Asking For Patterns: Opinions, Please

[HARVEY]

We sure do see some great looking designs and patterns on our site. Question: is it bad form do you think to ask someone if they'd be willing to share? What do you think?

[Brandon]

We sure do see some great looking designs and patterns on our site. Question: is it bad form do you think to ask someone if they'd be willing to share? What do you think?

Be it good looking or not when someone asked I'll share it and I'll not hesitate to ask too but from my pass expriences not many will say "THANK YOU" after they received it!It just give you that feeling that you owed them!If you want me to name them, I could but that's not courteous eh?

Be it good looking or not when someone asked I'll share it and I'll not hesitate to ask too but from my past expriences not many will say "THANK YOU" after they received it!It just give you that feeling that you owed them!If you want me to name them, I could but that's not courteous eh?

[TomSwede]

I don't have the same experience as Brandon. I have helped with some images that I scavenged internet for and have sat down and written basically what is instructions for a technique or construction and stuff like that and it has been very appreciated and I think for every single time I've seen big thanks when people published a finished project from whatever input I had.

So onwards I move to the core issue.

If this were a marketing/selling business site I think asking for patterns and stuff would be maybe not inapropriate butt a bit unfitting.

However this is a forum for leatherworkers and we are all here to learn and without sharing stuff we could not do just that so just ask away but be sure to show your gratitude and give back and we'll keep this forum run forever and get our products out there and soon enough we'll be rich and famous and people will pay anything we want for our stuff...eh oh well maybe I drifted off there a bit;-)

Tom

[ClayB]

I dont think it's bad form to ask. I really hope it's not bad form to ask, becasue I do it! But if you do, make sure to thank them and let them know it's appreciated, and also give credit to them for the pattern when you use it. If you did ask and they didn't want to share a pattern for whatever reason, I think you need to respect that too.

I do think it's in bad form when people ask for a pattern someone else has done, say in a book. When they say,"I really like that pattern, but I don't want to pay for the book, could you make a copy of it for me?"

[Johanna]

One our members drew some patterns for a fellow member, and when the person attempted to pay, she directed them to make a contribution to LW instead. I don't think it's wrong to ask- if someone doesn't want to help, they wll say, "No." It isn't right to just lift someone else's work and call it your own, though. I know members have shared patterns and said, "I made this, but Mrs. SuperKnife drew the pattern for me." It's also a no-no to photocopy Tandy patterns and share them because Tandy sells the patterns and they are copyrighted. No one may know but you, but it's still wrong.

Just my two and a half cents this morning.

Johanna

[ClayB]

One our members drew some patterns for a fellow member, and when the person attempted to pay, she directed them to make a contribution to LW instead.

Ain't she something special!!

It's also a no-no to photocopy Tandy patterns and share them because Tandy sells the patterns and they are copyrighted. No one may know but you, but it's still wrong.

Back when we had a local leather store, I liked to hang out there sometimes. There was a lady filling in that didn't know a lot about leather stuff. One day a guy comes in and wants to make a shoulder holster. He didn't know anything about it so I went over and got the Stohlman book on holsters and found the page on shoulder holsters. He said "that's just what I need, do you have a copy machine?" The lady behind the counter said "no, why?" He said "well I dont want to buy the book, I just need that one page". He then found a piece of paper, traced the pattern, and started to write down the notes. I had to leave.......

Drawing patterns takes a different talent and can take a lot of time. I really appreciate those that do it well, whether they share for free, sell them, or keep them for thier own use.

[rickybobby]

Tandy patterns and share them because Tandy sells the patterns and they are copyrighted. No one may know but you, but it's still wrong.

Just my two and a half cents this morning.

Johanna

Johanna,

If I were a packrat of leather information for the last 35 years and had a pattern set that tandys discontinued, and someone requested that information and I have it. Then photo copied the discontinued patterns and only asked for copy and postage would that make me a "snake in the grass"?. lol!!

I have sent patterns that are not available any longer to folks and only asked for postage and copy money back. The people were thrilled and it was a great help to them, as some folks out side of the forum would not share and they were not able to even know how to start the project.

They thanked me over p.m.'s when they got the information.

Rick Jorgenson

[rickybobby]

We sure do see some great looking designs and patterns on our site. Question: is it bad form do you think to ask someone if they'd be willing to share? What do you think?

Ask away,

I think Clays response has the best insight and moral tone. Most of us here are learning and sometimes we just need a hand to finish a project and to learn something.

I try to share and have spent time at a copy store and then at the post office for folks in need of something at my own expense and other times I have asked for postage and copy fee's. Everyone has been very thankful and have never "skipped out" on payment for my cost's. I have sent leather to begginers and extra books I have collected in a flat rate postage box to help them and encourage them to keep practicing, (my own expense) it is something that I do to help keep the art alive (bring in new people).

This site is about sharing and I thank Johanna and the others that I know spend countless hours here giving advice and encouragement.

Just my .02 worth

Rick J.

[Ian]

I'm not sure about this one at all. I have found that pattern making is very often a huge part of the project and a skill that is an important one that anyone who does custom leather should develop. Asking someone to turn over many hours of pains taking work is a bit much, especially when it comes to a unique design. I have never used a pattern from a book. I have at least a hundred patterns that took me countless hours to develop. I'm stingy when it comes to sharing them.

When I get a private IM asking about how to do this or that, I try to be as helpful as I can, and usually folks are grateful for the time it takes to reply. I have had a few guys who, after I've taken a lot of effort to peck out detailed responses with my slow, one fingure typing skills, have just dissapeared without even a thanks.

One guy was purchasing the same harness stitcher as I have and had a lot of questions - no problem, I told him what I know. Then after he got the machine he had more questions. I took a great deal of time explaining the machine, needle and thread sizes, stitch-per-inch for the type of harness he was making, leather types and general harness making questions. Wouldn't you know it - not a word in reply, least of all a thanks. I don't believe this thing is typical of the regular members who have always been more than grateful for replies.

But, when it comes to asking for someone to turn over something that has taken a great deal of time to develop it is sometimes going too far.

[Tina]

I have found that pattern making is very often a huge part of the project and a skill that is an important one that anyone who does custom leather should develop. Asking someone to turn over many hours of pains taking work is a bit much, especially when it comes to a unique design.

I agree with the time it takes, the pattern takes at least 1/3 of the project times (manny times even more) then the carving/tooling and assembly takes the rest of the time, but...The idea starts maybe even months before that in the head:-) This is a part of the craft that if you dont draw your own designs and are used to craftaids and such... It might be a mystical of how much time it actually takes, to first come up with an idea and then get it down in the right size on paper. Not to mension how many times you change gear in the middle cuz the "new take" is much cooler, Mama Mia I have loads of them halfway project laying around

I will write some more in this subject during the day in the pattern area:-)

[8thsinner]

One of my gifts of skill is the ability to come up with new designs using my existing knowledge. Unfortunately MY knowledge is sometimes not as comprehensive as it can be, Also given that I was taught you gain nothing from asking no questions I have no quams about asking for someone to share their designs.

And when it comes to reversing the argument, I happily will give away my designs (But I hate them being stolen) and spend countless hours trying to figure out how to help people, I am generous like that as I believe knowledge should be freely shared, I also believe if this was the case world wide we would all be a little smarter. And we would get to where we are going a lot more quickly.

In any case, Designing is something I do constantly, I am always trying to figure out new ways of doing things and applying the skills and tricks I have discovered or read about. So why shouldn't I help others utilize my skills, It's part of what this forum is for is it not. Showing off your work is fun and pictures are always welcomed, These things are what inspires us to create and expand our own knowledge and ideas, and challenges our concepts of whats possible and opens the mind.

This to me is a great thing.

But to steal and not ask is just plain wrong.

Sorry to be philosophical but, well I am...

[Daggrim]

I'd be glad to help someone with advice about doing something similar to what I do, even specific advice about how to duplicate my item, but I wouldn't share the patterns. It took me many hours of concentrated work to get these helmets to look good, and to go together without much fuss (minimizing the Fuss Factor is a major portion of any successful design). I gathered all my info from the internet, and thru experimentation, and talking with other crafts people, and I'd just draw the line somewhere.

Dag

[jbird]

I don't have much time in the sharing thing but I will say that the members on this site have been wonderfull to help and share, and a thanks is in order because your opinion is share and your time is sharing so thanks for your help I have tried to be thankfull because lord knows I have needed a lot of work.

[bruce johnson]

We sure do see some great looking designs and patterns on our site. Question: is it bad form do you think to ask someone if they'd be willing to share? What do you think?

Harvey,

I don't see any problems with asking. The worst anyone can say when you ask is "no", and we've all heard that word from about the first time we hit daylight. Some people have propriety secrets (that may or may not be secret anyway) they won't share. To be honest I have heard a heck of lot about the secretive leatherworkers. I have been refused a direct technique question or advice exactly twice in 20 years. I have not always been told specifically how to do something, but left to figure some things out on my own.

[hidepounder]

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for help! We all need help at one time or another. Sharing our knowledge of techniques, methods and processes is what this forum is all about. But if the subject is proprietary, don't be surprised if the request is ignored! And you know what ?......no harm, no foul. I know that I'm willing to share what I've learned....I didn't learn everything all on my own....much was shared with me over the years.

Sharing ones knowledge, however, is very different than sharing your work. If you want to copy something that I do....I'll help you....after all, imitation is the purest form of flattery. But please don't ask me to send you a pattern I spent hours or days drawing for a customers project! I don't draw very well....it's hard for me...and I'm trying to get paid for my efforts. You may as well ask me for my pants because you can't find yours! Asking for a freebe is not the same as asking for help...and that's inappropriate.

Is it okay to ask someone to draw for you? Absolutely....perfectly acceptable...a mutual arrangement between two individuals. There's nothing wrong with that. However......if you really want to learn.......ask for a hand, not a hand-out!

[ttownfire]

I believe in open-source software. Likewise, I believe in open-source knowledge.

To me its funny to think that you have a proprietary secret in the world of sewing, stitching, general fabric or leather work. Patents are good for items that have been engineered and tested with NASA like precision and expense. Items like our Firefighter gear and such. But for consumer driven clothing and soft-goods manufacture I think patents are silly.

There are tips and tricks that will help make the job a bit easier, no doubt. However, if someone really wants to copy something you've made, they will do it if capable with or without your help. The only thing you can really control is the creative aspect that went into the design and being first to market. Everything else is replicable for the most part, it will only take time on the part of the person trying to replicate.

One should never rest thinking they have a lock on a certain style, method or market. One should always be expanding the creative aspect of the work as everything else beyond that is basically the same. At least that is how I see it... YMMV

Edited November 14, 2008 by ttownfire

[TwinOaks]

Asking for help with a pattern is good, even asking someone to make it for you. As was said, the worst that can be said is "No". We have a section here called "How do I do that?" in which there are LOTS of questions- it's one way to help keep beating a dead cow. I also have to agree that sometimes the correct answer is "no". BOOMstick recently put up a holster pic that I absolutely loved, and at some point will immulate--but not copy--for some of my own holsters. The reason is that he posted that design as an example of what he does for a living. That's my personal take on designs. Images floating around the 'net are a little different, but I will make an effort to change an image I like so that it doesn't infringe on anyone's copyright, or will ask permission to use it. Of the several times that I've asked permission to use a specific image as a pattern, I've never been turned down.

Then there's reverse engineering. If you're making something for you and won't be mass producing it, or marketing it, then there's probably no problem. If you do start making and selling the item without significant changes, it can cause a world of problems in a legal way. This happened here with a holster design, where one person said " look what I did, and I have a contract with "X" custom gun maker." Another person was alerted and said " REALLY? That looks like a knock off of MY design which has been in production for several years. In fact, it IS my design!!! I know that gun maker personally and will be contacting him about this, and we'll see you in court." The result I believe was the cancelation of the contract with the first person, and the worse thing, a very tarnished reputation. ( I think this was the Versamax VMII....it was pre-crash)

Edited November 14, 2008 by TwinOaks

[K-Man]

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for help and/or a pattern, provided it's not proprietary in some form.

I got a bit irked not long ago by a person who asked for advice on a number of aspects of holster making. I don't have a problem sharing most of what I know or directing a person to a source to get their information. What this person did though was take that information I provided, made up a holster very similar to what I offer and offered it for 1/2 the cost I sell mine for. They sell it on a very popular gun forum. Kind of made me think I was cutting my own throat. My perspective now is that there are those out there who will do that, but there are a far greater number who don't.

I've gotten help from everyone I've contacted here on LW, without hesitation. I've asked for patterns, and drawings, and critiques. And I appreciate everyone's help.

[Hilly]

I don't think there is anything wrong with asking for help! We all need help at one time or another. Sharing our knowledge of techniques, methods and processes is what this forum is all about. But if the subject is proprietary, don't be surprised if the request is ignored! And you know what ?......no harm, no foul. I know that I'm willing to share what I've learned....I didn't learn everything all on my own....much was shared with me over the years.

Sharing ones knowledge, however, is very different than sharing your work. If you want to copy something that I do....I'll help you....after all, imitation is the purest form of flattery. But please don't ask me to send you a pattern I spent hours or days drawing for a customers project! I don't draw very well....it's hard for me...and I'm trying to get paid for my efforts. You may as well ask me for my pants because you can't find yours! Asking for a freebe is not the same as asking for help...and that's inappropriate.

Is it okay to ask someone to draw for you? Absolutely....perfectly acceptable...a mutual arrangement between two individuals. There's nothing wrong with that. However......if you really want to learn.......ask for a hand, not a hand-out!

Hidepouder, your drawing skills are fantastic! I look at the finger carving you do, which is really just "drawing" with your swivel knife, and I am amazed! I only wish I could be as artistically challenged as you.

[Hilly]

[soapbox]

I don't think asking for a pattern is a bad thing. I've done it myself, and the person I asked was gracious enough to share. I did make the promise to only use it for my own personal use, and not to sell. A promise I will keep. I also learned a few things along the way in constructing this project, and although I won't share his pattern, I will share what I have learned from it if I can help someone in the future.

[/soapbox]

[ttownfire]

I don't think you have much of a case if the item is "knocked off." Even if its damn near identical. Especially if you don't have some sort of protection on that design.

Look at the all the Chinese Knock-offs of sewing machines for example. If the major manufacturers thought they had a case, they would sue the pants off these Chinese companies. The simple fact is, most anything is damn hard to protect design wise and even harder if its simply a construction method on the front end. Meaning, its hard and expensive to get a patent, copyright in the first place. Then once you tally up the time in court and fees associated with fighting an infringement case, you're better off just walking away to design something else.

There is a reason why "first to market" is better than "protection." People reverse engineer things all the time for mass manufacture. In my opinion, you should just expect it and therefore constantly strive for better designs.

[GregGaub]

Simple answer to a simple question:

It doesn't hurt to ask. I don't think it's rude to ask at all. In fact, I'd say it's complimentary to ask for a pattern. It says that they admire the work and wish to replicate it.

Where rudeness comes in, as pointed out previously, is when the asker implies that it's the designer's duty to give out the pattern. It's rude to tell the person to give you the pattern. It's rude to get the pattern and show no gratitude. It's NOT rude to ask for it. If the designer wants to keep it to him/herself, then they say no, and that's the end of it. If the asker does anything but accept that answer, then you've got a jerk on your hands.

I'll give an example... a close friend of mine develops a wildly popular Palm OS app that is FREEware. He did it because he was passionate about software and the app was something he himself needed. He shared it with the community and they drank it in happily. At first, he accepted post cards as "payment" from anyone who felt so inclined, but even had to stop that because he had gotten enough to fill multiple boxes with post cards. Unfortunately, after a while, people began to feel entitled to his free work. Some people literally said that he OWED them/the community to add some feature or another, or to make a version that worked on whatever shiny new device they just started carrying. I'm sure you can guess what happened. He stopped developing the app. He stopped answering questions on the support forums for it. When people felt entitled and ungrateful is when he stopped giving.

There's nothing wrong with asking for something. HOW you ask and what you do with the response is the important part.

[Bree]

I think I will offer an opinion. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking. Indeed, I think it is wrong not to ask. Patterns for projects belong to the maker. Patterns within projects belong to the maker. The maker may or may not be willing to share. The maker's decision to share may well depend upon your intended use. One use may be fine while another may be forbidden by both the maker and the laws governing copyright.

Best practice is to state your intended purpose and ask the maker's permission. Abide by the maker's decision and respect his or her rights. You will never ever go wrong following this principle. It is really just an instantiation of the Golden Rule... Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

My $.02.