Saddle Tree Question

[BOB BRENNER]

Here is a question that may open a big can of worms. This question has been on my mind for many many years like a itch I can’t scratch. While at the Sheridan leather show this year, I was ask if I used wood trees covered with fiberglass and resin, to which I said I had switched to them several years ago. With that answer I was told you can’t use them because they will not flex like a rawhide covered tree, especially when roping. I have heard that statement made by other saddle makers for years and I have not understood the explanations. So, the question is: Will a rawhide covered tree flex and if so, why???

Bob

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Bob, Like you, I have also wondered about that. I also use rawhide covered trees, however, I have built a couple that were fiberglass reinforced under the rawhide to add strength to the bars which were made especially thin, on Buster Welch style cutting trees. Never had any problems with the saddles or horses, and that has been twelve or so years ago and they are still out there being used heavily. One was actually made 15 years ago, and is still being used on the horse it was made for, with no adverse issues to the horse.

Bob

[Troy Burch]

I come from a long line of team ropers and ranch hands. We and pretty much everyone I know prefer double rawhide trees. They'll hold up to heavy use such as pulling and yanking steers around, or the occasional big bull that has to be put in a trailer in the middle of a pasture. There's nothing wrong with the others if your riding cutting horses or not putting the saddle under extreme stress. Nothing worse than a mad bull on the end of a rope and a busted tree. The rawhide will hold the saddle together if the tree breaks long enough to get out of the situation. Doesn't happen much but once will make you a believer. Troy

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Bob, There you have an answer that makes sense. Just another example that lends credence to the adage, "made the old fashioned way".

Bob

[BOB BRENNER]

Thanks for the replies. Let me rephrase the question. I have been told that a tree needs to have flex or “give” in it when roping or you can cause problems with the horse. Cowboy, ropers and saddle makers have said to me that the flex or “give” is needed disperse the force of roping on the withers of the horse.

My question is: How do we know a rawhide covered tree flexes and a fiberglass covered tree does not?

Troy, Understand. Many moons ago I threw a loop on a big bull, heard a pop and saw my swell bouncing behind the bull.

Bob

[Troy Burch]

Bob, I don't know enough about saddle building to have an inteligent conversation about it, but it seems to me fiberglass is much more brittle than rawhide judgeing by how boats, lawnmowers and such bust when bumped into. I allways thought the treebars put the pressure on the withers and kidneys of a horse not the covering. The wooden tree is not going to give and the covering is simply to strengthen the tree.

[rdl123]

I would think that the issue would be one of fatigue resistance - I would be surprised if a fiberglassed tree or a rawhided tree does not flex to some small degree when you have a bull hit the end of your rope. The issue would then become which material handles repeated stress better. When an item is repeatedly loaded with force/stress and then unloaded does it develop stress fractures?

I know when I used to build wood longbows that fiberglass or rawhide was often used on the leading edge of the bow to prevent the wood from splintering when the bow was drawn - So both materials offer high tension type stress resistance. Time and heavy use would be the ultimate judge.

Just my 2 cents.

R

[oltoot]

You should visit a tree maker sometime. The wooden pieces are not joined rigidly. The 'frame' gets it's structural integrity from the smooth fitting of joints and the generations of trial and error that have gone into development of designs. (Horns are attached rigidly to swells). Then the rawhide cover holds everything together with great strength and some rigidity allowing just a bit of flex and rebound and thus withstanding forces greater than possible with unyielding resistance. It works better as that cover is better assembled and not comprimised in the process of saddle making. Now then to 'fiberglass'. Not all synthetic coverings are created equal nor are they applied all in the same manner. So one cannot compare rawhide covered with all synthetics collectively. For valid comparison, One specific treemaker's product must be compared to another's. For me, I have a traditional treemaker that I trust (Quality Mfg) and I can't get very interested in shaving $50 off the price of a $3,000+ item so I don't spend the time and money it would require to do those valid comparisons and just stick with the tried and true. JMHO

[rktaylor]

As an engineer, I find this discussion extremely interesting. I would bet a large steak dinner that the tree will flex regardless of the covering. The real question is how much and is it enough (assuming it needs to flex). As Ron pointed out, fatigue failure is a function of cycles. If it goes through too many stress cycles, you could see your swells bouncing through the pasture attached to a smaller bull. I have spent most of my career conducting research and testing equipment or components. I guarantee we could answer the question of how much a tree flexes, but I wonder if it is one that is worth answering. I would like to tour a tree manufacturer though. I think that would be very interesting.

Randy

[Northmount]

As an engineer, I find this discussion extremely interesting. I would bet a large steak dinner that the tree will flex regardless of the covering. The real question is how much and is it enough (assuming it needs to flex). As Ron pointed out, fatigue failure is a function of cycles. If it goes through too many stress cycles, you could see your swells bouncing through the pasture attached to a smaller bull. I have spent most of my career conducting research and testing equipment or components. I guarantee we could answer the question of how much a tree flexes, but I wonder if it is one that is worth answering. I would like to tour a tree manufacturer though. I think that would be very interesting.

Randy

Take a look at http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/building-a-saddle-tree/ to see how a tree is built. Rod and Denise are members here.

Tom