What Is The Correct Zero Length Position For A 441 Stitch Length Lever?

[amuckart]

I'm trying to get my 441 clone to have an accurate stitch length and sew in the same holes backwards and forwards. It only does this for some lengths.

I understand how to make the adjustment, but I'm curious as to what the correct position for the stitch length lever is at the zero point. Should the middle of the lever align with the mark, or should the top of the lever? The lever is pretty chunky and imprecise but I'd like to be able to accurately set a specific stitch length so I can pattern things so the stitches end up exactly at the corners.

This also applies to the max stitch length end, what part of the bar should align with the 11mm mark?

Is this correct

Or this:

Thanks.

[JLSleather]

That's gonna depend on how it was adjusted (or not adjusted). You gonna have to find out where YOURS is set up. Then, maybe a fine-tip marker on the metal marking that spot?

You'll get LOTS of pretty speeches about backstitching in the same holes, from a LOT of different places. I'm not sure why everyone tries so adamantly to avoid the question - other than they can't answer it. Truth is, that's been asked for years, INCLUDING on this site (do a search, you'll get an idea of how long this has been NOT answered).

Sorry, I know this doesn't help your immediate question. Just trying to save you a LOT of time searching, since some of us have already been there

[Constabulary]

I don´t have a 441 but I think the wedge on the lever should be aligned with the the "0" marking for zero feeding? And from there on back and forth stitchings should have the same length. If they don´t I would assume something is wrong with the machine - or not?

Edited March 7, 2015 by Constabulary

[amuckart]

That's gonna depend on how it was adjusted (or not adjusted). You gonna have to find out where YOURS is set up. Then, maybe a fine-tip marker on the metal marking that spot?

The machine has never been properly adjusted. I got it straight from China, and mostly got it going back when I got it, then I got sick and couldn't work on it for ages. I'm getting back to it now and starting from scratch because it was never quite right.

There should be one correct position, irrespective of the way the particular machine is setup otherwise the max stitch length in forward/reverse won't be correct. Having stared at this for a while now I'm going with the centre of the bar, not the top.

You'll get LOTS of pretty speeches about backstitching in the same holes, from a LOT of different places. I'm not sure why everyone tries so adamantly to avoid the question - other than they can't answer it. Truth is, that's been asked for years, INCLUDING on this site (do a search, you'll get an idea of how long this has been NOT answered).

Sorry, I know this doesn't help your immediate question. Just trying to save you a LOT of time searching, since some of us have already been there

Too late, but thanks anyway

I think there are a couple of reasons the question might not have been answered yet. It's not a trivial set of adjustments to make, and it's part of the setup that resellers do when they get the machines from China to make sure they're working just right when they go out the door, and that's a major part of their value-add proposition.

I don´t have a 441 but I think the wedge on the lever should be aligned with the the "0" marking for zero feeding? And from there on back and forth stitchings should have the same length. If they don´t I would assume something is wrong with the machine - or not?

That's pretty much right, but the wedge is rounded and not terribly accurate.

I've run with the "screw the adjustment in as far as it'll go and that's zero" approach, which seems to be working for now.

[Constabulary]

Direct from China? Seems you have learned the lesson the hard way (no offence).

I think Leather Machine Co. has a Video on Youtube on how to adjust the Cobra machines. Maybe this will help you.

[amuckart]

Direct from China? Seems you have learned the lesson the hard way (no offence).

None taken. It was a calculated risk, and one I'm happy with. I'm not a professional who needs the machine for production work and I fix machines for fun so sinking time into getting it sorted isn't an issue.

As it was I got the machine with a full set of feet & plates, for less than half what it would have cost me to import a machine from the USA. That's thousands of NZ$. For that money I'm willing to spend some time sorting it out and deal with a certain amount of mucking around with the local importer.

I think Leather Machine Co. has a Video on Youtube on how to adjust the Cobra machines. Maybe this will help you.

I'm setting the machine up from scratch so I'm a bit beyond the basic tension and stitch length stuff :-)

[Constabulary]

Me too - its a hobby for me and I absolutely understand your point - It´s not that I haven´t had this idea but I honesty don`t dare to order from China!

I´m not a mechanical embryo but setting up this type of machine from zero isn`t something I would dare!

I´m sure I have seen a video where Steve was explaining several adjustments on the Cobra 4 but don´t know where it was. I remember he explained something like how to line up screws with markings or so (view from the backside) but I honestly don´t know where I have seen the video.

[amuckart]

I'm setting the machine up from scratch so I'm a bit beyond the basic tension and stitch length stuff :-)

I was wrong. I found Cobra Steve's video and it showed me most of what I needed. Thanks for the pointer Constabulary!

[Constabulary]

you are welcome. Of course youtube.... I wasn´t thinking.

So your machine is running now?

[JLSleather]

So, now that you figured it out.. share it with the rest of us? Which of your pictures above is correct?

[amuckart]

you are welcome. Of course youtube.... I wasn´t thinking.

So your machine is running now?

Mostly, but not 100%. Interestingly adjusting it in accordance with Steve's video did not work. I don't know why, I thought Cobra and Cowboy machines were mechanically identical.

The video gave me what I needed to stare at the mechanism while cycling the machine which let me work out what bits did what. Along with the engineering manual I've got the machine sewing cleanly forward and backwards into the same holes but the stitch length is out by about -10-15% across the board. At 11mm I get just under 10mm stitches, and it stops feeding by a needle width at about the 3-4mm setting.

I think I know why this is but I need to play with it some more to be sure.

The correct point for zero on my machine is the centre of the adjustment bar.

Edited March 9, 2015 by amuckart

[Docado]

Hello Amuckart,

Do you by chance have an Artisan Toro 4000 series manual?

I found it on here somewhere. It may be of some help to you.

Docado

[amuckart]

Hello Amuckart,

Do you by chance have an Artisan Toro 4000 series manual?

I found it on here somewhere. It may be of some help to you.

Docado

I didn't, but google found it quickly enough. Thank you for the pointer.

It looks like a rework of the Juki engineers' manual.

[TinkerTailor]

To re-open and perhaps permanently close an old thread:

So, after a little experimenting with my Techsew 5100, which was sewing 8spi in forward and 6spi in reverse out of the box,

I just now backstitched 16 stitches around a curve in the same holes.

I think the stitch-length issues everyone has is due to poor casting tolerances in all the clones in the machine body around the stitch adjuster throwing the angle off. I also believe this is why there are so many issues with the bobbin winder across all the clones. In some machines, the castings are correct and all is good. On others angles and things may be out of wack creating the problems.

My fix? I put 4 pieces of beer box cardboard shim stacked up under the top edge of the stitch adjuster plate on the front of the machine. I loosened the screws and played around with shim thicknesses, test stitching until it was right. Seems to be bang on at most stitch lengths. I measured the thickness the stack of cardboard, for my machine and I need a 0.100" shim. I will make a metal shim for there right shortly. As far as I am concerned, as long as the crucial parts are working, If a shim is needed for a finicky setting like this, so be it.

If I paid double for a real-deal Juki, I would expect it to be perfect. Since I have a clone, I am a little more flexible, as one should be.

I am not a champagne taste, beer budget kinda guy.

This only took 20 mins to do and any munkey can do it without messing with any internal settings.

Edited November 1, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[TinkerTailor]

I am going to start a brand new thread tonight on this topic, including a short tutorial and a few pics. I would also like to start a list of the shim thicknesses that work for different people to see if this is something that is variable from machine to machine, or universal?

[Wizcrafts]

I am going to start a brand new thread tonight on this topic, including a short tutorial and a few pics. I would also like to start a list of the shim thicknesses that work for different people to see if this is something that is variable from machine to machine, or universal?

For my CB4500 it took a standard washer with a 1/4" inside diameter, to correct the fwd/bkwd stitch lengths, plus sometimes re-matching the bottom of the inside foot to the needle making contact with the leather. I'm guessing the washer is about 1/16" thick, or a little less. I frequently recommend this trick, which I was given by Bob Kovar.

[TinkerTailor]

For my CB4500 it took a standard washer with a 1/4" inside diameter, to correct the fwd/bkwd stitch lengths, plus sometimes re-matching the bottom of the inside foot to the needle making contact with the leather. I'm guessing the washer is about 1/16" thick, or a little less. I frequently recommend this trick, which I was given by Bob Kovar.

Yeah, I saw one of your posts with this trick right after i posted this. Same idea, different approach. A washer around the screw is good, and nice and permanent, I basically found the same solution a different way independantly. Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ.

If yours was 1/16, it was a little more than half as thick as the one i used. I just slid cardboard under the top edge. Didnt even need to take out the screw. Made experimenting with thicknesses really fast. Screws have this magnet built in that attracts them to the dustiest corner of the shop the second the last thread is clear. If i can avoid totally removing a screw for anything, I will.

[Art]

Back in the "old" days, you would see flat washers on the top screw (under the wedge) on probably 50% of machines, even Jukis. A good setup would require some adjustment to align the wedge for zero length. Some manufacturers try to get the wedge right, and many machines require zero shimming, but machines are made of stamped and cast parts with error margins that can (but usually don't) add up in the same direction and cause the kind of things you may be experiencing. I have two Highleads that do not have this problem, but the next one may require a little help. Remember that a 441 is kind of the "mack truck" of sewing machines, The clearances and tolerances in the "mack truck" are a lot larger than in a Ford F-150. What I am getting at is that if you set the machine up to specifications, the tolerances can still add-up to some slop. The dealer will have a competent mechanic who works on the same series of machines every day who will know what to look for and know how to compensate. This is why you will hear folks here tell newbies to buy from a dealer. If you have some mechanical aptitude, there is nothing in a 441 that even approaches rocket science. A service manual (different than a users manual) is the greatest help.

Art

[TinkerTailor]

If you have some mechanical aptitude, there is nothing in a 441 that even approaches rocket science. A service manual (different than a users manual) is the greatest help.

Art

It is pretty simple, but with old style mechanisms. Shaft collars, setscrews, belt drives and babbit bearings are 150+ year old tech. Most industries went away from these types of mechanisms 75 years ago because they are hard to setup and maintain. The adjustability compensated for lower tolerances of the day. The problem most people have is that the machines don't come with a usb diagnostic port...... Or to put it another way, it is a different thought process and methodology diagnosing these old style machines. Fine tuning ANYTHING with a screwdriver and your ears/finger sensations is a dying art. I diagnose so many problems in seconds on bicycles by sound and the sensations i get from the parts i am touching. I build wheels by plucking the spokes and making them sound the same, like tuning a guitar. All the young guys use a spoke tension meter. More than once i have won money off of them betting my wheels are straighter than theirs. 10 years building wheels and not one has come back. Can't say the same for others.

Btw, a neat trick i use sometimes to pinpoint bearing problems is to use the wrenchoscope.....I take a wrench, and place one end of it on the machine/bike and cup my hands around the other. I listen to my cupped hands and place the wrench at different points on the bike to listen for things like knocks, grinding bearings, etc. It was shown to me at a young age by an old farmer i worked for.

Edited November 2, 2015 by TinkerTailor

[dikman]

I've done the same trick using a screwdriver, place the blade on the object under scrutiny and stick the handle against your ear-hole! (Don't try it the other way around, not a good idea).