CowboyBob Report post Posted July 7, 2014 We also sell Adlers & have had some of them not sew out of the box.So we learned along time ago to test any machine Adler,Consew,Juki,Paff & Cowboy before they go out so we know for sure it was sewing properly when it left. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 7, 2014 (edited) Sewing machine timing: To uncover the mystery of timing the sewing machine. part1 part 2 Edited July 7, 2014 by korokan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 7, 2014 Thanks a lot everybody. You guys are absolutely wonderful and helpful. I will have much to consider the adjustment needed and work being done by the professionals to make the machine works. i am lucky to be in these forum. Buying from China is too risky unless you understand what you are doing. Better off buying locally and a maintainance follow up when needed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CowboyBob Report post Posted July 7, 2014 Good video BUT, 441's use the same principal but adjust differently. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted July 7, 2014 Sewing machine timing: To uncover the mystery of timing the sewing machine. part1 part 2 Totally different machine with totally different hook. The one in the video seems to be a darning machine and is not even close to a 441 type machine. It has not feed dog mechanism. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 7, 2014 It is not a 441 video, sorry about that. I presume all sewing machine works on the same principle. but different in some ways. This video should help other people understand what is the timing of a sewing machine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted July 7, 2014 hard to explain if you know "not very much" about sewing machines. Timing is not only finding the point where the hook meets the needle. There at at least 3 different type of hooks (CB hook, rotary hook, barrel shuttle hook) one should know of. And there are several different feed mechanisms, top feed only, drop feed, needle feed, compound feed (triple feed / walking foot), combined top + bottom feed, puller feed and maybe a few more combinations. Timing of a walking foot (compound feed) machine is probably the most difficult (as on the 441) as you have 2 foot (one goes only up + down and the other goes up + down AND back + forth) , one needle bar (goes up + down AND back + forth) , one feed dog (has to be exactly timed with the needle bar) and a barrel shuttle hook which you have to time with the needle bar and all these have work properly together. So the two videos you have posted are not even close as the shown machine has just a needle that hoes up and down, no feed mechanism (you feed it manually since you have to move your material by hand) and not the 2 foot... and so forth. No offense - but sewing machines are NOT one like the other, there are many many differences and I probably have just scratched the surface. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 7, 2014 hard to explain if you know "not very much" about sewing machines. Timing is not only finding the point where the hook meets the needle. There at at least 3 different type of hooks (CB hook, rotary hook, barrel shuttle hook) one should know of. And there are several different feed mechanisms, top feed only, drop feed, needle feed, compound feed (triple feed / walking foot), combined top + bottom feed, puller feed and maybe a few more combinations. Timing of a walking foot (compound feed) machine is probably the most difficult (as on the 441) as you have 2 foot (one goes only up + down and the other goes up + down AND back + forth) , one needle bar (goes up + down AND back + forth) , one feed dog (has to be exactly timed with the needle bar) and a barrel shuttle hook which you have to time with the needle bar and all these have work properly together. So the two videos you have posted are not even close as the shown machine has just a needle that hoes up and down, no feed mechanism (you feed it manually since you have to move your material by hand) and not the 2 foot... and so forth. No offense - but sewing machines are NOT one like the other, there are many many differences and I probably have just scratched the surface. No offense man. This is the reason we have a forum so you can clear isiues and claify doubts. You can also show off to people your expertise of the sewing machine or what ever you can make your self proud of. We would love to her what you know. This sewing mexhanicle principle is old and probably older than my granpa that i feel people should have an idea how it works. So we know what some of the dealer been thru to sell a working sewing machine for us. I look at my pfaff walking foot and I could see the simillarities . I little imagination can help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) Hi Constabulary, I knew zero about sewing machine timing. It does sound you you very well know about this 441 timing.Can you make a video for us to how to check the timing ot fix it. It would be great.Thanks. Edited July 8, 2014 by korokan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wizcrafts Report post Posted July 8, 2014 I've enjoyed all of this topic I can stand. I am out of this thread. See ya. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted July 8, 2014 Come on Wiz, it's only page 3! Hey korokan, I trust that you're taking all the advice with the spirit it's being given. Believe me, none of the guys here have any kind of a motive other than to help and educate you about making a mistake you may regret. This entire site(not just this forum), is geared to people helping others enjoy our leatherwork. Some here have been making a living at it for a long time. A US based dealer provides a service. Providing services costs money. I have purchased hundreds of machines made all over the world, including the US. Even the machines made in the US had issues that had to be fixed after the production. Every time I priced a machine, I got two quotes. 1) Just the machine and all it's stuff delivered to my door. 2)Machine set up, sewn off on my material and thread, all add-on mounted and tested, delivered to my door. I could then weigh the cost of my time to do it, or my dealer. Often I'd just have them send it (or multiples) direct to me. But there have been plenty of times I didn't have time to do the set-ups and I gladly pay for it, knowing that I'm paying for a service. You are certainly free to choose. We all have different personalities here in the machine forum. I enjoy them all, and have learned a great deal, just by interacting. Now, if I apply my own logic, if I was spending my personal money on a machine to do leather work, I would pay their price to have it sewn off the way I want. Those that know my background may be surprised by that, but I honestly would. Please enjoy your new machine and have fun! Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted July 8, 2014 Hi Constabulary, I knew zero about sewing machine timing. It does sound you you very well know about this 441 timing.Can you make a video for us to how to check the timing ot fix it. It would be great.Thanks. I´m sorry but no - I don´t have a 441 but a different walking foot machine. The 441 is not the only machine with a waling foot there are dozens of different machines out there. Follow this this part forum for a few month or so and you will learn a lot and you will learn that a video of ONE certain machine is not the holy grale that solves all problems on all machines even if they all have a walking foot. Maybe a used machine is an option for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 8, 2014 I needed right now a heavy duty sewing machine to fix belt. I will have to buy locally in US. There are just too many issues regarding imports from China . There could be hidden charges which I dont know. And then there is that adjustment problem that I will surely encounter. Though I have an option to contact and inspector in China to check the machine and test it before packaging. I told the supplier to adjust the machine before delivery and I will send an inspector to make sure it is done.At this point I feel that i am the only person who would think of doing it. I dont understand the rules regarding importing sewing machine from China which is one of my big concern. Besides having to worry about the technicalities of the machine, I will have to worry about the import rules. I will have to take my time and try to digest all your inputs. I am glad , you guys are pro and I am getting a free advice. Much Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 8, 2014 Come on Wiz, it's only page 3! Hey korokan, I trust that you're taking all the advice with the spirit it's being given. Believe me, none of the guys here have any kind of a motive other than to help and educate you about making a mistake you may regret. This entire site(not just this forum), is geared to people helping others enjoy our leatherwork. Some here have been making a living at it for a long time. A US based dealer provides a service. Providing services costs money. I have purchased hundreds of machines made all over the world, including the US. Even the machines made in the US had issues that had to be fixed after the production. Every time I priced a machine, I got two quotes. 1) Just the machine and all it's stuff delivered to my door. 2)Machine set up, sewn off on my material and thread, all add-on mounted and tested, delivered to my door. I could then weigh the cost of my time to do it, or my dealer. Often I'd just have them send it (or multiples) direct to me. But there have been plenty of times I didn't have time to do the set-ups and I gladly pay for it, knowing that I'm paying for a service. You are certainly free to choose. We all have different personalities here in the machine forum. I enjoy them all, and have learned a great deal, just by interacting. Now, if I apply my own logic, if I was spending my personal money on a machine to do leather work, I would pay their price to have it sewn off the way I want. Those that know my background may be surprised by that, but I honestly would. Please enjoy your new machine and have fun! Regards, Eric Hi Eric, Any chance you ordered direct from China? Are there any custom restrictions on sewing machine or any other VAT or what ever I need to look into when making imports from other countries? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 8, 2014 I'm almost certain that shipping will be from $7-900 on top of this price you will be very close to getting one here that is tested & ready to go.Also does this include a servo motor & speed reducer? They will send the head and table , no motor. The clones for 441 is about $1050 and the clones for 205 is $1750. Shipping by boat is somewhere around $50- $60 and will take 26 days. I will have the option to pick up from the port in NY if it arrives or have it delivered from port for $280 . Additional options are pneumatic lifts. 2 of them for $160 a little bit more for the 205 Adler clone. They accept payment by EScrow account. I hav ethe option to have an inspector check the machine for $100 base price for checking the machine with video as additional option. The trader will also send me video of the checking and setting in the factory since I requested them to adjust the setting to sew harness and belts. She state that once I receive the item , it will sew leather harness out of the box. No speed reducer and I should ask ask her about it. They will change the foot to a harness foot, Did not ask how much it cost. Just receive the mail from them. The after market sell which is very important. They do have it, but I cant imagine how it is gonna help me. That too will have to clarify more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 8, 2014 http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb3200.html If the 3200 will do the job, (up to 1/2 inch of leather) the the cost is $1595 out of the box and ready to sew. Besides shipping there will be all kinds of add on fees for customs clearance, port fees, etc. You could be looking at a few hundred dollars additional. Assuming you already have a customs broker.. You would be NUTs to buy this machine from China..IMHO when you could buy a similar warranted, well supported machine for possibly less than the direct import. Cya! Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Constabulary Report post Posted July 8, 2014 The Math: Machine $1050 Inspection $100 shipping $60 (sounds cheap) Domestic Shipping $280 + unknown import taxes + vat + motor $125 - $150 + Speed reducer $125 -$150 (which you may need) That is (assumed) $1740 including questionable support and warranty from China and you don´t know if you will really get a fully set up and full functional machine. They can tell you what ever they want - they sit on the other end of the world so do you really think they care about 1 single machine? I don´t think they take it back for free if it does not work. A fully setup machine from Toledo is $2300 so you safe about $560 and you have to wait 26 days + unpacking the container + sorting the merchandise + custom check + waiting for the freight forwarder + a few days until you have it at your door just in case you don´t have to pay taxes + vat. What if you have to pay taxes + vat and have to deal with the customs and what if the machine is broke or not setup? How far is China away from you? You said you know nothing about sewing machines, right? So do you really think it is a good idea to buy your 1st machine on the other end of the world? Go ahead and buy it - maybe we all can learn something. I would not buy it! You should probably think about buying a used machine or a CB3200 which is just $1600 http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb3200.html I´m outta here now - good luck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 8, 2014 The Math: Machine $1050 Inspection $100 shipping $60 (sounds cheap) Domestic Shipping $280 + unknown import taxes + vat + motor $125 - $150 + Speed reducer $125 -$150 (which you may need) That is (assumed) $1740 including questionable support and warranty from China and you don´t know if you will really get a fully set up and full functional machine. They can tell you what ever they want - they sit on the other end of the world so do you really think they care about 1 single machine? I don´t think they take it back for free if it does not work. A fully setup machine from Toledo is $2300 so you safe about $560 and you have to wait 26 days + unpacking the container + sorting the merchandise + custom check + waiting for the freight forwarder + a few days until you have it at your door just in case you don´t have to pay taxes + vat. What if you have to pay taxes + vat and have to deal with the customs and what if the machine is broke or not setup? How far is China away from you? You said you know nothing about sewing machines, right? So do you really think it is a good idea to buy your 1st machine on the other end of the world? Go ahead and buy it - maybe we all can learn something. I would not buy it! You should probably think about buying a used machine or a CB3200 which is just $1600 http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb3200.html I´m outta here now - good luck! The Math: Machine $1050 Inspection $100 shipping $60 (sounds cheap) Domestic Shipping $280 + unknown import taxes + vat + motor $125 - $150 + Speed reducer $125 -$150 (which you may need) That is (assumed) $1740 including questionable support and warranty from China and you don´t know if you will really get a fully set up and full functional machine. They can tell you what ever they want - they sit on the other end of the world so do you really think they care about 1 single machine? I don´t think they take it back for free if it does not work. A fully setup machine from Toledo is $2300 so you safe about $560 and you have to wait 26 days + unpacking the container + sorting the merchandise + custom check + waiting for the freight forwarder + a few days until you have it at your door just in case you don´t have to pay taxes + vat. What if you have to pay taxes + vat and have to deal with the customs and what if the machine is broke or not setup? How far is China away from you? You said you know nothing about sewing machines, right? So do you really think it is a good idea to buy your 1st machine on the other end of the world? Go ahead and buy it - maybe we all can learn something. I would not buy it! You should probably think about buying a used machine or a CB3200 which is just $1600 http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb3200.html I´m outta here now - good luck! Thanks for helping me the math: Just check on the Imports to US : Sewing machine is duty free. So Calculating all in all of possible expense: 441 clone $1050 =head and table only Inspector= could be $150 Delivery by boat= $60 Local delivery= $ 280 Speed Reducer= Already have one Motor =$150 total=$ 1630 total for a 441 16 1/2 inch, 20mm foot lift compare to US Equivalent value= 441 Chinese clone =$ 2295- 2400 + delivery $300= $ 2595- 2900 $ 2595- $1600= $ 995 less. or the money I paid for less head ache and risk. I am basically paying $ 995 .00 to feel comfortable. I could buy a lot leather for these amount of money. This is as far as the possible expense I could see. I might have to take the easy, less head ache route and go local.Thank yo for giving me all these information. Make me hold on any purchase and do more thinking first. I know a little bit about sewing machine but dont understand the timing adjustment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 8, 2014 (edited) I would be good to buy the Cb3200. I have been looking at it because of the attractive price. http://www.tolindsewmach.com/cb3200.html If the 3200 will do the job, (up to 1/2 inch of leather) the the cost is $1595 out of the box and ready to sew. Besides shipping there will be all kinds of add on fees for customs clearance, port fees, etc. You could be looking at a few hundred dollars additional. Assuming you already have a customs broker.. You would be NUTs to buy this machine from China..IMHO when you could buy a similar warranted, well supported machine for possibly less than the direct import. Cya! Bob Just check on the sewing machine import to US + is duty free. So I dont really have to pay anything in the port. I went to the site where they calculated the VAT and import taxes form China to US= 0 this the result of I will pay. If I have my sewing machine insured here to a private company insurance I think I will pay less than $900 in a year. If they accept me. That I have to look into.I know that insurance company will insure anything for a price. Edited July 8, 2014 by korokan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 8, 2014 I assume you have never been involved with imports because you will need a licensed customs broker to tell the Customs people that there is 0 duty and to file all the paperwork. Check with the sea freight company and ask them what fees would be involved in clearing the item. You may be surprised! Cya! Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 8, 2014 If I have to hire a sewing machine technician to come to the house and align the hook and the needle, how much do I have to pay in NY ? I assume you have never been involved with imports because you will need a licensed customs broker to tell the Customs people that there is 0 duty and to file all the paperwork. Check with the sea freight company and ask them what fees would be involved in clearing the item. You may be surprised! Cya! Bob Sewing machine is duty free. So I dont have to pay anything in the custom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BDAZ Report post Posted July 8, 2014 You didn't understand. You still will need a broker and file customs forms regardless of the duty. Find out what those charges are. You WILL pay fees to the customs and fees to the broker but no duty. Cya! Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtclod Report post Posted July 8, 2014 Just buy the machine from China and be done with it. While your waiting for it to get here you can count the money you saved. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
korokan Report post Posted July 9, 2014 I assume you have never been involved with imports because you will need a licensed customs broker to tell the Customs people that there is 0 duty and to file all the paperwork. Check with the sea freight company and ask them what fees would be involved in clearing the item. You may be surprised! Cya! Bob I dont know anything about broker imports. I dont know about imports at all. This is why I started this topic.. I am gonna ask the sea freight company how much money is involved . Thanks a lot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gottaknow Report post Posted July 9, 2014 I don't order machines except through US dealers. I don't have time to fuss with all the import stuff. My time is extremely valuable when it comes to sewing machines. The dealers I buy from always give me a fair price, and I can't remember the last time I questioned a price. My free time is scarce, and that's why if I were ever to by a new leather machine, I'd want it set and ready to go and would gladly pay for it, though I could do it myself. I repair machines 40 hours a week, so in my spare time I'd rather be sewing. Whatever you decide, I really hope it works out for you. To answer another question, when I do freelance work I charge $75/hr with a 1 hour minimum. If I lived in NY, I'd probably charge more. Another thing to keep in mind if you need to hire a mechanic. Make sure they are capable of working on your machine. Not all mechanics are familiar with all styles. Regards, Eric Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
