Stirrup leathers an fenders

[Timbo]

On this saddle does it appear that the stirrup leathers and fenders are riveted all together?? I mean all 3 layers-stirrup leather then fender then back stirrup leather.

It kind of looks that way to me. Would there be anything wrong with doing it this way??

Thanks,

Tim

[TroyWest]

I would say no, they are not. The problem with doing it that way would mean you could not adjust your stirrup leather for different lengths. Another problem with this particular saddle is the Blevins buckles are right on top of the rigging rings.

[Echo4V]

It actually looks to me like they are rivetted together. Troy is right that it would severly limit stirrup adjustment but it would also keep the fender close to the seat which doesn't seem to me to have any practical purpus other than aesthetics. It also seems to me that having the fender where it is would cause your thigh to get pinched everytime you move your leg. I also don't like the fact that the rigging ring is under the blevins buckle as that will create quite a lump under your leg. If I were modifying this saddle to my own taste I would move the rigging forward enough to get it out from under the stirrup leather and I would take those rivets out, but maybe you could put a loop there (like a belt keeper loop) around both layers of stirrup leather. That would give you that flat look but you would still be able to adjust the stirrup where you wanted it.

Also, I don't know what kind of riding you do but you might want a cantle pocket when you build your saddle. They are very handy for rides when you don't need saddle bags but don't want to sit on your wallet the whole time.

Just a couple of suggestions.

David

[D.A. Kabatoff]

It's very doubtful all three layers are riveted because this would have to be done while the fenders/leathers were hung on the tree... otherwise you wouldn't be able to loop them over the bars of the tree. If it was done this way you wouldn't be able to adjust them as Troy mentioned and you also wouldn't be able to remove them from the tree without popping the rivets.

Darc

[BrianHochstrat]

It is not riveted clear through, even though it appears that way in the picture. Had he went all the way through there would be no need for the blevins buckles or even the tail on the stirrup leather, being it would have no length adjustment at all, and could you imagine the irritation of trying the pean the rivets with the stirrup leathers on the saddle. And yes the rigging is at least 3 inches lower than it really should be, IMHO. Brian

[oldtimer]

The stirrup leathers are not riveted together. If you take a close look they are made the "usual" way, with the stirrup leathers riveted on to the fenders, old time style. So there is nothing unusual in this construction.

[ArtS]

I think it's just the stirrups straps riveted to the fenders and not to the back straps. Otherwise the straps wouldn't be adjustable.

Art

[Timbo]

Thanks for all the replies. Never thought about it but Darc is right, it would be hard as hell to rivet all of that together on the tree.

As for the rigging I had already spotted that conflict as well. I don't know why the rigging is so low or so far back. It is bordering on being a center fire rig. I had some experience with a clients center fire rig this summer and on our barrell bellied horses it moved all over the place. Every time I turned around the saddle was sitting up over the horses shoulders and after one long downhill section he was actually riding the horses neck. But it was his great uncles saddle...blah blah blah. If it had been my decision it would have stayed at the ranch and never seen a trail.

But anyway, yeah, the rigging needs moved up and forward.

As for the stirrup leathers and fender. I'll rivet them as such but probably also sew the leathers to the fender as well.

I also agree that the fender top could be a pinch point on a very tender spot of anatomy so I'll have to put some thought into a redesign on that as well. I guess just moving them lower would also do the trick, which would also mean to make them shorter too I suppose.

I've thought long and hard about the saddle pocket idea but I have a tooling idea for the back of the cantle that I want to do really bad.

I am going to be making a removable cantle bag/saddle bag setup to put on the saddle I'm going to make. After getting my "petroleum" cantle bag and saddle bags ripped off and ruined this summer I have some ideas of what I am NOT going to do anyway.

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas guys........they are greatly appreciated. Without all the knowledge from the saddlers on this forum I would not even attempt making a saddle, but I'm about to jump in with both feet, so expect LOTS more questions.

Keep those ideas rolling.

Also what do you think about the "D" cutout in the skirts for hooking the breast collar to??? Good or Bad??? I can see up sides and down sides to it. Up is the weight savings.........down is the damage it could do to the skirt in a wreck. Then again once the rigging ring is properly located why not just hook to it??

Sorry if this seems rambling but I'm thinkin out loud........with my fingers.

Any more thoughts or concerns on this saddle let me know.

Thanks again for all the input.

Tim

.......and I like the idea of the keeper loop on the stirrup leathers too. I might see what I can come up with in that respect.

and by the way Dave the riding I do is as a trail guide/wrangler in the summers in the Sangre de Christo mountains of Central Colorado. (ok, now I'm bragging) Which is the purpose of the saddle I am going to build. Going to try to keep it light weight and comfy. But mostly leaning to light weight since I got by with a very uncomfortable saddle all summer. It will not be possible for me to build something as uncomfortable as that one.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Timbo

[greg gomersall]

If you are gonna build a half seat saddle with no seat jockey as pictured you are gonna want the tops of the fenders to come right up to the seat edge. On the fenders no loops or anything will be required. That is a basic set of half double stirrup leathers in all other aspects. Greg

[Timbo]

If you are gonna build a half seat saddle with no seat jockey as pictured you are gonna want the tops of the fenders to come right up to the seat edge. On the fenders no loops or anything will be required. That is a basic set of half double stirrup leathers in all other aspects. Greg

So as far as the picture goes, you are saying these fenders would need to match the shape of the bottom bar right up to the cantle point?? So that there are no gaps between seat and fender?? I can see how that would work. Also when you adjust them the top of the stirrup leather and fender will need to stay in the same place with all the adjustment taking place on the stirrup end. Right??

Half double stirrup leathers is a new one on me....I thought these would just be considered half leathers. But I'm learning.

Thanks for the advice Greg, it is very much appreciated as is all the advice I get from this forum on a regular basis.

Tim

[greg gomersall]

Try and find some pictures of some old S. Loomis or some early Main & Winchester saddles from the west coast. Back in the 1860-1870 era this type of set up was quite comman. If you measure your inseam versus your fender and stirrup leather length properly you don't need much adjustment. The fender does not need to come back to the cantle point but it does need come up on the edge of the seat a hair.

Half leathers attach to the top of the fender, full leathers run the full length of the fender under the fender. Half double's run the full length of the fender on top of the fender and full double's actualy start at the bottom of the fender go around up the back under the bar out over the fender back around under the bar and the come out down and attach to the fender at the top, Not real comman antmore but still seen from time to time on some real classy rigs. You can also cut the fender and stirrup leather from one piece of leather. Hope this helps. Greg

[Timbo]

I'm also thinking that I could tear drop or taper the top into the stirrup leather so that the pinchpoint would be eliminated. Or what about just making the fender shorter so it doesn't come up so high and cause the problem?? If I wore my tall boots all the time I would just skip fenders altogether, but they are lousy in the mountains.

Any fender suggestions??

tim

[oldtimer]

I'm also thinking that I could tear drop or taper the top into the stirrup leather so that the pinchpoint would be eliminated. Or what about just making the fender shorter so it doesn't come up so high and cause the problem?? If I wore my tall boots all the time I would just skip fenders altogether, but they are lousy in the mountains.

Any fender suggestions??

tim

If you make the fenders a bit short ( up to the bottom of the bar) and put the stirrup leather on top of the fender there is no risk of pinching. I have been riding skeleton saddles for the last seven years and never experienced any pinching problem. On my latest personal saddle I made the fenders old mexican style and they work just fine.

[Timbo]

Thanks for all the help guys.

One last question that nobody caught..........what about the "D" holes cut in the skirt for the breast collar rigging to attach to??

Tim

[Echo4V]

Timbo,

As far as the d cut out in the skirt for a breast collar attachment, my .02 is that it is unnecessary. I have had saddles with d rings mounted on them for the breast collar ( never had the cut outs though) and I have always just hooked to my rigging ring or even hooked it around my cinch strap. To me that is a much stronger place than the d ring on the front of the saddle. I would also be afraid that the cut out would get torn out then you would have to replace or repair the skirts. I don't ride in the Sangre De Cristos but I do ride some pretty steep hills so I know the value of a good breast collar but it seems to me that the place that d rings are on the saddle tends to make it a neck collar unless you use the one that's shaped like a big U on the horse's chest. Personally, I use a walking horse breast collar ( 2 inch leather strap) and it rides perfectly across the chest when hooked to the rigging. Plus I don't have to worry about that rigging ring breaking off the saddle on a scramble up a hill. If you ride with britchen on your saddle are you going to hook it to the back rigging rings or put in d rings?

As far as the rivetting on the fenders...if the idea is to keep the fender smack up against the edge of the seat then why couldn't all three layers be rivetted together? I do accept everyone's concensus that they are not, I'm just wondering (hypothetically) why this couldn't be the case. If the back of the leather had holes punched all the way up and there was a long enough tail to the front part you would get plenty of adjustment on the stirrup and you would never have to worry about the fender sliding down out of the place it was supposed to be.

Another fender idea I have seen recently is the fender rivetted and sewn to the skirt. Then the stirrup leather was ran like normal except it was routed through slots cut into the fender. The one I saw was an old saddle at the Amish saddle maker's shop I went to this past weekend and the leather went under the fender at the top and came back out about 2 inches from the bottom of the fender then through the stirrup and to the buckle. It looked to me like it would impede leg movement but the Amish guy who was having it worked on said it didn't bother him ( of course you can get used to anything). Has anyone ever seen this fender set up?

[Timbo]

That is what I was thinking on the slots in the skirts as well. (that it has the potential for damaging the skirt) I think I'll skip putting on any attachment points for a breast collar and just use the rigging rings like I always have.

I have never used a britchen set up and don't plan on it. I also never use a belly band in the mountains. Both of these have the potential to cause a wreck in my opinion. The bushwhackin we have to do sometimes gets pretty treacherous and I don't need extra stuff to get caught on the rocks and trees or for the horse to get tangled in.

I'm with you on the thought of riveting all 3 layers together. The tops would always stay in the same spot and adjustment will be done at the bottoms.

Don't think I'd like the fender attached to the skirt. Seems like it would impede movement like you said. I've never seen that set up before.

tim

Edited October 29, 2008 by Timbo

[bruce johnson]

Timbo,

I don't much care for cutouts in skirts. They mights tear out if you get in wreck, although I'd hope the tug would break first. The strap and dees can also, but usually they are an easier fix. Most of the saddles I have seen the slots on have them positioned lower than I like to set my breast collar dees also.

Echo,

That stirrup leather through the fender deal was used in the past. You still see some guys who will bring the leather out through a slot in the fenders down low. The fender leg then makes the inside layer for the stirrup pin to rest on. Interesting look and a little different. Some old fenders had two slots and just slid on the leathers too. I guess it was fairly common on some dude ranch model saddles at one time. I can't think that riveting and sewing a fender to the skirt and then running the leather through it would have any advantage for anything.

[Echo4V]

Timbo,

I thought that britchen was pretty popular in Colorado(at least that's what I was told) and that back cinches were almost required in the mountains out there...Anyway, I think you'll be more satisfied with using the rigging ring either way you go.

Bruce,

I've seen what you are talking about with the fender just sliding on the stirrup leather, it's used quite a bit still today on gaited horse saddles. Especially the ones that use english stirrup leathers. There is another kind of fender, used with english leathers, that has a sleeve sewn on the back of the fender and the leathers run through that sleeve. These both seem to be popular on saddles that have english stirrup leathers because of the tendancy for the english leathers to pinch the rider's calf. I also don't have any idea why a fender would be sewn and rivetted to the skirt of the saddle but the guy seemed to really like it...to each, his own...I guess.

David

[Go2Tex]

.................and full double's actualy start at the bottom of the fender go around up the back under the bar out over the fender back around under the bar and the come out down and attach to the fender at the top, Not real comman antmore but still seen from time to time on some real classy rigs. .............. Hope this helps. Greg

Huh?? Can you provide a diagram of this? I'm totally confused. Sounds like it's looped around the bar twice.

[greg gomersall]

Huh?? Can you provide a diagram of this? I'm totally confused. Sounds like it's looped around the bar twice.

Brent they do go over the bar twice. The current computer configuration i have does not let me scan things but PM me your address and i will send you a drawing. greg

[Timbo]

Timbo,

I thought that britchen was pretty popular in Colorado(at least that's what I was told) and that back cinches were almost required in the mountains out there...Anyway, I think you'll be more satisfied with using the rigging ring either way you go.

The only thing I see them used on is pack horses. That's all we use them for at the ranch I work for. None of the guides use anything other than just a normal cinch and breast collar when they go into the mountains. This past summer I learned the hardway about getting a "good deal" on a cinch/breast collar set. (note to self: spend lots on a cinch)

tim

[kseidel]

The reason for the breast collar dees to be hung higher is to keep the collar above the point of the shoulder. If you use a dropped front rigging, it is too low to attach a breast collar. The collar will fall off of the horses shoulder and wear off the hair during regular riding. It will hold ok during hard climbs, but will affect the movement of the horses leg and shoulder, and jerk your saddle uncomfortably.

A properly fitting tree will not require the breast collar to hold the saddle in place nearly as much as an ill fitting one. I seldom use a collar anymore, even when riding in the steep mountains of Wyoming. I only use one for all day roping like at a branding or ranch roping. My rigging is hung low and my breast collar is Y shaped and attaches to dees hung higher on the saddle.

Tying the stirrup leathers together at the tpo of the fender and below the tree in any way, whether riveting or with a loop, will severly restrict forward movement. The only way that this would work is to attach both stirrup leather and fender together and attach on a pivot point on the top side of the bar. Visalia had an attachment like this in the 20,s and 30's. The tail was longer at the bottom of the fender and cut up into the bottom of the fender to allow for adjustment... much like Fallis Balanced Ride saddles. Fallis balanced ride saddles

Keith