Exotic Ethics?

[Luke Hatley]

:wtf:

THEY MIGHT NOT BE IN ORDER ........I'VE SAID ENOUGH

[bruce johnson]

I come from a livestock background, and am just as narrow minded as anyone. Hides are a by-product, although now they call them "co-products" and animals are "harvested". I worked on the "kill floor" of a ''slaughter plant", so I guess that makes me a senior. I have no issues with animal rights people if they are informed and actually have seen the issues for themselves or might be affected. I had issues with people in San Francisco or LA, people who will never own a horse or be affected in the least, voting and telling me how I can or can't dispose of a dink horse. That was the the start and it ain't over yet. Legislated animal rights is not probably the answer to most of these issues. Ask the folks on the CA Monterey peninsula who voted to ban mountain lion control. Their dogs and semi-pet deer are being eaten in front of them now.

Most of the exotics we deal with are not endangered, and that distinction is sometimes lost on the uninformed. The non-farmed exotics covered by the CITES program may not be perfect, but it is probably closer to the bone than other systems. Our generation didn't make all this mess we are in, but I am not thinking we need to go back to ripping out fence and great buffalo herds on the plains, or things like that. World-wide the whole thing is off - prey animals with limited territory and feed, limited or too many predators, and disease due to concentration. Things got off at times without our help too. If they are managed by controlled hunting (and then utilized) to enable the rest of the species to at least maintain, I have no issues with that. If those hides are used and not fed to bacteria, bugs, and buzzards - so much the better for the by-product users and the awareness it brings.

[Bree]

I sometimes like to tie flies for fly fishing. My favorites are Atlantic Salmon Flies. They are difficult to tie, very colorful, extremely beautiful, and highly exotic in their materials and construction. One of the prime materials is the end of the neck feathers of a Jungle Cock.  It forms a little circle like an eye and the best patterns use Jungle Cock nails as cheeks near the head/eye of the hook.

There are people who tried to use photographic images of Jungle Cock nails but they are totally fake looking. Back in the '80s I used to jones for some genuine Jungle Cock feathers. Then I found a domestic source that had come into legal possession of a breeding pair and developed their own little flock of birds. They farmed them and made a limited supply of genuine and LEGAL Jungle Cock available to the fly tying community.

Back then a whole skin cost about $125. I bought one and I still have most of it. I treasure and cherish that skin and those feathers. I have the highest respect for the bird that once owned those lovely feathers. And somehow I feel that there is a lot more value to my caring for and sparingly using his feathers then having them rot shortly after the bird drops dead.

In any case, the proper farming of these exotics not only assures continued survival and strength of the species but gives to humanity wonderful artistic products that uplift and make life better. I have no problem farming exotics as I have no problem munching on a burger or some bacon.

[greg gomersall]

Exotics are neet, I have used gator on a few saddle seats. nice stuff to work with but very pricey. the nicest most unusaul stuff I have used was sealskin. I came accross a huge leporad seal skin 3 or 4 years ago and jumped thru a lot of hoops with the US Fur and Feathers dept. A 100 years ago the top of the line chaps from the west coast saddleries were sealskin. I built a set of chaps and wrist cuffs from this hide which cost me $165.00. I put another $1,600.00 worth of sterling on these chaps but it was very worth while. I sold the one of a kind chaps for $10,000.00. God I love Liberty, Freedom and Capitalism. Greg

[DCKNIVES]

I work primarily with exotics in my sheath and holster work.I buy from a legal hide dealer here and he only carries hides legally obtained and allowed by US law.I will not use anything on the endangered list.Now, I have had a few snake people raise concerns with me, but IMHO people keeping snakes as pets are removing them from the wild as well, so I don't pay much attention to them.I just ask them to call me when the snakes die so I can get the skin,lol.Dave

[Johanna]

I have met some deranged ignorant people in my leatherworking years, and you can imagine the hate mail admin gets now and then when some PETA member gets all riled up. I have had fake blood smeared on my shop windows- Jim- it wasn't the real thing, they just do it for attention. There is a section here called "leather is a byproduct of the meat industry" and that is true for 95% of the leathers we use or more. Anything else is covered by what UK Ray had to say. I lived in PA where they refused to let hunters take more deer, and they trampled the suburbs, starved and were hit by cars. It was pretty stupid, considering there were food banks lined up for the meat. PETA people are not reasonable. If you can be polite, just say, "That's an interesting assumption." and walk away. if you can't be polite, call 911 because they will get violent to "prove a point". A fur dealer had his store burned down. PETA people think they mean well, but they are often badly misinformed, and it's like they have been brainwashed. Most of them can't tell leather from plastic or vinyl or pleather either, and most of them are not vegans. So they have sweaty feet so no cows are killed for their skins while they eat a hamburger. Makes sense, huh?

Johanna

[TwinOaks]

Nothing on the endangered/protected lists. Other than that, with certain exceptions, they're fair game.

When I had a horse on my property, we had a problem with a HUGE buck challenging for territory. It was way outside of deer season, so we called the game warden. He came by to verify that we had livestock, then wrote out a permit. Point? There's a time when protected things don't have to be protected, and every living thing dies. I've got my eyes open for a monster rattlesnake at the stable where our horse is now. The size (estimated at a little over 12 feet, since it stretched across the road) makes it 'protected' according to the warden. The same warden said that if it's a danger to the horses we could dispatch it. So long as it stays up in the woods, it gets to live out its life. If it enters the pastures, well, sorry folks, I've already got somebody interested in the skin .

The OP mentioned elephant. Here's my thoughts on that: Yes, they are magnificant creatures, quite unlike anything else in the world. But if it's dead, I don't think it cares anymore. I don't support raising them just for hide harvesting, but if one dies.....peel it. Come to think of it, why don't we just go ahead an genetically rebuild some dinosaurs for hide and meat harvesting? I don't think anyone will see a T. Rex as cuddly, and I'm betting you could make a few saddles from just one hide....not to mention a few 'tooth knives', a nice pair of back scratchers, some industrial size umbrella stands, one hell of a barbeque......

Edited October 1, 2008 by TwinOaks

[tonyc1]

Nothing on the endangered/protected lists. Other than that, with certain exceptions, they're fair game.

When I had a horse on my property, we had a problem with a HUGE buck challenging for territory. It was way outside of deer season, so we called the game warden. He came by to verify that we had livestock, then wrote out a permit. Point? There's a time when protected things don't have to be protected, and every living thing dies. I've got my eyes open for a monster rattlesnake at the stable where our horse is now. The size (estimated at a little over 12 feet, since it stretched across the road) makes it 'protected' according to the warden. The same warden said that if it's a danger to the horses we could dispatch it. So long as it stays up in the woods, it gets to live out its life. If it enters the pastures, well, sorry folks, I've already got somebody interested in the skin .

The OP mentioned elephant. Here's my thoughts on that: Yes, they are magnificant creatures, quite unlike anything else in the world. But if it's dead, I don't think it cares anymore. I don't support raising them just for hide harvesting, but if one dies.....peel it. Come to think of it, why don't we just go ahead an genetically rebuild some dinosaurs for hide and meat harvesting? I don't think anyone will see a T. Rex as cuddly, and I'm betting you could make a few saddles from just one hide....not to mention a few 'tooth knives', a nice pair of back scratchers, some industrial size umbrella stands, one hell of a barbeque......

Do some rattle snakes grow that large?

Tony.

[greg gomersall]

I'm a proud member of PETA " People Eating Tastey Animals". Greg

[tonyc1]

I'm a proud member of PETA " People Eating Tastey Animals". Greg

Yeah, me too Greg!!!