Denatured Alcohol

[Red Cent]

Research shows that "rubbing alcohol" is ethanol. "Alcohol" is a term used these days that cover a broad spectrum of alcohols. Denatured alcohol is ethanol/alcohol with additives. There are a number of additives combined with alcohol to produce vomiting, retching, or other action that dissuade people from drinking the alcohol. Why do you use denatured alcohol for thinning dyes or cleaning tools? Unless I am missing something, why buy it?

[dirtclod]

Because denatured works and regular rubbing alcohol dosen't or it didn't work when i tried it.

[Northmount]

Buy Methyl Hydrate at your paint/lumber store. Low cost, 1 gallon / 4L size. Works well for thinning alcohol based dyes.

Tom

[Red Cent]

methanol.

[TexasJack]

Oh, I knew that degree in chemistry would come in handy one day....

Methanol is the simplest alcohol and only has one carbon. It's sometimes called "wood alcohol" and it's toxic.

Ethanol has 2 carbons and is the alcohol that you find in whiskey and beer. Because you find it in drinks, it is regulated by the U.S. Treasury Department's Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Division ("The Revenuers") and is subject to a steep tax. To get around that tax, ethanol is often made toxic by adding methanol and the mixture is referred to as "denatured alcohol". You can't boil the methanol out of the ethanol, so it's undrinkable. During Prohibition, quite a few people were permanently blinded by drinking denatured alcohol sold to them as moonshine. So now they add other stuff to it to make it bitter and (sometimes) to make you vomit to reduce the number of poisonings.

Isopropyl alcohol has 3 carbons and is the classic rubbing alcohol you keep in your medicine cabinet. It usually has a lot of water added to it, which is why it's not always a great solvent to use with oil-based dyes.

Methanol and ethanol are both pretty good solvents. Methanol is a bit more volatile (evaporates quicker), and that can be a bit of a drawback in using it, as well as being more toxic (including the fumes). Both light alcohols are very flammable, so be careful.

[TexasJack]

methanol

ethanol

Edited February 25, 2014 by TexasJack

[Studio-N]

As I understood it, denatured is free of any salts.

[TexasJack]

As I understood it, denatured is free of any salts.

You did not read my post. Denature, according to Merriam-Webster:

to deprive of natural qualities : change the nature of: as to make (alcohol) unfit for drinking (as by adding an obnoxious substance) without impairing usefulness for other purposes

Buy Methyl Hydrate at your paint/lumber store. Low cost, 1 gallon / 4L size. Works well for thinning alcohol based dyes.

Tom

Methyl hydrate is another term for methanol. Same stuff.

[benlilly1]

Thanks for the chemistry lesson Texas Jack...I just learned a lot!

Edited February 26, 2014 by benlilly1

[electrathon]

So is it good or bad to have more carbons? Is isopropyl or methanol better for thinning? You can buy 90 percent isopropyl if you look for it. Which one is a better solvent for leather dye?

[TexasJack]

The more carbons an alcohol has, the more it behaves like an oil and the less it wants to mix with water.

Without the "-OH" group (that makes it an alcohol), 1 carbon = methane, 2 carbons= ethane, 3 carbons = propane, 4 = butane, 8 = octane,

20 = diesel. With each additional carbon, the compound becomes less volatile, moving from gasses (methane) to very light liquids (butane) to very heavy liquids.

If you're using alcohol as a solvent, methanol will probably dissolve anything, but it will evaporate very quickly. Ethanol will dissolve most anything but will take a little bit longer to evaporate. Use isopropyl alcohol and it will probably have that "medicine" smell for quite a while. I would suggest avoiding using isopropyl.

Fieblings deglazer is a mixture of ethanol and ethyl acetate, which is a compound made by reacting ethanol with acetic acid (vinegar). Pretty volatile, but it strips the wax off the surface of the leather fast enough that you can get it clean before it's evaporated. I add this just as an example of an ethanol-like solvent.

Edited February 27, 2014 by TexasJack

[ChuckBurrows]

Well FWIW I've used plain ole 70% isopropyl alcohol now for thinning dyes for over 50 years - never had a problem due to the added water, although recently I've gone to the 90% and thin with water to 70% - I was taught to always dampen first for better penetration anyway so for me it works

for cleaning and deglazing I mix a quart of 90% with a cup of cheap lemon juice

Edited February 27, 2014 by ChuckBurrows

[Fowlingpiece]

I , like Chuck have always used Isopropyl 70 for about 30 years. It was not until we got a wallyworld in town that I found an option for percentages so I usually go with the 90 now.

I try to reserve my denatured for my spirit lamp.

[BDAZ]

A while ago I checked out the MSDS of all the Tandy dyes, cements and solvents. (I hold some patents on soy based solvents.) The primary alcohol appears to be ethanol so I would assume that denatured ethanol would make the best solvent. One of the standard saying in the solvent industry is "Like dissolves like"

Cya!

Bob

[grampajoe]

Hi, I'm new so bear with me, as a retired pharmacist we can tell you that Rubbing alcohol is 70% isopropyl alcohol and the rest water. A number of contributors recommended rubbing alcohol to thin out oil dyes. I had my doubts as we remember oil and water don't mix. Sure enough we found bits of dye being deposited on the sides of the pallette rejecting the water. Denatured alcohol works just fine.Ethanol is pure white lightening. One advantage to using that is when you are seeing your projects turn out really disastrous you can always take a swig to ease the pain.

Best

Grampa Joe

[Red Cent]

Granpajoe, you are either a hillbilly or a southerner. I use rubbing alcohol to thin.

Since ethanol and methanol are simple solvents, the addition of methanol to ethanol does not exponentially increase the "denatured alcohol" ability to mix with the dye.

As in my granddaughters statement: Whateverrrrrrrrrrrr.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Red Cent

[TwinOaks]

As in my granddaughters statement: Whateverrrrrrrrrrrr.

No need to be rude about it. You asked the question, remember?

[Red Cent]

Whoa!!! Ambassador Oaks.

I just noticed your post. Rude? I would think that the smiley would give reason to the statement/word as being facetious. Kangaroo time.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Red Cent

[NVLeatherWorx]

If I might add my $0.02 here, it is best to use a thinner/solvent that has been specifically matched to the product to be used. Everyone knows that alcohol, regardless of what blend, will dry the leather out. And I can tell you from experience that alcohol, again regardless of blend, is not a good thinner/extender because of the amount of water content that it contains. The water does not actually mix well with the dyes/stains. I know there are several craftsmen who are always looking to save a buck or two or a more easily available product that can be picked up on a whim instead of having to drive several miles to a Tandy store or order it online (and we all know that most of us don't actually live anywhere with a Tandy (or other leathercraft supplier) store in our back yards) but when it comes to ensuring that the finished product is the finest quality and best that it can be, take the plunge and buy the proper products that are meant to work together.

After all Red Cent, you have it as part of your profile info on the side bar: "Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze." I am not calling you stupid in any way shape or form but think about the "cheap booze" part and then apply that to "cheap finishes/materials" and then ponder whether that should apply as well. I agree with you about the "arguing with stupid people" (and the drinking cheap booze part as well) and I won't do it. I have had a small handful of people stop and play 20 questions with me at events and they are doing it all to learn more about how we make things because they are doing it as a hobby and looking to start selling. When we get into the needs (items, tools, products, materials, etc.) of what is required to make it a quality item they always start to bring up the shortcuts and other "bargain" approaches and that is where I ask them, "are you planning on making a quality item or just keep making the cheap looking stuff?" and then they get quiet. Once I have their attention I then get into the economics of the whole thing and it hits them that they have no business going into business if they aren't going to do it right because our trade can be very brutal when you put out poor quality.

Now, about that Dickel. If I were in your neck of the woods I would stop by and share a bottle with you but being on the opposite side of the dirt it is quite tough. Instead, I will have one for you and you can have one for me. Sound like a plan?

[Red Cent]

I'm far from cheap. I am a member of the "he who dies with the most toys wins" club.

Now about the alcohol thing. Seems like rubbing alcohol is working fine. Picked that tidbit either here or on Cas-City. Then started to hear about denatured alcohol. Knew what it was (kinda) but had to read up on it. I am a nut on researching. Seems that it is the same stuff. Almost. But I did not care for the results of thinned dye. And I did not like to dip dye. Maybe I would like the look if I used the good stuff. Any ways, I use a piece of bath towel with a modicum of full strength dye and rub. I rub and add dye until I get a solid color without being wet.

Tennessee sour mash. Dickle is the favorite and Jack Daniels black is second. Jim Bean would be third.

And you have one of my friends close by. If you get by Mernickle Custom Holsters, say Hi to Bob and Sherrie for me.

Salud!

[JulieP]

I just did some research on this subject. One of the members posted a pic of a test he did with spirit dyes and ethanol vs isopropyl. The results were very different. The isopropyl thinned dyes were much more vibrant than the ethanol thinned dyes.

[Brooksie]

I'm looking to replace Fiebings edge dye that I have used for years. I use it for edge dying and touching up holes. They have discontinued it, so I'm having to recreate it. I need a solvent based pigment and de natured alcohol, I guess. Any suggestions?