overkill on a tree

[raftert]

How are yall,

A customer just ordered a saddle with these spects. 15" SF Bowman double dally horn 2" cap,

93 degree, fiberglass on the wood then double bullhide cover. First question, will I have to order a 15 1/2" or 16" tree so when all this material is placed on the wood the finished tree will be a true 15" and in all of your opinions is this overkill in rawhide and not worth the extra cost.

This man trips alot and is very hard on a saddle. He has broken several trees from pretty well known saddle makers.

Tim

[bruce johnson]

Tim,

As far as is the extra cost worth it? That extra expense will be the cheapest part of that saddle. Your time to take out and stick a new tree in to replace one that is broken is way more. If you and the tree maker do eveything he wants, then if it breaks - it just plain broke from use and no excuses. Some tree makers used to put a steel "skid plate" in the gullet and bolt the horns on rather than screws too. I am not sure if anyone does that anymore.

Regarding what size to order, I'd talk with the treemaker and see how much they think the extra will take in. They should have a pretty good idea. It sure could be 3/4-1" figuring doubling up on the back of the swells and depending on if you measure the cantle at the peak or the front of the face.

[pella]

This man trips alot and is very hard on a saddle. He has broken several trees from pretty well known saddle makers.

poor horse...!

[kseidel]

How are yall,

A customer just ordered a saddle with these spects. 15" SF Bowman double dally horn 2" cap,

93 degree, fiberglass on the wood then double bullhide cover. First question, will I have to order a 15 1/2" or 16" tree so when all this material is placed on the wood the finished tree will be a true 15" and in all of your opinions is this overkill in rawhide and not worth the extra cost.

This man trips alot and is very hard on a saddle. He has broken several trees from pretty well known saddle makers.

Tim

Tim,

It is your treemakers responsibility to deliver a tree finished to your specs. He will need to adjust for extra thickness in seat length as well as gullet height and width, space between bars, cantle height, horn cap width, etc, etc. That is a lot of insurance, but as Bruce said, replacing a tree is very costly, and rarely fits as well as the original.

Depending on who you chose as treemaker, there are other considerations in tree construction to make it stronger. Better wood, laminated bars, dovetailed attachment of front and cantle.... not all treemakers make the same quality of trees. I used to have to replace quite a few broken trees prior to switching to better made handbuilt trees. I have not had to replace one in over 15 years. I do not mean to impune factory made trees, but the construction methods used to facilitate volume do not allow for some of the features in handbuilt trees that make them stronger.

Keith

[jwwright]

Tim..........I personally don't think it is over kill for a tripping saddle. You may already have a tree maker that you like for this type of saddle............if not, you might check with Ray Lewis. There are many tripping saddles in use holding up well with Ray's trees in them. Ray's father, Wilford was considered by many to be the premeir maker of trees and saddles for tripping. JW

[bruce johnson]

Pella,

I think I know what you are thinking, this guy rides horses that trip and fall down. Actually this is a rodeo event that is also called single steer roping. Fastest to do all this wins. Basically the rider has his rope tied to the saddle horn. He ropes the running steer around the horns (the only legal catch) from the steer's left side (other than Trevor's dad, he's a lefty but that's another story) and then flips the excess rope over the steer's back to hang on the right side of the steer. You ride off to the left and the rope basically pulls up from behind takes his legs out, and lays the steer down. The horse continues to drag the steer as the rider steps off and ties the steer's legs together, and signals for time. Remounts then, gives slack in the rope, and if the steer stays tied, it is an official time. I think it takes one of the better trained timed event horses for this event. They have to run, have some handle, take the jerks, and then pull until the steer is tied, and then stop. This event is hard on saddles because there is one jerk on the horn when the steer hits the end of the rope, another when he hits the ground, and then a steady pull back on the horn when they log or pull the steer. It is a little hard on cattle. As time has gone on, they are roping smaller steers now, less horn on them, and in pretty good ground. I was at the last steer roping national finals they had in Laramie, and it was a cool time and great watching. It was kind of during the change from the old time guys to the new young cowboy athletes, and interesting to compare styles. Who was "safe"and who was "wolfy", add paramutuel betting and it was a stellar weekend.

This is not a universal rodeo event. Some states don't allow it. Some states have no regulations, and some have big time steer ropings. Off the top of my head, Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, Oregon, Wyoming, and Washington have it. It doesn't happen in California, but we have a few guys who compete in the Timed Event Championship in Oklahoma. They practice here and do it there.

[Crystal]

Pella,

I think I know what you are thinking, this guy rides horses that trip and fall down. Actually this is a rodeo event that is also called single steer roping. Fastest to do all this wins. Basically the rider has his rope tied to the saddle horn. He ropes the running steer around the horns (the only legal catch) from the steer's left side (other than Trevor's dad, he's a lefty but that's another story) and then flips the excess rope over the steer's back to hang on the right side of the steer. You ride off to the left and the rope basically pulls up from behind takes his legs out, and lays the steer down. The horse continues to drag the steer as the rider steps off and ties the steer's legs together, and signals for time. Remounts then, gives slack in the rope, and if the steer stays tied, it is an official time. I think it takes one of the better trained timed event horses for this event. They have to run, have some handle, take the jerks, and then pull until the steer is tied, and then stop. This event is hard on saddles because there is one jerk on the horn when the steer hits the end of the rope, another when he hits the ground, and then a steady pull back on the horn when they log or pull the steer. It is a little hard on cattle. As time has gone on, they are roping smaller steers now, less horn on them, and in pretty good ground. I was at the last steer roping national finals they had in Laramie, and it was a cool time and great watching. It was kind of during the change from the old time guys to the new young cowboy athletes, and interesting to compare styles. Who was "safe"and who was "wolfy", add paramutuel betting and it was a stellar weekend.

This is not a universal rodeo event. Some states don't allow it. Some states have no regulations, and some have big time steer ropings. Off the top of my head, Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Kansas, Oregon, Wyoming, and Washington have it. It doesn't happen in California, but we have a few guys who compete in the Timed Event Championship in Oklahoma. They practice here and do it there.

I have to thank you, Bruce, for the explaination. First post had me thinking that the guy couldn't carry his saddle because he tripped, fell and landed on it all the time...

Then Pella had me wondering about the horse.

I am learning so much here on LW.

Crystal

[raftert]

First off Bruce, Kieth,and JW thank you for the info I almost forgot the first rule QUALITY,

Here in Central Texas we still have quite a few trippings but closer to the bigger cities ( except Ft. Worth ) they almost never happen. Hopefully it wont become a dying art because the horses are some of the best .

Thank again

Tim

[pella]

thanks Bruce for precision, i was not sure what mean "trip". I think i still dont know what mean exactly "trip" but i understand the event.

[ArtS]

I've never heard of steer tripping until today. I've never seen it at any rodeos that I've been to. I looked it up on Youtube. I'm glad I never saw it in person. I love to watch roping but this looks way to rough on the steers for my taste. I can see why he needs a tough tree.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avUalKCAg-A...feature=related

Art

[Mike Craw]

Hey Pella!

If I understand your post correctly, the term "trip" in common usage means to stumble or miss your step. As with many other words in the English language, there may be no obvious reason why Americans from different parts of the US use a word in a particular way. To make matters worse, many of us use the same word differently from folks in other regions of our same country!

I can't imagine what folks on this board from other countries, who didn't grow up speaking our brand of English, must be thinking

Mike

[Steve Brewer]

I can see the double rawhidecover,But rawhide is tougher than fiberglass.I would think that the Two layers of rawhide will make the tree strong enough.With that said,you have to go with what the customer wants

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Our stand has always been that with good wood (type and construction) you will never need more than one layer of decent thickness rawhide for a normal working tree. And this tree falls under "normal working use" in our terminology. I am attaching a picture of dried rawhide. The measured one is a normal full thickness bull hide, where the term bull hide applies to the full thickness skin off a mature (age makes a difference), male bovine as opposed to a specific thickness of split rawhide. (You cannot buy rawhide that has not been split, and the thinnest piece in our picture is as thick or thicker than any production rawhide we have seen.) The next thickness would be what we would use on an order like this, knowing how hard he would use the saddle. The extra thick one IS overkill. And double rawhiding is overkill IF you use quality rawhide.

I remember one phone call. It started with "I have an equipment tester for you." This maker had replaced three trees in guy's saddle in the last few years. So we used a really heavy hide on the tree. It wasn't as pretty as some - extra hide thickness rounds the bar edges more, etc – but it was stout. We've heard a couple good wreck stories since about that saddle, including a big horse flipping over backwards on a concrete pad, but the tree is intact. That was over 10 years ago.

And Keith is right. The tree maker should compensate in the wood for the thickness of covering he is expecting to use so the seat length comes out right.

But, if you are looking at the rawhide simply as a reinforcement to the fiberglass, that is another ballpark and we aren't players in that game.