Are The Old Machines Better/more Reliable Than The New Clones?

[lranger]

Thank you all for your input. I agree with you, Tramp. I wonder the same thing.

Again, I want to be clear that I'm not knocking any of the new machines here, I'm only trying to determine if the long time users of the older machines have a general opinion that the older machines are more trouble free. That's all.

Cheryl, your figures are confusing me. You said your first job on the Cobra was 20 oz. The thickest skirting leather I've seen is 15 oz.,,,, about 1/4". Do you mean you were sewing two layers of 10 oz. leather? And on the pics. They aren't very clear for me when I open them, but it looks like the material is very thin, like 2 oz., and you called it 1". Do you mean 1 mm? Anyway, thin leather, like 2 oz. garment leather, is going to move. It wiggles around, walks, and stretches. I always glue everything together to keep it from moving when I sew,,,, even when hand stitching. I've sewn a LOT of buckskin, the movin'est stuff you can get. I always glue,, even thicker vegtan, 'cause I don't want it to move. I've never tried tape because I worry that it will adversely affect the machine's ability to sew. I hope you have very good luck with your Cobra, and the pouch you're working on. I'll be watching for a post.

I've never seen a Cobra machine except in videos, but they seem pretty impressive. I am even more impressed with how thoroughly Steve explains EVERYTHING about the machine in his video. The reason I didn't buy one was because there wasn't one for light weight material, at least not that I saw.

Keith

[Constabulary]

The youngest machine I have is a Singer 29K71 from the late 1960´s and the oldest a Singer 133K from 1932. They ALL are restored machines (more or less) and they ALL run w/o problem since the day I personally have restored / refurbished them and I´m not a sewing machine mechanic.

Why do I buy used machines? 1st off all for money reasons! I believe you get the most for your money when you are buying used machines of well known manufacturers with good reputation. It also is some sort of environmental protection - I think I don´t have to explain it - or do I have to? But it of course depends on your personal situation - how fast do you need the machine and how much you can spend and how is the market in your era (or the www) and can you find a used machine with the specs you require. But used machines can be a risk as well. The more the paint is worn off, the more old oil and dust (or even rust) they have the bigger the risk is. But I personally never had bigger problems - even with very worn looking machines (as my Singer 111) but it of course is a risk and you need the time to restore them - if necessary.

I´m personally not in a hurry as I´m not "sewing for a living". It is more or less a hobby for me and I like to keep these old clunkers alive because I´m convinced of their quality and durability. I think durability is THE word what it is all about since you should "get back" what you have spent with what you are producing with the machine. And you get back the the money earlier the less you have spent for your (used) equipment and the longer your equipment lasts the more profit you can make. Simple & stupid - maybe - but isn´t it that way?

It took a lot of time and trial and error before I found and found out what I really need but that was a good learning and fun. And I´m sure I'm not done! Learning can also safe you a lot of money. The more you know about your machines the less you have to pay for service - if you know what I mean.

So you have to try to balance pro + contras of new and used machines.

Back then industrial machines were build to last and to repair and and the market was small. There were just a few known manufacturers so it was a little bit a competition. They tried to stand out with the quality of their products and technical features and not with the cheapest the price.

Nowadays you have dozens of Asian manufactures with names you will probably not hear again in 10 years - if you hear or read their names at all somewhere. They all produce (or copy) the successful machines of the well known manufacturers. The best example is the Juki 441 or Singer 111 - everybody knows them and knows their copies as well. Of course the Adler 67, 167 or Pfaff 145 and 545 are more or less copies (or as others say - an interpretation) of the Singer 111 but I think I don´t have to loose words and everybody knows that the 2 mentioned are top quality Mfg´s (among others like Juki, Seiko...).

But all the Chinese Mfg´s are in a fight for market power and I don´t think the quality will become much better in their part of the world. They for sure have learned over the years but that does not convince me. Nowadays in most cases the sale of an item depends on the price. And how can you compare quality without knowing the manufacturer? All machines look the same. The only (outside) difference it the label some on put on the machine.

And what I DO NOT like is that they all look exactly the same - they just have different labels or plaques attached - thats it! But how can you know that all these Look-A-Likes are mfg. to the same specs and have exactly the same dimensional accuracy w/o really knowing who made the machine? No problem as long as the machine is a couple of years old but how is it in 25 years? Who can tell you if this or that part will fit - I´m sure no one knows. You just have to try if a part will fir or not because no one knows the "real" manufacturer and maybe the Mfg. in China is gone already. I´m not convince that I will read names like Golden Wheel, Soje, Kaixuan, Duma, Feifeng, Jack, Jukai (not JUKI - ha ha), Jakly or what ever they are called in 50 + year.

(BTW - google JACK, JAKLY and JUKAI and tell me what you have figured - pretty obvious, isn´t it)

In one of the latest post a member was looking for an ARTISAN presser foot but Artisan was not able to deliver it!!!

Hell, what - they cannot deliver a presser foot for their own machines! WOW! And thats how it starts - now lets look how it is in 20 years. I think you still can buy Singer parts but who knows if Artisan can deliver parts for their own branded or labeled machines? Do you see what I mean?

Don´t get me wrong - I don´t think the quality is bad in general I just don´t believe they will last as long the old known brands did or still do. And the availability of parts is another story. If parts are not available the machine is dead!

But as I said before - you have to try to balance pro + contras of new and used machines. And a good documentation and a dealer with a good reputation is quite important the more complex a machine is - no matter if new or used!

Just my 2 cents (or is it a Dollar already?) - or shorty story long

[DoubleC]

lranger, this is a light weight project I'm doing on my cobra. I'll show you my first one, 10 oz doubled....You can see it was so hard for me to hold the bends that I had to wet the leather to roll it to sew.

Edited November 18, 2014 by DoubleC

[Constabulary]

cool chair by the way nice idea to put LTD´s on it to attach the straps.

[lranger]

I see what you mean, Cheryl. I just love to see someone save something that's old so it can live a while longer. It is a nice chair. Just right for a cowgirl.

Constabulary, nicely said, and I agree with you 100%. I WAS in a hurry when I bought my machine because I had a lot of work come in and I needed to get to working fast. Now, though, I have time to learn more about the machines and find a good oldie. Actually, my little Pfaff portable is the one doing the work now, but it will allow me to get it done and give me time. For a small home machine, it is doing a fine job,,,, and I only paid $15.00 for it. (I did have to partially disassemble it to free it up because it wouldn't sew when I bought it.)

Thank you everyone for your replies. You've answered my question.

[Colt W Knight]

Older machines were made so well, sewing machine manufacturers use to destroy older models in order to sell newer models.

I had an abused 50's model Singer that still sewed like brand new after I cleaned it up.

[catskin]

Iranger, It has to do with knowing how to use a machine. How long would your truck , chain saw, etc. last if you had some kid who had never seen one before and did not care, operate them??? Same with sewing machines, you might be a mechanic but that doesn't mean you understand sewing machines the same as I might or somebody else does. Most six year olds can do a hundred times more then I can with a computer but I have yet to find one who knows one tenth as much as I do on making and fitting harness. So while you and all the others that are dising newer machines I would be willing to bet you will NOT be sewing in 90 years time. I have 5 machines ranging in age from OLD OLD to a Cowboy 4500 all do excellent work if they are used right all can give no end to trouble if the operator doesn't know how to use them. No different from your machines.

Edited November 20, 2014 by catskin

[lranger]

Catskin, please show me a quote where I, or others have dissed the new machines.

I merely asked for the opinion of long time, experienced users of sewing machines for sewing leather, whether they think the old ones are better/more reliable than the new ones.

I personally have always believed that old machinery and tools are made better than new ones. Just take guns for example: Why are pre-'64 Winchester model 94s worth more than post '64 model 94s?

[Colt W Knight]

Catskin, please show me a quote where I, or others have dissed the new machines.

I merely asked for the opinion of long time, experienced users of sewing machines for sewing leather, whether they think the old ones are better/more reliable than the new ones.

I personally have always believed that old machinery and tools are made better than new ones. Just take guns for example: Why are pre-'64 Winchester model 94s worth more than post '64 model 94s?

Same deal with Sewing Machines, By 64 Winchester realized the the cost of production was too high, and the customer wouldn't be able to afford their product, especially with steep competition from the Remington 700. They had to find ways to produce the rifle cheaper. The Ithaca 37 fell to the Remington 870 for the same reason. If Singer was to make a new sewing machine with the same rock solid construction, no one could afford it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Colt W Knight

[lranger]

Absolutely correct, Colt, but I also believe people took more pride in their products back in the old days.

The pre-'64 model 94 had better steel, more accurate machining, and stronger/better action than the post 94s, and the reason was to save money on production. So in my opinion, the older Winchester is better/more reliable than the post '64s. That does not mean that the post 64's are no good, it just means I'd rather have a pre-'64,,, because it's better.