Insurance

[rccolt45]

For those of you selling your holster on line do you carry any type of insurance? If not are you concerned that a customer may sue ? What do you do to limit your liability?

[Steven Kelley]

Yes, I have insurance. Purchased it through State Farm, where I have my auto and homeowner's. I believe it's either $1 million or $2 million liability and it's fairly inexpensive.

[SteelcityK9Cop]

Steven....

I'm scheduled to meet with my State Farm agent in a week to talk about product liability insurance. I have my auto and homeowners through them as well. I asked a rough estimate regarding cost and they couldn't give me one. What's your approximate cost per year with them?

[Steven Kelley]

Steven....

I'm scheduled to meet with my State Farm agent in a week to talk about product liability insurance. I have my auto and homeowners through them as well. I asked a rough estimate regarding cost and they couldn't give me one. What's your approximate cost per year with them?

If I remember correctly it's about $300 a year.

[LeatherWerks]

Let's assume for a minute you build a holster for person X. This person loves the holster, but for some reason some Sunday morning the gun falls out of the holster, hits the ground, discharges, and kills an innocent by-stander. A civil suite is brought against the person carrying the gun in YOUR holster.

The person and their attorney suggests that the holster YOU built is somehow defective, not the correct amount of retention, or some obscure factor none of us could never see as a problem, except for lawyers...they see ALL the possibilities.

You have a 1 million dollar policy to cover these matters, but your net worth (your cars, your home, your 401Ks) is much more than the face value of the policy. Will the lawyers cut you some slack and just sue for the value of the insurance policy.....probably not. In court they will sue for an amount higher than the total value of all your assets in hope the jury will award most of your assets to the plaintiffs.

How do you protect yourself? You can't operate as person A (dba) "doing business as" X leather Company. To truly protect yourself, at minimum, you have to set your company up as an LLC, a Limited Liability Company.

As a LLC company, you can still be sued, but only for the assets directly owned by the Limited Liability Company. There are many rules as to how your business assets are titled, and how you conduct business in general. Your attorney can explain this.

I use to make gun holsters....I don't anymore except for myself. I now make mostly dog collars. Can you imagine how much someone would sue me for if their prized dog broke it's collar and bolted into a busy intersection just because he or she saw a squirrel? Could I ever expect that dog to be strong enough to break my prized dog collar?

We live in a sue happy society but there are ways to protect yourself. Contact an attorney, setup the best business model for your particular situation, .....you'll sleep better and if you do get sued, you'll probably not be doing leather work in a box under your local

highway overpass.

Steve

This is not legal advice but information I've learned over the years. Don't let lawyers take all your assets if something goes wrong.

Edited May 8, 2014 by LeatherWerks

[BDAZ]

LW, really good food for thought! Actually about all products. A strap that breaks and drops a $10,000 guitar on the concrete? Lots of lawyer chum. I'll be talking to my agent and accountant tomorrow.

Cya!

Bob

[JLSleather]

How 'bout just a bit of common sense thrown in the mix before we all git 'gun shy'. An accidental shooting by someone with your holster? You are no more responsible than the car dealer is if you're in an accidental collision.

Someone may well attempt to make you look responsible, and thus liable. Standard issue - especially if they know they are wrong, in which case the strategy is to baffle and muddy the water. But, you have to have done something BEYOND make a holster to be liable. Car manufacturers selling cars with exploding gas tanks - liable. Same car man selling perfectly sound cars to drunks and reprobates - not part of the same picture.

[LeatherWerks]

I disagree to some extent. We're talking about product liability issues and over zealous lawyers that will attempt to show a jury that your holster is somehow defective. That you don't have a quality control department, you don't have an engineering division and so on. You will find lawyers that will go that route, especially after they find out you have enough money to make it worthwhile.

You could hire a good expert witness to refute the lawyers claim. One that comes to mind is John Bianchi. If anyone knows gun leather, it's John Bianchi. You could fly him in, set him up in a nice hotel, pay him 500.00 an hour and he might convince a jury that the prosecutor is incorrect.

The whole point I was making with my post is that for very little money, you could set up your company as an LLC. If the tragic event we've been discussing ever occurred, and the lawyer saw that the LLC owned an edger, a couple of round knives and a Tippmann Boss, then it would probably never get to court in the first place.

Steve

[St8LineGunsmith]

LOL Lawyers will see I dont have enough money to make it worth while and will leave me alone

[BDAZ]

If the tragic event we've been discussing ever occurred, and the lawyer saw that the LLC owned an edger, a couple of round knives and a Tippmann Boss, then it would probably never get to court in the first place.

The first thing a lawyer will try to do is "pierce the corporate veil" which means they will look for any irregularities that will dssallow corporate protection. Didn't hold a directors meeting in 2007? Didn't file a particular document with the stated 5 years ago?

The protection of a corporation is over rated. Your best protection is to shield your assets so you have nothing to go after.

Not a lawyer so take this as worth what it cost.

Cya!
Bob

[chiefjason]

Anybody know of a successful lawsuit against a holster maker? I know of one. There may be others.

And from what I remember of reading about it, it was a rather bizarre turn of events that led to them being sued. IIRC, it include a LE agency asking for something the maker was not comfortable doing, refused the alternative design, talked the maker into the original design, design happened to fail in a gun fight and an officer got shot.

[SteelcityK9Cop]

Define successful lawsuit.... a $50,000 settlement for a round cranked into their leg because they couldn't keep their boogerhook off the trigger when holstering sounds like sucessfull to me. I just don't want it to be MY $50K. $300 a year sounds like a great investment.

And you don't know what the circumstance could be... "the holster deformed with use" "they should have told me not to put a loaded firearm in there" "no one told me..blah blah blah" I bet no one ever thought you would get big bucks for hot coffee at McDonalds either.

[Hi Im Joe]

How 'bout just a bit of common sense thrown in the mix before we all git 'gun shy'. An accidental shooting by someone with your holster? You are no more responsible than the car dealer is if you're in an accidental collision.

Someone may well attempt to make you look responsible, and thus liable. Standard issue - especially if they know they are wrong, in which case the strategy is to baffle and muddy the water. But, you have to have done something BEYOND make a holster to be liable. Car manufacturers selling cars with exploding gas tanks - liable. Same car man selling perfectly sound cars to drunks and reprobates - not part of the same picture.

Unfortunately, you are as liable as a court is willing to hold you. Common sense does not apply to the law.

[St8LineGunsmith]

so in other words disclaimers of liability are not worth the paper they are printed on?

maker cannot be held liable for general stupidity of the user can they?

[Hi Im Joe]

so in other words disclaimers of liability are not worth the paper they are printed on?

maker cannot be held liable for general stupidity of the user can they?

The unfortunate answer is it depends. For example, if you go bungee jumping and sign a wavier saying if you die blah blah blah....but the guy forgets to clip you to the bungee...that waiver is totally worthless.

The more complicated question becomes is can negligence on the part of maker be proven in court. It's pretty hard to prove negligence but strange things have happened with juries so many times I wouldn't want to bet my livelihood on it.

[camano ridge]

Once it gets to court, you may not be held liable. However anyone can sue anybody for anything. City's and buisnessess (even small buisnesses) settle what are called frivilous law suits out of court all the time. Even if the suit has no merit by the time you compute hours going to an attorney, hours going to court cost of the attorney etc it adds up pretty quick. Just the attorney fees even if you don't go to court can cost you several thousand dollars. Many times a particular city I know of (and this is true of most city's) have paid $5,000. - $10,000.00 to some one who say, twisted there ankle (supposedely) stepping off a curve then files suit for $200,000.00 with no intention of getting that much but know they will get a a few thousand with out even having to work for it. Can you be held liable for some one elses stupidity there are many cases that prove you can. As mentioned earlier. Look at the lady that bought a hot cup of coffee from McDonalds dumped it in her own lap then sued McDonalds.

Edited May 13, 2014 by camano ridge

[chiefjason]

Define successful lawsuit....

My point is, there is a lot of conjecture that folks can point to this case and that case to prove. But are there a lot of lawsuits against holster makers? That would not be conjecture, it would be a number. I know there have been a few, but not sure how many. I don't plan on looking deeply into the McD's case but my understanding is that it's not as simple as a cup of hot coffee, like everything it's a bit more complicated than one hot cup of joe one time.

And on waivers, they are pretty much worth the paper they are printed on. I put some info with my holsters. But at the end of the day it's just a piece of paper. Anybody can sue any time.

[camano ridge]

I don't have any hard numbers, however a quick google for "holster maker sued" brought up several results. Man sues holster makers after shooting himself at courthouse

CHICAGO (STNG) - A man filed a lawsuit against a handgun holster company Wednesday, claiming a defective holster caused him to shoot himself at the Markham Courthouse in 2007.

John Bruno, a Lockport resident, was at the courthouse, 16501 S. Kedzie Pkwy., on Sept. 21, 2007 when he intended to re-holster his weapon, according to a suit filed in Cook County Circuit Court.

As he attempted to put the gun back into the holster, the weapon unexpectedly discharged, the suit said.

Bruno is suing Bushnell Outdoor Products, Michael’s of Oregon, Co., Uncle Mike’s and Kale Uniforms, Inc.—the companies that manufacture and sell the Kydex Belt Holster for Glock Model handguns—claiming the product was defective and caused him to shoot himself.

The suit claims the holster’s retention strap moved out of position when a weapon is being re-holstered, which causes the gun to discharge and, in Bruno’s case, caused him “severe” and “permanent” injuries.

It was unclear why Bruno had a weapon at the courthouse, and his lawyer could not immediately be reached for comment Wednesday evening.

http://www.wbbm780.com/Man-sues-holster-makers-after-shooting-himself-at-/5239054

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1994-07-20/news/9407200320_1_holster-fatally-shot

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/gun-258109-angeles-shot.html

I am not saying the sky is falling and all holster makers should be shivering in their boots. But it does happen and there are probably more not publicised that have been settled out of court by insurance companies etc. Even if the person filing a lawsuit looses it can still cost the defendant thousand in attorney fees.

Edited May 13, 2014 by camano ridge

[St8LineGunsmith]

My first question to the plantiff would have been why were you carrying a fire arm into the court house in the first place?

and my second would have been why are you carrying a firearm with a chambered cartridge and not on safe?

dont sound like faulty manufacturing to me, sounds more like a case of the gun handler not having safe gun handling skills to me.

JM.02

[JLSleather]

My first question to the plantiff would have been why were you carrying a fire arm into the court house in the first place?

and my second would have been why are you carrying a firearm with a chambered cartridge and not on safe?

dont sound like faulty manufacturing to me, sounds more like a case of the gun handler not having safe gun handling skills to me.

JM.02

This was my point. You CAN get 'sued' at any time, for any number of reasons (or no apparent reason at all). I'm simply pointing out that someone filing a piece of paper isn't - by itself - a major ordeal. If they want to spend their money on court filings and photocopying, have at it. But INSIDE the courtroom, you'll need to show that my actions caused your injury.

Keep in mind, not something to ignore either. While you're searching this stuff, you might try to find the percentage of judgments entered by default. In other words, how many suits "succeeded" simply because the person sued didn't take it seriously and respond?

[Steven Kelley]

I'm not sure how many of these lawsuits would end up in a jury trial, but I would be very skeptical of anything remotely based on "common sense" coming from one. I was fortunate enough to serve on a grand jury (2 days a week for 4 months) a couple of years ago. It was an eye opening experience to say the least. I know a grand jury and a civil law suit are two completely different things, but just seeing how some of my fellow jurors reacted to any case involving a gun, and their lack of knowledge of guns, gun safety, common sense gun handling, or just common sense in general, I would not want to be a participant in a trial where I could be found negligent because of someone else's bad judgement and or stupidity. You never know how people that could be on a jury will react to a case involving a gun or gun related product. Especially if they hear a sob story presented by a money hungry lawyer. Now I could hire a really good (and really expensive) lawyer to represent me, and hopefully keep me from being found liable, but that might come at a very high price. I don't sell enough holsters or make enough money to cover that type of expense.

The LLC route mentioned earlier is not a bad idea. I have been thinking pretty seriously about converting my business to a LLC. Will that protect me 100%? Probably not, but it is one more layer of protection that might be nice to have. I have liabiility insurance, which is another layer of protection. Liability insurance AND being an LLC might be a good way to go. Not 100% bullet proof, so to speak, but moreso than nothing at all. Setting up an LLC looks fairly simple and not that expensive. It shouldn't really change your taxation much, if at all. Looking at LegalZoom.com, setting on up in AZ, including the state fees, would be under $300, which doesn't seem too bad. LegalZoom charges $99 for their work, which also seems reasonable. I could spend 3 - 4 hours studying what papers to file, downloading forms, filling out forms, mailing in forms, etc, or I could make 2 - 3 holsters in that time and pay for the entire process. Seems like a no brainer to me.

As a side note, I have a friend with rental houses. He had a tenant 3 years ago that fell behind on rent. The tenant was never sent an eviction notice. The tenant decided to move out and left the place a wreck. My friend did not return his deposit. The tenant was a legal student and decided to sue my friend for the $200 deposit. My friend fought the lawsuit. The case has gone round and round in the AZ legal system. My friend has a lawyer representing him. He has spent over $15,000 on legal fees to date, and the case is not close to being over yet. All over a $200 deposit. It's crazy. He's fighting the guy just on principle now. He doesn't even care how much it costs. He has lots of money though. I don't. I couldn't afford something like that. His fight is over a $200 depost. Can you imagine what a case about a firearm and firearm related item could turn into? I would hate to think about it. Guns make some people crazy. I would hate to be on the wrong end of a lawsuit where some crazies get to decide my fate, or liability. Get all the protection you can afford. Hopefully you won't need it, but if you do, you'll be glad you have it.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Steven Kelley

[BDAZ]

I've used Legal Zoom to set up an AZ LLC. Piece of cake! However, be absolutely sure you follow the annual requirements to the letter or you give the lawyers a crack to crawl into cockroach style.

Cya!

Bob

[Red Cent]

"why are you carrying a firearm with a chambered cartridge and not on safe?"

98% of us (me included) carry with a round chambered. I carry a Colt Commander "cocked and locked" and have done so for forty years. C&L means hammer cocked, safety on and a round is in the chamber.

I have a Glock so I am not knocking them when I say I bet it was a Glock. You pull the trigger they go bang. Get your finger in the way they go bang. Snag the trigger on something and they go bang. The Glock has three different safeties but none keeps you from pulling the trigger.Kinda like any double action revolver would act.

I have made the call and I am waiting for pricing on the liability insurance. And I will look at incorporating. Or LLC.

[St8LineGunsmith]

red cent

I must be in that 2% that don't carry cocked and locked. I have always thought it to be very unsafe practice

I mean if the time comes when I need it in a situation racking a round in the chamber would be less than one one hundredth of a second.

thats just my thoughts

[chiefjason]

I have a Glock so I am not knocking them when I say I bet it was a Glock. Y

Since it was a Glock holster, I would say you are correct. And look at the names. I'm surprised they did not name Glock in there. 3 out of 4 names in the suit I recognize.

In the end, do the best work you can. But stupid people will avoid responsibility by any means possible.

Draw fast, shoot straight, holster slow.

red cent

I must be in that 2% that don't carry cocked and locked. I have always thought it to be very unsafe practice

I mean if the time comes when I need it in a situation racking a round in the chamber would be less than one one hundredth of a second.

thats just my thoughts

Try it one handed while fighting someone off of you. That's what I suggest to most folks that carry unchambered. Most SD shootings are close and fast. There not much of a chance you will actually need a gun in SD. But if you do, my guess is there is a good chance at least one hand is occupied when you need it. But to each their own. Just food for thought.