Chicago Screws Made Out Of Wood?

[Hi Im Joe]

It's plastic with 30% pine. Not wood, certainly not hardwood, and definitely not something that can replicate the look of wood. Do your own research.

Its exactly as the OP stated. "Wood filament." You said...."There are 2 things 3D printers can print with, and they are different types of plastic. You cannot get 3d printed wood."

That looks like 3D printed wood to me even if it does have plastic in it.

[RavenAus]

70% plastic and powdered pine is not wood. If it was 30% leather would that make it leather? No. Plastic coloured like leather perhaps but not leather.

Where is the grain? Where are the knots? Ground down to powder and extruded like fiberboard (MDF). You cannot mistake this for wood.

[electrathon]

Wood printing is really more like particle board than real wood. Similar to reconstituted leather is ground up leather, glued together. I guess if that is acceptable quality it may be an option. It defiantly is not in the same quality as the exotic woods this thread mentions.

[Hi Im Joe]

70% plastic and powdered pine is not wood. If it was 30% leather would that make it leather? No. Plastic coloured like leather perhaps but not leather.

Where is the grain? Where are the knots? Ground down to powder and extruded like fiberboard (MDF). You cannot mistake this for wood.

Still it looks like wood more than plastic.

Wood printing is really more like particle board than real wood. Similar to reconstituted leather is ground up leather, glued together. I guess if that is acceptable quality it may be an option. It defiantly is not in the same quality as the exotic woods this thread mentions.

This is a good point. But instead of dismissing it out of hand like Raven...its like a compromise. Sometimes that's the best you can do.

[DavidL]

I'll have to look for an open minded woodworker. Worst case scenario I pay for 10 screws to be tested and they get shipped to me and can't hold up. I would have spent 30 bucks plus material.

Wood printing is still a option and I could also find someone with the proper programmable automated machinery to get it cut out of exotic wood.

Thanks for the replies.

[Sona]

Well, as a carpenter I actually see it the same way, raven does. That´s not wood.... not at all, even if it has some wooden ingredients. And even if it might have those ingredients it could never ever compete for the look of wood.... but that´s actually not the main point here.

David, I just get the feeling you might not realize, what you are talking about. Please don´t get me wrong: yes, there might be someone who does this sets for you... anywhere on this world, of course. And I really wish that you´ll find this person. But I still don´t get why you insist on this "male/femal" stuff, where you really don´t need it. And no, actually you are not offering 30 dollar/hour, you are offering 300 dollar for 100 caps, because you think they might be made on the fly. But if a carpenter, a woodcarver and other people who have some experience in woodworking tell you, that this is just not right, you seem to ignore or misunderstand it. I still don´t know how much you pay an american woodworker per hour, but as I said: over here you pay like 65 dollar (!) per hour. Nobody would love to do this job for that payment, even IF you were right.... There are just a lot of facts and factors you seem not to understand or see.....

As said before: I honestly hope you find your guy and I´d love to see the result. But I think you might have to admit some other prices than you expect.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Sona

[Hi Im Joe]

Well, as a carpenter I actually see it the same way, raven does. That´s not wood.... not at all, even if it has some wooden ingredients. And even if it might have those ingredients it could never ever compete for the look of wood.... but that´s actually not the main point here.

David, I just get the feeling you might not realize, what you are talking about. Please don´t get me wrong: yes, there might be someone who does this sets for you... anywhere on this world, of course. And I really wish that´ll you´ll find this person. But I still don´t get why you insist on this "male/femal" stuff, where you really don´t need it. And no, actually you are not offering 30 dollar/hour, you are offering 300 dollar for 100 caps, because you think they might be made on the fly. But if a carpenter, a woodcarver and other people who have some experience in woodworking tell you, that this is just not right, you seem to ignore or misunderstand it. I still don´t know how much you pay an american woodworker per hour, but as I said: over here you pay like 65 dollar (!) per hour. Nobody would love to do this job for that payment, even IF you were right.... There are just a lot of facts and factors you seem not to understand or see.....

As said before: I honestly hope you find your guy and I´d love to see the result. But I think you might have to admit some other prices than you expect.

I agree its not 100% wood. I get that. But it's a decent compromise. Especially for 3D printing.

[Macca]

This all seems similar to other discussions you had on leather article pricing, you are applying the same flawed cost + method to this.

You seriously need to think more of value pricing rather than mass production unit costs then applied to low volumes, it just doesn't work.

This is not volume business for anyone & will require a great deal of skill/knowledge.

Unless you have a friend who will turn these out as a favour, be prepared to pay a lot for the skill & knowledge of someone to take this on.

[DavidL]

yes, thank you sona I am aware its not real wood, however for a small item it is not a bad compromise. Surely it will be on par or above regular wooden screws made in china.

I also hope I will find the right person that will do this that will have proper power tools and hand tools already. The type of pay is called piece work. Made in Usa clothing the workers if they are paid by piece work would be 15 cents a shirt.

For the pay for woodworkers In Canada is 17 dollars and hour and can be upwards of 40 (I believe the average is 20-30). It can probably get up to 100 for specialized wood working. Certain painters in the downtown area of my city make 100 per hour painting houses. Crazy right?

[DavidL]

I have a vague idea of the skill it takes to make a cap every time. For those who are skilled at wood working is this not a beginner-intermediate task (with use of power tools?). In terms of leather working skill, making a bifold wallet nicely is the equivalent to making a wood cap?

The issue I have with having the caps made for say 4 dollars a set is that the price will have to be high and I'm unsure if the buyers are willing to spend that type of money. Upside is the screws will come out better as they will be entirely hand made and is a selling point.

A normal card wallet with metal rivets and stitching will be 35+ dollars retail.

To justify using higher quality goods the price would have to rise to 70+ since the cost would be 20 dollars for 4 screws.

If I'm able to sell at 300 dollars a wallet then the cost can be justifiable. That will be a task because my company at that point will have to be social proof and established.

[Sona]

I know what you mean David, but it is still the "you want custom - you pay custom"-thing. If your customers want a special eyecatcher, they gotta pay for it. I made a sheath (larp sword) for a guy for about 166,- dollars and he really thought about taking two buckles which were zinc diecasted and painted "like brass" rather than taking two brass-buckles just to save like what.... 9 dollars? That was the point where I just decided, to use solid brass or solid brass, nickel-plated. Since then I never mentioned the idea of this zinc-stuff anymore and I never had this problem again. And if I´d like to use solid silver stuff, I just need to finde people who wanna buy it. BUT, I can´t say "they won´t sell for this price, so I expect a solid brass buckle for 1,50, I mean, it´s just machine-made". It just doesn´t work like this. If you get some of this caps and find some customers: wonderfull. If you finde customers who´ll pay the higher price, even better. But if you want everything on lowcost, because you are afraid of loosing customers if it gets more pricey, you´ll follow the line of mass production and believe me: there are a lot of companies who have a quite better set up for that kind of buisness than you do!

And to the money-thing: I know that type of payment and I don´t like it. Maybe there are a lot people who work like that but it seems more like the time of industrialization to me than a proper kind of payment. Actually we are still human beeings and no machines.
I don´t know, whether it is crazy, ´cause we got a totally different money-system over here. And I am not sure, whether you mean that they get 17 to 100 bucks/hour, or you have to pay 17 to 100/hour, if you hire them. Over here that´s quite a difference!

[Macca]

you mention piece work, again, thats for volumes, significant volumes.

What you want made is a one off (even if you order 100), no chance anyone will take that on for piece work rates

Dont dismiss the skill required to produce something like this, its not a minimum wage skill !

You seem to be still aiming at low price, high volumes (which I think is nuts for hand made product).

If that really is your target market, why are you considering hand made wooden components ??

No-one will give a damn at that price, just use normal ones, they won't care.

[shtoink]

70% plastic and powdered pine is not wood...

...Ground down to powder and extruded like fiberboard (MDF).

I can confirm this... That is the link to the page from the company that makes this product. My first impression was "That looks a lot like MDF" as well.

DavidL, I am not, by any means, suggesting that your quest is an impossible one, merely that it has a high probability of being an ineffective one from a cost perspective. If you really need these to have a specific look, then you'll need to have control at every step of the process. The only way I know how to make that happen is to do it yourself. Whether that means, oversee someone under you doing the task or performing it with your own hands, the idea is the same.

New tooling will be how you achieve this. A new Sherline lathe isn't super cheap, but will certainly be a good investment if this is something you want to be able to do in-house to keep costs down. I personally recommend the 4000C package, as it comes with 85% of the stuff you might need if you don't plan on turning anything over 8 inches long. Add a self centering 4 jaw chuck and possibly a independent 4 jaw chuck to that list. You'll need to build up a list of steps to follow to have some repeatability, but thing like form tools that have the profile of the cap shape pre-ground can help speed the process up.

That 4000C package run just a smidge over $1100. When you factor in shipping, the extra chucks and anything else you added to that list, it'll very likely be less up-front cost than getting your first order of caps made with that added benefit of giving you 100% control at ever stage and the ability to change the shapes and materials with very little time, order-size, or cost restriction.

You asked for the opinion of others, but appeared unhappy with those opinions when they were given. The direction you head is completely up to you. I, personally, have asked opinions others in here before and even went against them. Sometimes the opinions were wrong, sometimes not. It all depends on just how strongly you feel you need to have this specific addition to your line of products. Will it be more cost effective to invest a great deal of time into having someone else make these caps and risk lost money if they turn out wrong anyway or to add an additional layer of steps your existing line? I can't answer that for you, which is why I kept saying that more research was needed. I think you would feel more secure with having control over the results and would recommend getting tooled up, but that is just my opinion.

[RavenAus]

I did suggest earlier that he try someone who turns pens, but warned they would not take the price he was after. I also suggested he actually try what he's saying is so easy.

DavidL, get a sharp knife, around 1" to 2" straight blade, get one of the pieces of wood you want and see how much effort it takes you to produce one pair of your screws. Then, when you have some real-world experience, come back and re-evaluate your position. I'm not the only woodworker who has offered their opinions but you have ignored all of us. TBH, there's no point in asking the question if you're not prepared to take on board the advice given.

You want exotic wood plugs. You're looking at reconstituted 70% plastic/30% wood (which you would still have to pay someone to 3d model for you, nobody works for free man.) You say you want the whittled look, not the perfect finish then you say you want them CNC milled (which would need programming which would not get done for free). You want them threaded, unthreaded, male, female...

I honestly think you are way beyond what your original brief was and you need to go back, cost things in a more realistic manner and see if this is ever going to be worth your time. People have suggested various ways in which you could do this and each has been dismissed. FYI, a bond with a good PVA wood glue between 2 flat surfaces is stronger than most of the woods you'd be gluing together - test it out! Get 2 pieces, flatten the ends, glue as per the instructions and try to break the join. You will break the wood first, not the join, if you've followed the instructions correctly.

[papaw]

How big is this going to be, I am a retired craftman and I can only guess how many you would have to make ( with all that would break) just to get 10 units. You have been given a lot of ideals I would try a couple and see. If not put a ad. in the paper and pay him by the hour to make them.

[courtney]

A made in USA shirt costs 15 cents? Where do you get these numbers?

[DavidL]

A made in USA shirt costs 15 cents? Where do you get these numbers?

Paid per piece to the worker, meaning the worker would get 15 cents a shirt or whatever the factory would pay him and a wage below minimum ($5 for example). That way there is an incentive for the worker to not slack off so they can get paid for their skill not by base pay. The very same way a waitress gets paid with tips and base wage of $5.

How big is this going to be, I am a retired craftman and I can only guess how many you would have to make ( with all that would break) just to get 10 units. You have been given a lot of ideals I would try a couple and see. If not put a ad. in the paper and pay him by the hour to make them.

the size of a regular sized cap, perhaps a little larger say 1.2cm diameter and 4mm tall. I won't be doing it with male or female ends just 2 caps that are flat on the bottom w/ two holes and a small dowel connecting them. So breakage should be few if not none I would imagine.

You want exotic wood plugs. You're looking at reconstituted 70% plastic/30% wood (which you would still have to pay someone to 3d model for you, nobody works for free man.) You say you want the whittled look, not the perfect finish then you say you want them CNC milled (which would need programming which would not get done for free). You want them threaded, unthreaded, male, female...

I was throwing out ideas that could be done instead of exotic wood plugs. I had the impression from most people on this thread that it couldn't be done at my price point so a cheaper alternative was through 3d printer. But I am not decided yet on what I would go through with.

you mention piece work, again, thats for volumes, significant volumes.

What you want made is a one off (even if you order 100), no chance anyone will take that on for piece work rates

Dont dismiss the skill required to produce something like this, its not a minimum wage skill !

You seem to be still aiming at low price, high volumes (which I think is nuts for hand made product).

If that really is your target market, why are you considering hand made wooden components ??

No-one will give a damn at that price, just use normal ones, they won't care.

I want to make a fair product thats not 200 to 300 dollars. So if I can get one set made for 4-5 dollars including labour,material and shipping the price won't be 120 dollars for a 3 pocket card wallet, something in the 59-79 dollar range for a 3 pocket card holder(in the middle of high end and low end). 4-5 dollars for a plug is still not high end but is sure a lot better than a 20 cent rivet. At that price it is high quality but not in the ball park of silver, gold or precious material.

This product won't be low end but somewhere in the middle of high end looks and quality with a reasonable price thats slightly higher than what they would pay for a regular wallet from the store.

I also want a product that will stand out from the rest but not command a price way over price because of personal choice,. If the plugs were made at 10-12 dollars a piece which would need 4 plugs for a wallet = 40 dollars plus leather costs and supplies and my time, it wouldn't be worth it in the end to both reach my price point and make a profit. So a lower price is what I'm looking for in the plugs by finding a easy manufacturing process to lower the cost.

I did suggest earlier that he try someone who turns pens, but warned they would not take the price he was after. I also suggested he actually try what he's saying is so easy.

I honestly think you are way beyond what your original brief was and you need to go back, cost things in a more realistic manner and see if this is ever going to be worth your time. People have suggested various ways in which you could do this and each has been dismissed. FYI, a bond with a good PVA wood glue between 2 flat surfaces is stronger than most of the woods you'd be gluing together - test it out! Get 2 pieces, flatten the ends, glue as per the instructions and try to break the join. You will break the wood first, not the join, if you've followed the instructions correctly.

I just haven't responded to some people because I didn't want to get into an argument, otherwise I had nothing to say. I took on the advice of the members so that the idea can be established further. I've went through the process which was first chicago screws, which was not recommended by members because it would take too much work to get those done. So i resorted to male/female ends (one end is a solid rectangle and the other a rectangle hole). Then tree reaper sent in a response which I thought could work which was the two ends with a dowel through the middle which is the least labour intensive.

gluing the two wooden pieces together would be the best way but to get them glue together and act like a wooden cap plug to secure two leather pieces together like a jiffy rivet I don't see how that will work without one plug having a secondary cylinder cut out so it can fit in the smaller hole of the leather.

I don't think I will go out and try this because I don't have the a whittling knife, a bandsaw and bass wood to try to get the original idea of a cap w/ female and male ends. It may take 2 months before I'm able to get the skill to make a cap and cost of material. A skilled worker would be able to make one plug in 30 minutes or less(taking time to plan it out) the way tree reaper responded. Each would take 2 -3 minutes, however I can not be certain until it is tested by the worker.

Through all of the post I came up with the decision of the plug below. The process will be a 1 cm diameter square cut out of a larger material thats a few feet long. It will be rounded so it is shaped like a cylinder. Then the worker will run the top on a belt sander to establish the rounded shape and wittle the top of the cylinder till it resembles a cap w/ natural markings and finally measure and cut off below the cap to get a flat bottom. Holes will be drilled on the bottom so a dowel can be inserted.

Edited May 6, 2014 by DavidL

[Tree Reaper]

It took about twenty minutes for me to make that wooden rivet and the jig used to hold the caps to enable drilling.

You can glue the dowel in the fixed hole, put the dowel through the leather and all the way through the other plug or cap with glue and then clamp it tight.

When the glue dries you trim off the excess dowel and sand flush.

Just put the plug with the sanded dowel on the bottom side.

This will be much stronger than anything threaded.

If you want the wooden caps to sit lower in the leather then punch the right size hole for the dowel and then counter bore for the plug itself.

[DavidL]

It took about twenty minutes for me to make that wooden rivet and the jig used to hold the caps to enable drilling.

You can glue the dowel in the fixed hole, put the dowel through the leather and all the way through the other plug or cap with glue and then clamp it tight.

When the glue dries you trim off the excess dowel and sand flush.

Just put the plug with the sanded dowel on the bottom side.

This will be much stronger than anything threaded.

If you want the wooden caps to sit lower in the leather then punch the right size hole for the dowel and then counter bore for the plug itself.

Do you mind taking a picture of the jig so I can use it for a reference to show the woodworker. These dowels are what size and available at hardware stores?

The last sentence does that mean to drill a hole for the cap without a dowel?

I also appreciate that you took time to make the jig. Thank you.

[Tree Reaper]

The last sentence was for a counter bore, this is a larger hole on top of the smaller dowel hole so the cap can sink down into the leather, you can make it fit flush to the leather surface if you want.

I'll try and do that tomorrow and post it to show you what I mean.(I'm watching the hockey game)

The jig is just a scrap piece of wood, the plugs I had on hand are 1/4"dia.

I drilled a 1/4" hole in the scrap wood and then cut across it with a band saw.

To drill the plug, put it in the hole and place a clamp on the outside of the scrap jig.

This squeezes the plug in the hole and locks it for drilling.

The dowel is 1/8" stock from a local hardware store.

You can get a cheap plug cutter and cut your own plugs from any rough stock or use commercial plugs and rough them up with a sander on a dremel.

These are cheap and strong and should serve your purpose.

[Tree Reaper]

This is the difference between the two depth settings.

They both have the 1/8 dowel hole but the one on the right is counter bored with a forstner bit in order to sink it deeper into the leather.

These are plugs but you can also buy caps which are a lower profile.

[Tree Reaper]

One other option providing the leather is thick enough is to use the counter bore method and a standard rivet then glue your wood cap to the metal rivet cap with JB Weld.

[Tree Reaper]

Another option is to drill out the base of the wood cap and glue it to a standard chicago screw.

[DavidL]

What tool should I look out for to drill out the base?

[Tree Reaper]

I would buy a forstner bit the size that matches your chicago screw head.

Depending on the thickness of your cap you might have to grind the pilot down on the bit so it doesn't come through the cap.

If you had to do that I would use one good bit to start the bore and then use the ground off pilot on a second bit to finish it to the proper depth.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Tree Reaper