Adler 267 373Gk

[Ole South]

I could use some help sorting the timing/setup on my Adler 267-373GK. I picked it up used but it has little noticeable wear, The hook and basket are snug with virtually no play. The needle bar is tight and the bed only shows some scissor rash, no feed path paint wear.

I've been working on getting it timed correctly. The manual states the hook should be centered on needle at 1.8mm - 2.0mm (depending on subclass) rise after BDC. This doesn't come close to matching Constabulary's 1.6mm above the needle eye (hook too high). I get random skipped stitches with book settings but no drops with Constabulary's timing. The needle does barely deflect as the hook shield passes but is within specs for needle/hook spacing. Unfortunately, all I have are 180/24 needles but the forums indicate this needle will work in this machine and I don't want to move the hook assy until things are resolved.

Okay finally, here is what I think the problem is. I get serious loop resistance about 4 o'clock on the bobbin case (needle is 12 o'clock) after the hook catches the thread. After carefully watching and comparing a couple machines it appears the thread take up arm is rising too soon after hitting it's lowest point. This pulls the thread tight before passing the apex(?) of the bobbin case arc i.e. 4 o'clock instead of 6 or 7 o'clock, The loop flows easily and smoothly around the bobbin case on all my other machines.

What determines take up arm timing? Needle bar height? Am I on the right track here or out in the weeds?

thanks

[Constabulary]

Are you probably using the wrong needle type? Adler 267 needs 134-35 (DPx35) needles afaik. A size 180/24 needles is too thick I´d say. I think 140/22 is the max. recommended by Adler.

I have not worked on a 267 yet. The 1.6mm above the needle eye is where the hook meets the needle scarf on 111 and 227 (Singer 153) type machines with a 135x17 (DPx35) needle in general. This describes the point where the hook catches the loop approx. at its widest point. The rise after BDC at 111 and 227 machines is usually is 2.5mm.

I don´t know how much internal technical difference is between the 111 and the the 267. But seems your manual says 1.8mm - 2.00mm after BDC so I would assume the needle is the problem.

[Ole South]

Gahh, needle systems... so far every time I think I have a handle on them I find I don't.

So, DPx35, 134-(x??)35 and 135x17?!!?

I have on-hand:

135x16DIA, DPx16DIA, 125/20PD

and

135x16DIA, DPX16DIA 180/24

and

135x17, DPx17 130/21

and

135x17, DPx17 90/14

*Sigh* The 180's were what the previous owner was trying to use, probably why he'd only used the machine 5 or 6 times. I'll order some needles and start over. Are the 135x16 (DPX16) longer than the 134-35 (DPx35)?

btw, Trox indicated he's used 180's intermittently in his Adler (if I've read his post right) http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=41621 (I sure wish I could paste a url on this forum.)

Thanks Const!

[Constabulary]

Yah - the different needle systems suck - I fortunately can use 135x17 / 135x16 on all my machines except the 133K.

The 135x17 (for fabric) or 135x16 (for leather) are slightly longer that the 135-34 so you probably have to rise your needle bar a tiny bit if the machine is setup for 135-34.

Well it is possible that your 267 is setup for 180 needles but I think they are factory set to 140/22. When you are using thicker needles you may need a feed dog with wider hole (because of thicker needle + thicker thread) and maybe have to move the hook saddle a tiny bit to the right to give the thicker thread more space to slip through the gap between the small tongue of the bobbin basket and needle plate. You know what I mean?

Maybe the former owner has set it up for 180 needles already - I dunno.

I´d also check the setting of your bobbin case opener. It ensures that the thread can slip through w/o problems.

EDIT:

TROX used Tkt 15 thread - that is about 207 in the US and this thread needs a 160/23 needle.

You are using a 180/24 needle so I´d say it is too thick for your machine.

Try your 130/21 needle with a 138 or 92 thread - maybe that works better.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Constabulary

[Ole South]

I don't think this machine has ever been set up right. Too little usage wear. What IS worn are timing path screw heads!!

The Adler service book doesn't make sense. It has you set the hook to needle timing FIRST. Then needle bar height. If loop timing is based on stroke vs loop length I don't see how this works. There is a timing ring machined into the lower part of the needle bar that is never referenced anywhere in the Service Book. I'm wondering if the GK373 is different somehow. SB doesn't include the GK373 as one of the many subclasses.

I found an old one page brochure from Keystone for the GK but can't date it. The DA website only has a single page brochure that identifies the GK373 as an upholstery machine. All the other 273 modules have at least 3 pages.

I'm using 138 thread and the thinner needle sews worse. I think your right. Until needle bar length based on needle bar height + needle length is set properly... this machine will never sew right. Probably why it has so little use.

Btw, SB has Vertical and Horizontal hook timing ref. figures are mixed up, both in German and English. But it says to rotate the "large" gear to time the hook. I can't get it to move on the main drive shaft when both set screws are loosened nor can they be easily removed. I can loosen the smaller gear on the hook shaft to change hook/needle timing but those screws can't be removed easily either and it doesn't spin smoothly on its shaft! I fear people may have buggered up the shafts and screws trying to make this piglet sing! :\

Edited March 8, 2015 by Ole South

[Ole South]

Found some 134-35 (16/100) needles locally today. Re-timed the Adler with the correct needle and even though the loop still goes snug at 4 o'clock with #92 thread ...it sews. The hook lines up only 1 or 2mm below the top of the scarf; that seems kinda high to me.. I've got size 22 and 23 needles coming; I'm guessing I'll still have the same problem with larger diameter thread.

I found this while looking for an alternative method of setting needle bar height (the Adler Service Book is painfully vague as to where exactly the hook should line up in reference to the needle eye) :

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCgQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usapr.com%2Ffiles%2FPosts%2F1%2Ftiming.pdf&ei=P0v-VPL3F8q_ggShv4DwAg&usg=AFQjCNFGsnjO4nocYzDhlhRbQJ6J6Z70qA&sig2=p7G4DNISiXTkkBSyCtGfEA&bvm=bv.87611401,d.eXY

It doesn't reference a specific machine model but the pictures appear to be a Singer. 'Think this would work as a generic adjustment?

[Trox]

Hi, do your machine have a horizontal or vertical hook? Your machine is a Kochs Adler 267; made before the company changed in to Dürkopp Adler in the 1990 ties. I cannot find any documents on it right now, but I have seen them somewhere. Anyway, If you call A DA dealer he will tell you the correct needle system for your subclass. I have not seen other needle systems for the 267 than 134 or the longer 134-35, who is the correct needle system for the regular -373. I do not remember all these subclasses any more, but DA have the documents for it. You must first find the needle system and the adjusted needle size before you can adjust it according to the DA manual. Nm 180 is the biggest needle in this needle system and not the adjusted needle size, thats more likely size Nm 130 or 140.

Tor

[Ole South]

Horizontal hook. How do you date the Adlers? Simply pre and post DA?

Thanks Trox

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

Needle system for 267-373 is 134-35

See attached image cut from DAs sale brochure.

[Ole South]

Thanks Gregg, do you stock parts?

[shoepatcher]

Old South,

if your machine is a 267GK373, then the hook is a vertical hook. The 267HO373 was a horizontal hook variation of the 267. Not to cut out Gregg but Weaver Leather stocks parts for the 267GK373. Ask for Allen. Can you get us a few pics of the machine and the hook area?

glenn

[Wizcrafts]

Old South,

if your machine is a 267GK373, then the hook is a vertical hook. The 267HO373 was a horizontal hook variation of the 267. Not to cut out Gregg but Weaver Leather stocks parts for the 267GK373. Ask for Allen. Can you get us a few pics of the machine and the hook area?

glenn

I haven't seen Allen posting replies here. But I do see quite a few from Gregg, including in this very topic. Doesn't he deserve to get a sale for his efforts?

[Ole South]

Thanks all! I assumed horizontal meant the bobbin assy is oriented horizontally and the hook path rotates like a dinner plate. Vertical like a wall clock. I'm guessing this is wrong. My hook is the same as Alesandro's in. "Adler 267 Problems"

As far as parts.... it's only a couple washers and a screw. But coming from a technical service background.... multiple sourcing is a blessing, especially with offshore units. It's always good to know you have a backup.

[Trox]

Hi Ole South, its the other way around. Perhaps the letter "GK", (not used in the newer DA 267 machines) just is German for "hook safety clutch". I once had a complete subclass list over the Adler 267, now I cant find it anymore. Then you just use the parameters for the regular 267-373.

I agree with Wiz, why don't you check with Gregg. He is a DA dealer and member of these forum, he has allot of nice sewing machine motors /accessories too.

The first dating is easy Adler and Dürkopp merged in to DA in 1990. Then there are several documents available online, like the company`s export lists and old technical documents (manuals , leaflet etc) in the blog of Thomas Brinkhoff (head of spare parts DA) The World of DA parts http://sew24.blogspot.no/p/downloads.html among others.

The regular -373 perform best with its (system 134-35) sizes from Nm 120 to 140, thats what its made for. I have used size 100 and 160, but thats top and bottom (without adjusting for a bigger or smaller needle size, that is)

Tor

[Trox]

Gahh, needle systems... so far every time I think I have a handle on them I find I don't.

So, DPx35, 134-(x??)35 and 135x17?!!?

I have on-hand:

135x16DIA, DPx16DIA, 125/20PD

and

135x16DIA, DPX16DIA 180/24

and

135x17, DPx17 130/21

and

135x17, DPx17 90/14

*Sigh* The 180's were what the previous owner was trying to use, probably why he'd only used the machine 5 or 6 times. I'll order some needles and start over. Are the 135x16 (DPX16) longer than the 134-35 (DPx35)?

btw, Trox indicated he's used 180's intermittently in his Adler (if I've read his post right) http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=41621 (I sure wish I could paste a url on this forum.)

Thanks Const!

Hi, in the post you referring to; I am writing that have used thread size tkt 15, that equals to US size TEX 180 and sewn 11 mm belt leather as a test. That must not be confused with needle size 180, the needle size I`ve used was Nm 160. (1,6 mm tick) And It was Amman Serfil polyester thread, I believe it equals to TEX 180 in polyester and Nylon. However, these threads sizes change from place to place and material they are made of, its hard stay on top of it.

Again, this was just a test, I normally uses a heavy stitcher for thread from tkt 15 and upwards.

Tor

[Ole South]

So Vertical/Horizontal is how the hook itself is oriented. A Patcher or 15-91 is a Horizontal hook and a drop in bobbin is gonna be a vertical hook... got it!

160 would get me to 207 thread... that's all I need for now. This machine sews great on short runs with a 16/100 needle and #92 bonded poly or nylon thread through chrome, suede and 4/5oz veg. Waiting on other needles to arrive to test them.

As far as needle bar height adj. Is that USAPR link above a fair guide for any machine? If sew (<-- ha, see the pun there?!!?) then my needle bar is too high by about 2mm. The Adler Service book only says: "Loosen screw o and adjust the height of the needle bar accordingly." I don't see what "accordingly" is.

I am still not comfortable with the loop pulling tight around the basket BEFORE it reaches halfway around. This appears to be a take-up arm timing issue... any thoughts?

Edited March 11, 2015 by Ole South

[Trox]

Your machine has a vertical rotating hook, the patcher Singer 29K has a vertical shuttle hook. The Pfaff 335 have a horizontal rotating hook and Juki TSC 441/ Adler 205-370 machines have a horizontal shuttle hook, to take well known examples. I do not know the Singer class 15, is that a sewing machine? most be a domestic one then. I would not know what hook it has.

And again, a size Nm 160 needle would not take you to Tex 207, but to Tex 180. (Depending of material of course,but you might need a Nm 180 needle for Tex 207 = tkt 13)

You do not buy a sewing machine and use it on its maximum limits all day, these are machines for the upholstery class and not heavy leather stitcher's. Its like your car do 100 miles an hour on full speed, but how long will it run if that was the only intended use for it. I do not think the warranty will replace your engine if the pistons came true the hood. If you looking to sew with those heavy threads on wegtan leather, by yourself an heavy stitcher like a 441 clone, or new budget CB 3200 triple feed leather stitcher. Perhaps an inexpensive bottom feed heavy stitcher like a CB 2500. These machines are constructed to sew thick material, with coarse threads and heavy thread tension. Something the upholstery class will not do (with a few exceptions machines like: Adler 220, Singer 144 B8BL and Juki LG 158; who are more expensive than a 441 clone anyway).

The Adler 267 machines are better quality than most, but still only a large hook upholstery class machine, (smallest DA machine in its class, biggest have XXL hooks like the new 867 and take Tex 270).

Tor

[Ole South]

Yep Singer 15-91=domestic machine, I only mentioned it as a reference.

Going by Toledo Sewing chart

Http://www.tolindsewmach.com/thread-chart.html

The Adler + 23/160 needle should handle 207 Tkt15 thread for occasional use. 22/140 and 138 Tkt20 and 16/100 #69 Tkt40 would be my more common setup.

For me, using 207 thread would be entirely cosmetic. I'm not planning on doing 3/8" stacks of veg tan on this machine.

Thanks for your knowledge of these machines. It's a valuable resource.

[Wizcrafts]

I have a 15 class and it definitely has a horizontal axis hook, just like the 31 series I also own. You snap in bobbin cases on the left lower side, under the bobbin access slide plate.

Vertical hook machines have bobbins that drop in from the top. Horizontal axis machines have bobbins that fit into bobbin cases that snap into openings in a frame, under the machine. 441 and 205 type machines have bobbin cases that are attached permanently with a pin. They open with a spring latch to allow the bobbin to be removed and replaced.

[Trox]

Yes you might use what needle you like but still TKT 15 is only Tex 180 and not 207 in polyester, as in my example. (TKT 207 or 210 is TKT 13). I see this in Cowboy Bob`s web page

You might use a 160 needle for tex 207, but it does not make it in to a tkt 15 size in polyester. Tex is a weight measurement and Nm is a length measurement. Ticket numbers are the manufacturers reference numbers unique to each thread type and all threads types has different weight. Therefore, ticket number are different for bonded nylon, nylon, cotton, corspun cotton, lubricated polyester and regular polyester (to mention some). Thats why I told you the threads types it applied for was polyester in this case A very easy calculation based on three unknowns, its a jungle. Especially when we cannot agree on what system to use on basic length, weight and numbers. I think somebody has to decide for us, because we will never agree on whats best.

[Ole South]

Needles and thread all sorted out. With Greg's help over at Keystone I've replaced the ancient clutch motor with a new servo and the Adler runs great.

The bobbin case/thread issue was caused by a "slipped" gear. The bevel gear on the vertical bobbin shaft was a mm or so low allowing the bobbin mechanism to rise as it was driven by the main shaft gear. Moved it up removing the vertical slop and all is well.