right though, I see projects that are meant to be businesses all the time on Kickstarter. I don't think they care too much as long as it isn't blatent "GIVE ME MONEY FOR THIS FAKE THING I WANT TO TRY" bs. I'm pretty sure they know their site is about commerce. It's mentioned ALL OVER the thing. Perhaps you should bring the issue to them? Absolutely bogus point. How can we be arguing on the same side? Even a broken clock is right at least twice a day.
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