Thread Size Comparisons

[RiverCity]

I've been reading up on thread sizes and uses etc, along with thread/needle charts. The problem I'm having is that I can't visualize the thread sizes.

Has anyone put together or have run across a picture based explanation? Something like lines of stitches in different thread weights compared to a ruler or a penny or something?

Chuck

[Wizcrafts]

Here is a thread size vs needle size chart. The diameter of each size thread is listed in the right-most column.

[RiverCity]

Thanks Wiz! I've studied that one. I'm just having trouble picturing sizes.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm looking for picture comparison of thread sizes, especially against a known object etc to see what looks right for what I need.

Chuck

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

I understand the question well...it's really a see, touch, feel kind of thing.

Kind of like working with pipe fittings and such; after a while working with them, see, touch, feel, you just know from experience what sizes are what, more or less. Thread can throw you off once in a while, but you just know after a while, more or less.

[Wizcrafts]

Chuck;

I'll try to give you a better understanding by describing typical uses of the various sizes of thread (in leather work).

First of all, the thread uses in leather sewing machines is usually bonded nylon or polyester. Harness stitchers can also use linen thread that is run through a wax pot. The bonded threads are referred to as numbers, or a letter-number, such as #69 or T70 (equivalents). Linen thread is rated by the number of cords that are twisted together and glazed in place (e.g. 4 cord).

The sewing thread used for leather increases in diameter and strength as its number increases. If we use #69 = 1 (11 pounds test) as the baseline, #92 = 1.5x, #138 = 2x, #207 = 3x, #277 = 4x and #346 = 5x.

The threads uses for hand sewing leather are normally rated by the number of cords that are twisted and waxed together. They seem to average a range of between 4 and 7 cords. Four cords would be about the same diameter as a #207 or 277 bonded thread, but would have much less breaking strength. Linen, cotton, or hemp cord is not typically as strong as nylon or polyester of the same diameter.

A holster that one would hand sew with 6 cord waxed linen thread could be sewn with #277 bonded nylon and be just as strongly secured, per stitch. However, the 6 cord thread would actually be thicker and look more impressive to the eye.

If you are at all familiar with the thread that is used to sew a normal dress shirt, think of it as about the equivalent of a bonded #33 or even a #46. Think about the thread that is used to top stitch your jeans and it will fall around the same thickness as our bonded #69 or bonded #92.

Leather garments are usually sewn with thread sizes ranging from #69 to #138. The #138 is used to hold thicker seams together. It has 22 pounds of test per stitch. Zippers are usually sewn with #69 or #92, so look at the outside zippers on a leather jacket for a reference.

Upholstery shops normally use a lot of #69 bonded nylon, unless extra strength (or extra thickness) is needed. Then, they'll switch to a machine loaded with #138 bonded nylon. Marine upholstery sewers avoid nylon where the material is exposed to the Sun and outside elements. Instead, they sew with bonded polyester thread, which is a lot more expensive, but isn't as affected by UV rays or wild temperature swings.

Might I ask what you want to sew? I can recommend the best range of thread sizes and types based on your expectations and type/model of your sewing machine. Some sewing machines cannot handle anything larger than #69 bonded thread. Others can go up to #138, or even #207. The big machines that we refer to as 441 clones are able to sew with very heavy bonded thread, all the way up to #415. That is about the same size as the linen thread used to sew leather soles onto boots.

[RiverCity]

Thanks again Wiz, the references to items helps a lot. I'll be sewing pockets on cases, and general bag work. Nothing super heavy duty (8oz + 5oz). Wallets and belt edges.

From what I've gathered 138 would be a viable choice for cases and bags with 207 being used if extra strength is needed. And 69 for pocket items like wallets and such.

I'm getting a 227 from Bob in a couple of weeks.

Chuck

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks again Wiz, the references to items helps a lot. I'll be sewing pockets on cases, and general bag work. Nothing super heavy duty (8oz + 5oz). Wallets and belt edges.

From what I've gathered 138 would be a viable choice for cases and bags with 207 being used if extra strength is needed. And 69 for pocket items like wallets and such.

I'm getting a 227 from Bob in a couple of weeks.

Chuck

I agree with your thread size choices. Always use a thread size (or combination) that allows you to bury the lockstitch knots well inside the layers. Needle size can affect the position of the knots considerably. If the needle is the minimum size for the top thread, the knots will be harder to pull into the bottom. Go too big and the knots may appear on top.

So, what kind of sewing machine are you using for these bags?

[RiverCity]

A cowboy 227. I went back and forth with the consew 206 flatbed class machines, and almost got talked into a 441 clone, but its more machine and capacity than I need. The 227 gives the cylinder arm advantage and with a flatbed attachment for wallets etc, should be good to go for my needs in a machine. Down the line I might add a big machine if the need arises.

Chuck

[Wizcrafts]

Okay. The CB227 is a good medium duty walking foot machine. It can handle all the thread sizes you will need for sewing belts and bags, and vests, zippers, hems, etc. All you need is a full range of needles and thread for the work you will be undertaking. Extra bobbins is a must when you start using multiple colors and I always keep quarts and small precision bottles of machine oil in the shop.

[RiverCity]

Sounds good! Bob is sending an invoice in the morning.

Thanks again for all your help Wiz, it is much appreciated.

Chuck

[kpkpkp]

This was a super helpful thread. A question: Can the Consew 206RB-5 at all sew #277 thread? I know it goes to #207, but sometimes I like something chunkier like 277 that looks more decorative and polished. Says it can handle the needle, but not the thread on the site, but wondering if it is truly impossible? I hardly ever sew leather layers thicker than 0.3". Is it even smart to sew with #277 if the layers combined aren't thicker than that?

[CowboyBob]

It's already a stretch to get it to sew 207,the tension needs to be tigthed alot,so 277 won't work.It would be nice if it could but they would be prone to jamming & breaking threads.

[kpkpkp]

Thanks Bob—I'm the one that called this morning. Maybe it IS best to to have two machines then? What would you recommend for doing #277? You can view my gallery to get an idea of the type of stuff that I'm sewing. Perhaps the consew 206RB-5 is good for the thinner stuff/denim/canvas. Is the 206RB-5 too heavy duty to do just plain cotton shirts?

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks Bob—I'm the one that called this morning. Maybe it IS best to to have two machines then? What would you recommend for doing #277? You can view my gallery to get an idea of the type of stuff that I'm sewing. Perhaps the consew 206RB-5 is good for the thinner stuff/denim/canvas. Is the 206RB-5 too heavy duty to do just plain cotton shirts?

I can sew medium weight cloth shirts and pants on my walking foot machine, which is similar to your Consew. However, you'll need to back off or remove the top pressure spring and loosen both upper and bobbin tension springs and use a very small needle that best suits the thread (e.g.: a #12 round point needle with #40 or #50 cotton or poly-core thread). The bobbin spring should just exert enough tension to keep the thread from unloading by its motion (install backwards to rotation). A star shaped anti-backlash spring inside the bobbin case helps prevent unloading of the thread with rotation and with sudden stops & starts. Reduce the upper tension to place the knots inside the shirt. You should be able to sew two layers of cotton or similar cloth using this technique.

Note: if your Consew has a heavy duty upper tension beehive spring, it may not be easy to balance the top tension against a minimal tension bobbin thread. You can order a lighter beehive spring from Bob, or borrow one from an old domestic sewing machine.

FYI: I use a separate machine that is just a straight stitch, bottom feed machine, for flat cloth sewing. The springs are lighter, the feed dogs are finer and the hole in the throat plate is smaller than the big hole inside the feeder on a walking foot machine.

[Wizcrafts]

kpkpkp;

Based on what you have been describing, you'll need three machines:

1. A heavy duty stitcher, like a 441 or Adler clone, for use with #277 thread and thick materials.
   
2. A walking foot machine for jeans, canvas and upholstery.
   
3. A straight stitch, light duty, high speed, cloth sewing machine that handles thin cotton thread without breaking it.
   

[kpkpkp]

kpkpkp;

Based on what you have been describing, you'll need three machines:

1. A heavy duty stitcher, like a 441 or Adler clone, for use with #277 thread and thick materials.
   
2. A walking foot machine for jeans, canvas and upholstery.
   
3. A straight stitch, light duty, high speed, cloth sewing machine that handles thin cotton thread without breaking it.
   

1. Do you have links to those specific machines or forums about them? How much should I expect to pay?

2. I have access to buy a newer Juki DDL-8500 for about $250ish—can this handle jeans/canvas/heavy duty? If not, is there a machine you recommend for under $1000?

3. I already have a 1960s straight stitch machine in my apt, so maybe I'll just hang onto that for these kinds of things.

Thanks for your help!

[Wizcrafts]

1. Do you have links to those specific machines or forums about them? How much should I expect to pay?

2. I have access to buy a newer Juki DDL-8500 for about $250ish—can this handle jeans/canvas/heavy duty? If not, is there a machine you recommend for under $1000?

3. I already have a 1960s straight stitch machine in my apt, so maybe I'll just hang onto that for these kinds of things.

Thanks for your help!

I thought you already had a walking foot Consew 206RB-?. If not, here is a link to read its specs. That is a perfect machine for heavy cloth, canvas, webbing, denim and medium density leather (up to 3/8 inch thickness).

Your old straight stitch machine will do shirts and cloth pants. I use an old Singer 31-15 tailor's machine, or an ancient Singer 66-1 for flat work with cotton thread.

Now, here is a heavy duty leather sewing machine that can easily handle #277 (and more), into over 3/4 inch of real leather.

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Wiz, putting in some overtime around here on leatherworker.net!@#. I'm sure people appreciate it, too. Very cool.

[Wizcrafts]

Wiz, putting in some overtime around here on leatherworker.net!@#. I'm sure people appreciate it, too. Very cool.

Gregg is too modest. Thanks.

FYI: Gregg sells industrial sewing machines and attachments of all kinds, including custom made edge guides. He stocks a bunch of good motors. Gregg needs to think about placing an ad banner on LWN.

[bullmoosepaddles]

I know this is an older thread. But it came up in the search I did this morning. I have a consew 206-rb. Does the bobbin accept the thicker threads without modification. I wish to sew bonded 138 top and bottom. Making small heavy duty pouches, My wish is to have the thread look identical on both sides. I have been using it with only 69 so far.  

Thank you for the time and consideration. You guys help the rest of us so much. 

  

[Wizcrafts]

3 hours ago, bullmoosepaddles said:

I know this is an older thread. But it came up in the search I did this morning. I have a consew 206-rb. Does the bobbin accept the thicker threads without modification. I wish to sew bonded 138 top and bottom. Making small heavy duty pouches, My wish is to have the thread look identical on both sides. I have been using it with only 69 so far.  

Thank you for the time and consideration. You guys help the rest of us so much. 

  

Yes! The Consew 206RB machines love #138 thread. Just use a #23 needle for the best results. You can also use a #22 needle, but the hole will be tighter and it will take more top tension to pull the knots up.

[bullmoosepaddles]

Wizcrafts,

Thank you kindly. A short while ago I read the etiquette about using older post. Point taken. Thank you for the help.  Hope you have a great day. .  

[speedybri]

Hi.  I know this thread is very old, sorry.  But I was wondering can a juki LS-341N sew heavier leather like 10 oz and above with linen thread as long as a wax pot is used?  Is there even a wax pot available for that machine?  

Thanks.