Flat Back Pancake

[chiefjason]

So, after being in some discussions about flat back pancakes I decided to give it a try. It took some thought to figure out the process I wanted to use. I initially started with one for my wife's Kahr CW 9. In the middle of making it I remembered I wanted it to have snaps. Well, that's where my problems started. This holster is pretty much a mess. I'm simply not going to show the back, it's bad and I know where and why. I'm going to let my wife try it out and I'll be replacing it pretty quick.

My step brother has a buddy that is a detective in a local PD. He called me wanting a pancake for his LCR. We kicked around a few ideas. First it was a thumb break. But the LCR really does not lend itself to a thumb break. So we went with a standard pancake. And it gave me a chance at another flat back. Now the revolver was a bit tougher to work with than a semi. But I am pretty happy with the result. My biggest concern is the trigger guard area. I want to see what the real gun looks like in there. I thought I gave it more coverage than that. I have an LC9 in process now too.

Both holsters are 8-9 oz Hermann Oak. I bought some of the shoulders that were on sale at Springfield and I have been very happy with them. I got to use my new groovers, an adjustable and a freehand. I also got to use my awl some more. I have to say, the right tools really speed up the process. Hand stitched at 5 spi. Vinegroon black with black atom wax and mop and glow finish.

[FybrOptx]

I do not care what you say about the first holster; I think it looks great. I am really interested in how you worked the snaps (I am assuming that the snaps let you remove the holster w/o removing the belt) because I wanted to do a design similar to that.

[chiefjason]

Thanks. The front looks good, at least from that distance. But winging it is really not a good plan with leather. I got into working it and remembered I wanted snaps and tried to work them in. Not a good idea.

What I can tell you is this. The belt loops need to be a bit longer than you usually want them. And you will need more room on the bottom than I have allowed for. This holster is likely not even usable in it's current state. Although it will snap together fine. I did not leave enough room to compensate for fitting over the belt. At this point I can't get one of the snaps to fasten over the belt. Lesson learned. Plan it out or waste leather. And longer loops and more room for the snaps.

To the technique. The outside of the loop is designed to pass behind the belt. So my cuts on the front are from the bottom of the loop straight to the outside. On the back my cuts are from the other side of the loop and towards the bottom. The best plan would be to work all this out before glueing; make your cuts and not glue the area you want to place the snaps in. Like I said, more planning would have helped. But this was kind of a demo holster anyway. First flat back and first try at snaps. So I'll chalk it up as practice.

Here's a pic of the snaps that might make this more clear.

[FybrOptx]

Wow! That is exactly what I needed! I can take that and run with it. Thanks a heap! I have a question tho: would the single layer of leather where the snaps are reduce strength of the loop? If so, could the belt loop area have an extra layer sewn in to reinforce it? or would that make it too bulky and make the snaps not fit?

[chiefjason]

Good question, but with 8-9 oz leather I think it would be fine. I make single layer hybrids out of 8-9 and 9-10 oz and have not had a loop fail yet. Sewing another layer would be pretty time consuming and bulky I would think.

[FybrOptx]

I was thinking more of a layer of something other than leather as a reinforcement, like a synthetic (perhaps nylon) or something to that effect... That would minimize the added bulk if making it negligible altogether. I do see your point on the 8-9 oz leather tho; that is what I am currently using. Thank you again for posting the pics!

[chiefjason]

Finished up another on for an LC9. This one is going to the brother of the guy that bought the LCR.

Thoughts and comments are always appreciated.

[Dfarm]

are you wet forming the leather before or after you sew the front and back togeather? if you are sewing first, how do you judge how much bigger the front half needs to be ? I love this style of holster, but cant make sewing the halves togeather first like on a normal pancake work in my head. lol

thanks for any tips you could pass along.

[Dwight]

When I make a pancake, . . . they are almost always flat backed, . . . I personally find the others uncomfortable on my bony frame.

I use a vacuum forming technique, . . . the back piece of leather is dry, . . . I wet the front.

The holster has the back completely cut out and formed other than the slots. The front is intentionally left a little long and wide,

The leading edge of the holster having the front sight, etc. is all sewn, edged, beveled, etc. at this point.

Again, . . . I only wet that front piece, . . . lay the weapon in it's place, . . . put it in my vacuum machine, . . . and watch the magic.

Once it is vacuum formed, . . . I gently pull out the molding firearm, . . . and hang the leather up to dry.

When dry, . . . put the two pieces together with the weapon inside, . . . mark, cut, glue, edge, bevel, sew and finish.

I could probably save some time by developing an exact pattern for each weapon I do, . . . but honestly, . . . so few of them are the exact same weapon, . . . it is easier for me to do my process.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited December 28, 2012 by Dwight

[Dfarm]

ok, so you leave the trigger side open until its moulded. thanks for the tip!

[chiefjason]

I'm hand boning mine, but it's a lot like what Dwight is talking about. I wet the front piece, let it set a bit, then mold it to the gun. I mold it all the way down to the table top. I cut it longer on the sides, but I'm starting to cut it pretty close on the bottom instead of leaving it long. It makes for less trimming in the end, and trimming the molded portion can be tricky if you go too long. I generally cut a workable pattern out of cardboard as a guide for cutting my leather.

Once it's molded I let it dry. I cut the back to the exact size I want it. Put the gun back in and line everything up and mark the leather where I want it. Glue it and clamp it. Trim the edges, sand them, and get them about 90% done. Then I lay out my stitch grooves and stitch holes. I normally pre punch all the holes too. Then I groon the leather and dry it in a hot box. I oil the holster. Then I sew it after it's oiled. After sewing I wax and finish it.

I used to groon then sew. But I started noticing that the wax from my thread was acting like a resist to the groon. It's much less work to sew last. I've got a 1911 that will be finished tomorrow.

[SooperJake]

The leading edge of the holster having the front sight, etc. is all sewn, edged, beveled, etc. at this point.

Dwight, can you further explain this part? If I read you right, you have not sewn on the trigger guard side?

[Dwight]

Dwight, can you further explain this part? If I read you right, you have not sewn on the trigger guard side?

Yessir, . . . that is correct. The leading edge of my pancake is for all tense and purposes done, . . . the back half still needs everything, . . . but it will not happen until the "middle" step is done, . . . which is the molding.

Hope this helps.

May God bless,

Dwight

[Bobby hdflame]

I really like the snap idea. The silver snaps look good, but you could use black snaps for someone looking not to draw attention.

I don't know if you know about "Pull The Dot Snaps, but if you're concerned about them accidentally coming unsnapped, you could use them. Here's a couple of videos showing how they work and how to install them.

http://www.sailrite.com/Pull-The-Dot-Snap-Fasteners-Locking-Snap-or-One-Way-Snap-Streaming-Video

You can set up a commercial account with Sailrite in order to get better pricing.

Thanks for sharing your snap idea.

[chiefjason]

Bobby,

I've got black pull the dots on order right now. Ordered them directly from dot. Just sucked it up and ordered 100 as it was the minimum. I'm going to make loops with them too. After much tinkering I finally got the hang of them. The video you posted is probably the one that got everything to click in my head about how to set them up. And those snaps are actually black line 24's, but there is probably a ton of glare on them.

[Bobby hdflame]

You know, I just ran across this post again, and while reading it over I had a thought. There were a couple of questions about how much to allow extra on the top/front piece of leather to allow for forming.

When I make a pattern for a semi-auto, I allow 1/2 the thickness of the gun as the distance around the guns outline for the stitch line. Since you're molding the front and back, 1/2 the thickness works out because you have twice the leather you're molding around the gun.

If I wanted to just mold the front piece of leather, I could allow the thickness of the gun (Instead of just 1/2) on just the top piece and not the bottom. Wouldn't this work out?

Now I'm trying to think about how to attach the two sides together?? Finish one side, like was said above, mold, then sew and finish the other? I'm thinking for a flat back, that I could make a press using wood on the bottom and neoprene just on the top. That way only the top should form to the gun, the back should remain flat on the wood. Also, just wet the top.

I could just form the top and then stitch to a flat piece of leather I guess. Since I use a machine to sew, wasn't sure how easy it would be to stitch close enough to the edge of the molded area. I guess I just need to try it!

Any thoughts from anyone else?

[chiefjason]

Personally, I cut the back piece to the exact dimensions I want it. That is my guide for the finished holster. I just eyeball the front. The top is cut where I want it and I cut the sides long enough to compensate for molding and cut the bottom just a touch long too. I think adding the thickness of the gun to the edges should work. I also lay the gun down and get it where I want it on the back side, then lay the unmolded top on, flip the gun and top over and sketch out a guide for where I want the gun to be when I start molding. Another plus is that I burnish the inside before I mold, and reburnish it before I finish if I'm leaving the inside natural on the finished holster.

When I mold the leather I mold it all the way to the table top. Then I put it in the oven to dry. You may need to put some weight on the "wings" so they don't turn up in the oven.

When I start glueing I get the 2 pieces lined up where I want them. Then I draw a line around the back of the holster onto the longer front as a guide. Then I do the same on the inside. That gives me a guide to lay out my glue on the back. Then I glue, clamp, and let dry. Once it's dry I trim to shape, edge it, and lay out my stitch lines.

After that I normally dye the leather before sewing it. It does not effect the glue. Even grooning and soaking is the baking soda bath is fine.

I hand bone mine, so no thoughts on pressing. I also hand stitch mine. I'm curious about using a machine on these too.

I finally made myself one. I used some local guys as guinea pigs on these. I am really liking it so far. I need to take some pics of the next one I make. I just bought a CZ83 so I'll probably do one for it next.

[supercub]

It's actually pretty easy to stitch along the molded portion with a machine IF you use the correct presser foot. Rather than using the normal double presser foot that comes with the machine, I use a left or right foot that allows you to get right up to the molded edge. Makes it a lot easier. Most machines have the option for different feet. Replacement feet for both the Boss and the various Juki clones are readily available.

Now if somebody would just design a functional French box stitcher fixture that works on the Boss or Juki.......

[chiefjason]

Since this thread has jumped back up I'll throw my newest one on. I finally made one for my G19. Man, I am loving this holster! Been wearing it as much as possible the last couple days.

[supercub]

I tried a couple of new (to me) processes on the two holsters and mag pouch below. The metal belt clips are the second try after a less than quality experience with kydex. Still looking for a better option for clips. The Colt holster is a double front layer of 4/5 molded and then sewn to a 9 oz back. I had not used the vinagaroon process before - I like it, I think I will use it more! The S&W holster is an OLD piece of W&C drum dyed chestnut in 9oz.

This brings up the question - how old is too old when dealing with leather? Most of my existing leather are remanants left over from 8 or 10 years ago when I was building a lot of knife sheaths for custom makers. I moved away and sort of got out of leather working for a while. Now I'm back to making the occaisional holster for myself or friends. The leather was stored in cool, dark, dry storage and loosely rolled. It is dry to work and needs a little moisture to cut cleanly. It will bend without cracking, but it is a challenge to get good detail molding. Most of the horse butts I had, did not store as well. They tended to crack when trying to bend or mold. I know, I need to buy new leather, but I hate to throw away useable stock - any suggestions?