Adler 467 For Venator

[gottaknow]

If that is a bottom feed sump, if there is water in it it would be sucked up to the pump first as oil floats on water. I wonder if the previous seller topped it up with oil on top of the water and ran it with water lube for a while. Because there was at least water up there, at slow speeds the machine has been able to work for a while.

It's very plausible that water was in the oil for quite some time. How it got in there, I have no idea. I believe the screw pump for the top shaft is probably corroded and blocked. I'm going to drain the sump this week and fill it with clean oil. I'll save the old oil in a jar and let it settle out. Nears as I can tell, the intake is below the normal oil level, but closer to the top then the bottom. Because a screw type pump will always be in motion, it's possible if I can get to it with a .010 guitar string I can unclog it. I have 4 guitars and I use the old strings for lots of things. I won't spend a lot time on that, more than likely I'll develope a new manual oiling system for the top shaft. I have a short week coming up in my factory, I'll be flying to our two plants in Seattle to address some machine issues.

Regards, Eric

Edited May 11, 2015 by gottaknow

[venator]

Back when all this started the owner of the machine said it worked fine when he got it.

I think it is unreasonable to buy a used machine in order to save money and then assume it is in like new condition.

I agree with you, in purchasing a used machine I did not expect to receive a new machine. However the machine was not only sold as used but advertised as "reconditioned", in my mind this was not a reconditioned machine.

When I purchase something as reconditioned I am under the impression that it has been cleaned effectively (clearly this has not due to the corrosion etc) that all parts of it work properly including such items as the lubrication system (clearly not the case) that all parts are correct for the machine (clearly not since at least one part required mechanical modification such as grinding).

While the machine did work when we received it we put less than 5 hours of very very light use on it before we started to have problems, it received less use than I would expect one of Eric's machines to receive in less than 30 minutes of run time before it started to act up.

While I would have no problem if a part had broken, it is used after all and such things cannot be predicted, I have issue with a machine that falls so badly out of alignment that it requires quite a few hours of labour from a skilled mechanic to get it working again. I also take issue with a machine being sold as reconditioned that does not have a functioning lubrication system, or the correct parts.

If I was paying for these repairs I'm sure it would cost me less to simply sell the machine as scrap and purchase a brand new machine in it's place and that is what I find totally unacceptable about the entire situation.

Had I purchased from an individual I would simply say "Caveat emptor" and move on but since this is supposedly a respected retailer that specializes in such things I feel there is a higher standard expected, one they clearly have not met.

[gottaknow]

Ok, got my traveling out of the way for now, so spending time with the oil system for the top end. So far, I've determined the pump on the bottom shaft that used to supply oil to the top end is corroded and will be of no use. I plugged it with a piece of brazing rod and tucked it out of the way of in the top arm.

I have many parts machines in which to harvest oil components from. Wicks, tubes, reservoirs, etc. I have taken a lot of pictures today, and I'll edit and upload them as time permits. I'm thinking the new oil system will be comprised of some oil holes drilled in the top cover, and perhaps a reservoir with a wick system for other components. If this machine has any kind of future, the top shaft and all of it's components need a supply of oil.

I love being in my shop at work when nobody is here. This place is using pretty noisy. Rather than work, this is relaxing for me, so don't anyone feel sorry for me...my wife's working all day as it is. I do love what I do.

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

I´d also love being in your shop when nobody is there. I´m sure I will discoverer some interesting things.

[gottaknow]

Ok, so as I covered before, there is a lot of corrosion in the main oil sump. I still don't know how it got there. What I do know, is the majority of the corrosion is within the areas exposed to the oil. The sump itself is covered. Most of the time, you can scrape the rust off. In this machine, the corrosion is of the pitting variety. It's eaten into the metal. The exception to that is the bronze bushings, they of course contain no iron.

I drained the oil out of the machine into a glass jar. It was obvious right away that there was water in the sump. Needless to say, the screw type oil pump is not working. The pictures below will show why the pump failed. Since the broken sight glass is part of the oil system, it's done for as well. Today my goal was to see the extent of the damage, test the pump,(failed) and proceed with a new oil system for the top shaft. The pictures below pretty much tell the story. Aside from adding water with the oil, the only other possibility is the vent tube that angles down into the sump. It's about a 5/16" metal tube. The vent tube isn't unique to enclosed oil systems. This one is a very bad design. The entry port is on the back edge of the casting.

If a cleaner was used even just a few times on the stand or machine, it would run right down into the sump. A chemical along with the water would explain the high level of corrosion and unusual pitting. The pitting is also on the aluminum, the cast iron, and the hardened steel. I wish I had the history of this machine. A better design would have the vent entry port pointed down under the head.

Regards, Eric

[Uwe]

I look forward to seeing what alternate system you come up with for lubricating this machine. I wonder if the original system was really suitable for sewing really slow, at about 1/10th the rated speed. Perhaps the lubrication system works okay for sewing leather at medium high speed like in those youtube videos where they sew sofa covers or similar things and only slow down at the seams. My leather sewing speed is 1-3 stitches per second at most, and I somewhat doubt that the spiral screw channel oil delivery system would work well at that speed even if it were working perfectly, without any corrosion.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Uwe

[gottaknow]

I look forward to seeing what alternate system you come up with for lubricating this machine. I wonder if the original system was really suitable for sewing really slow, at about 1/10th the rated speed. Perhaps the lubrication system works okay for sewing leather at medium high speed like in those youtube videos where they sew sofa covers or similar things and only slow down at the seams. My leather sewing speed is 1-3 stitches per second at most, and I somewhat doubt that the spiral screw channel oil delivery system would work well at that speed even if it were working perfectly, without any corrosion.

It's hard to say Uwe. I've seen it go both ways. It all depends on whether or not the pump loses it's prime after sitting a while. I wish there wasn't any corrosion so I could actually test its output. I do think that any machine with a pump for the top shaft should be run at high speed every so often, like winding a bobbin. It's easy on most machines to simply remove the end cover and check for signs of oil. I would encourage everyone that does hobby sewing with an industrial machine to check this. You should be able to pinch a wick and get oily fingers. If not, I would sure start oiling by hand every place you see a wick and then some. I would venture to say, over a 35 year career that every machine I've seen ruined started with an oil issue. We wouldn't dream of driving our cars without oil.

Regards, Eric

[LumpenDoodle2]

Thanks for the info on this thread, you really know what are doing, and you obviously care about your work. Sadly, not everyone does.

I was fortunate to pick up a Consew 210 for £30, and getting the timing, etc right, and knowing what parts to replace, was a very steep learning curve for me. It now runs well, and will only be replaced when I'm in a position to afford a decent walking foot machine.

I look forward to the next instalment.

[gottaknow]

So today, I mapped out the required locations for oil on the top shaft, and the end of the head where the needle bar resides. I removed most of the wicks that were fed from the failed shaft pump. Because the end of the head was oiled from those wicks, gravity will carry oil back to them.

I spent some time thinking about the best way to oil this part of the machine. I kept coming back to something Singer stood by going way back. If you manually oil the critical parts each day you use the machine, there's nothing to fail. It also ensures that if a long time goes between use, gravity won't drain everything and there's no pump to fail or under perform at slow speed. The top cover of this machine lends itself to some strategic small oil holes, painted red. That was Singers universal language for "oil here". It also gives the next owner the ability to oil the machine without an explanation.

The return oil wicks will still take care of any over-oiling issues. Sometimes the simplest ways are the best. No covers will have to be removed since the end of the machine will be fed from the top. I also figured out today that the break in the top oiling system, (sight glass area) came before the contamination of the lower oil sump. There is no rust on that end of the machine. If there were, this machine may be a total loss, depending on the extent of the pitting.

What's left is drilling and painting the new holes, flushing the lower sump one more time, and more test sewing to make sure things are good still. Oh, I still have to make a new tension unit for the bobbin winder. The bad news is the lower shaft seals will continue to leak and the timing belt worries me because of the oil. It will be up to the owner to try and keep it wiped clean.

It would be interesting to price out all the new components to rebuild the oil system the way it once was. I have done that on certain specialty machines, but your average industrial isn't worth the expense or labor. To get this machine back to original would require removing most of the larger shafts. With the pitting, some would have to be replaced. Of course it would be fun, but not cost effective.

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

oh man - when I see all this it once again confirms my opinion that older machines are often enough the better choice - at least for my purposes.

@Venator

have you ever contacted Nick-O-Sew to tell them what is going on with the machine you bought from them?

[gottaknow]

oh man - when I see all this it once again confirms my opinion that older machines are often enough the better choice - at least for my purposes.

There's a lot wisdom there, especially for the hobbyist. Automatic oiling systems are great for factories and upholstery shops that sew at higher speed. Used production machines that find their way to the hobbyist can be trouble as far as the oiling systems go. That's why I made the choice to convert the top end to a manually oiled system. If you don't use the machine for 3 months, oil it up and you're good to go. One of my personal machines is a Singer 111 needle feed. All manually oiled. It's been stored for 4 years but I know after a quick oiling, it'd be ready to go.

On another note, here's my shop. There's an outer part where we rebuild machines and do major repairs, and the inner shop where all the tools are. I do have a bench that you can't see behind the tool chest where on occasion I'll work on just a head. We get really busy during the week, so first thing Monday morning, my apprentice gets to clean and put away everything...paying his dues so to speak.

Regards, Eric

[gottaknow]

I've been able to find time to drill holes in the top cover so this machine can be kept oiled. I'll follow up with pictures when I can. I've been spending a fair amount of time in our Seattle factories in the past few weeks. I still need to smooth up the holes and paint them. After that's all done I can put everything back together and do the final sew off. It's been quite the process. Oh, I'll do another oil change too.

Regards, Eric

[venator]

Sorry I dropped off the face of the earth regarding this, I've been a bit overwhelmed by the rest of my life lately.

Thanks again for the work you're putting in on this, it looks like you've made some great progress and your help is still very much appreciated on it.

Also my offer of a free custom shirt for all your help still stands. . .

How's the progress now?

[gottaknow]

Hi stranger. It seems the longer I tinker with your machine, the better it's getting. I'm in our Seattle factory this week, but when I get back I'll post some pics of my latest sewing. It's sewing two ply of 8-9 oz. bridle leather with no skipping or thread breakage. It could really use a new hook, but I'm not sure I'd invest the money in that. As for the oil, the holes are all drilled in the right places and I've oiled it to see if I have dry spots after sewing. Before I send it back, I want to have done enough sewing to give you an accurate, honest evaluation. At this point, I believe the machine is usable and will produce a nice stitch. I've been using T135 bonded nylon top and bottom with a size 22 needle. It seems to like that combination. I put some T208 through it which it didn't like that well. I hope to get you some pics this weekend. I've been traveling every week for the last 6 weeks, mainly training the handful of mechanics we have.

Regards, Eric

[venator]

So we've moved into the new place in Toronto. So when you're ready to send it back let me know and ill fire you the cost and new address.

[gottaknow]

Sounds good. I'll get it crated proper. I need to write some oiling instructions out along with a few other things to help you have an easier time with it including your limitations with thread and leather thickness. It could use a new hook, but I'd only replace it with an original and given the oil issues, I wouldn't invest the cost. It'll still sew plenty and I'll include some samples. Glad you got moved!

Regards, Eric

[venator]

So just to let people know as this has kind of dropped away from consciousness:

I received the machine back in October (I had moved to Toronto from Edmonton across the summer) but only just uncrated it yesterday as I had been in North and South Carolina for a few weeks.

So far the machine is operating significantly better than it ever has, it runs smoothly, it sews well, no longer breaks threads at every reverse etc.

I can't say too much how thrilled I am with all the work that gottaknow put in on my machine, it's been a huge difference and it's made the difference between selling a machine that cost me almost $2k for scrap and being able to use it again.

Thank you so much.

[gottaknow]

You are most welcome.

Regards, Eric

[Darren Brosowski]

I like to think of owning a sewing machine in terms of owning a car.

Learning to use it is equivalent to learning to drive.

Cleaning and oiling is equivalent to washing and polishing a car

Changing needles and knowing when to change a needle is the same as car tyres.

Timing and minor adjustment is comparable to changing oil and oil filter in a car - very simple when clearly explained.

As with cars some owners are happy to pay someone else to do everything for them.

I tend to find that the people who have the least problems are the ones who want to understand how and why the machine works. I know it sounds silly but sewing machines "talk" to you - when things are not quite right they start to sound different - and the experienced user will start to sense when something is not quite right and find the problem before it becomes expensive.

I like going through machines in the forum and hopefully take some of the mystery out of industrial machines. It can be really discouraging and even the cause of some leaving the enjoyment of leather work because of a machine issue. That, and the costs associated with having them adjusted and repaired. I've always believed that most folks can learn their machines well enough to make basic adjustments and troubleshoot problems, not detracting from the hobby or even a small business. Nothing worse than getting half way through a project and having something come up. As I've said before, I make a really good living as a head mechanic in a factory. My only compensation is hoping that I might help some folks solve problems.

A wise man (dad) once told me that if you want to learn something, find someone who does it better and then pay attention. I was so impressed when I first joined the site the level of knowledge that was here and the willingness to help. I've been able to build my leather working skills by reading and practicing. Sewing machines are no different.

Regards, Eric

[Darren Brosowski]

In Australia a dealer selling a used machine must has to warrant that the machine is "fit and proper for the purpose for which it is sold" and here the customer would have the right to demand full refund or replacement.

Mistakes happen and things can go wrong - that is life - but in this case reconditioned appears to mean that they put a new needle in it........

I agree with you, in purchasing a used machine I did not expect to receive a new machine. However the machine was not only sold as used but advertised as "reconditioned", in my mind this was not a reconditioned machine.

When I purchase something as reconditioned I am under the impression that it has been cleaned effectively (clearly this has not due to the corrosion etc) that all parts of it work properly including such items as the lubrication system (clearly not the case) that all parts are correct for the machine (clearly not since at least one part required mechanical modification such as grinding).

While the machine did work when we received it we put less than 5 hours of very very light use on it before we started to have problems, it received less use than I would expect one of Eric's machines to receive in less than 30 minutes of run time before it started to act up.

While I would have no problem if a part had broken, it is used after all and such things cannot be predicted, I have issue with a machine that falls so badly out of alignment that it requires quite a few hours of labour from a skilled mechanic to get it working again. I also take issue with a machine being sold as reconditioned that does not have a functioning lubrication system, or the correct parts.

If I was paying for these repairs I'm sure it would cost me less to simply sell the machine as scrap and purchase a brand new machine in it's place and that is what I find totally unacceptable about the entire situation.

Had I purchased from an individual I would simply say "Caveat emptor" and move on but since this is supposedly a respected retailer that specializes in such things I feel there is a higher standard expected, one they clearly have not met.

[venator]

I'm happy to do all of the things you've mentioned, this machine unfortunately suffered the car equivalent of a timing belt break with an interference design engine resulting in bent valves and scored pistons and a mis-aligned cam. It needed a real mechanic. . .

I like to think of owning a sewing machine in terms of owning a car.

Learning to use it is equivalent to learning to drive.

Cleaning and oiling is equivalent to washing and polishing a car

Changing needles and knowing when to change a needle is the same as car tyres.

Timing and minor adjustment is comparable to changing oil and oil filter in a car - very simple when clearly explained.

As with cars some owners are happy to pay someone else to do everything for them.

I tend to find that the people who have the least problems are the ones who want to understand how and why the machine works. I know it sounds silly but sewing machines "talk" to you - when things are not quite right they start to sound different - and the experienced user will start to sense when something is not quite right and find the problem before it becomes expensive.

[TinkerTailor]

I tend to find that the people who have the least problems are the ones who want to understand how and why the machine works. I know it sounds silly but sewing machines "talk" to you - when things are not quite right they start to sound different - and the experienced user will start to sense when something is not quite right and find the problem before it becomes expensive.

When i train bike mechanics, I try to train them about this, though it is one of the hardest skills to teach.

Machines talk and your ears are huge part of diagnosis.

When building bike wheels, It is not about having tight spokes, its about balance. They all have to be the same tension, and then they balance the load and result in a straight wheel. There are 2 ways to do it, The modern way with a tensiometer guage and a dial indicator wheel truing stand, or the old way where you pluck the spokes one at a time and listen, then tension them so they sound the same. If they sound the same, they will have the same tension. Truing wheels, your thumb is an amazing pressure sensor, if you place your thumb lightly against the sidewall while holding the frame and spinning the wheel, you will feel the wobble quite readily.

Guys who work the old way can fix a wheel anywhere anytime with a slot screwdriver or a spoke wrench, I carry a 3way spoke wrench as a keychain.

Guys who do it the modern gauge way are screwed outside of the shop.

To diagnose, I can spin a wheel and put a pencil into the spokes, and listen. I know instantly the condition of the wheel. I also hear broken spokes as the customer is rolling the bike in the door. I also put one end of a wrench on the axle nut, and cup my hand around the other against my ear to use it like a stethoscope and listen to the bearings while they are spinning. This method works really good to pinpoint a problem in a complex machine. Screwdrivers without modern rubbery handles work too.

I use the guitar tuning analogy:

You can tune the guitar by ear, matching one string to the next or you can use an electric tuner to do it. Both will put the guitar in tune.

However, with one method, 2 problems arise. How do you tune with no batteries? Can you hear it go out of tune while playing?

Edited January 15, 2016 by TinkerTailor

[Darren Brosowski]

LOL Mate,

I was complimenting Eric on sharing his knowledge and hope you don't think I was having a go at you.

If that 467 was offered to me I would not have touched it as, to extend your metaphor, I think it rolled off a cliff, crashed and burned!!

I'm happy to do all of the things you've mentioned, this machine unfortunately suffered the car equivalent of a timing belt break with an interference design engine resulting in bent valves and scored pistons and a mis-aligned cam. It needed a real mechanic. . .

[gottaknow]

I just read through this thread again and was pleased to see all the pictures back! It didn't make a lot of sense without them.

Regards, Eric

[Haderimouve]

Hi everybody !

Thank you very much Eric for all these information about the Adler 467-373 because ... I just bought one !

I have other machines ; among them, a Bernina 217N, a PFAFF 335H3 and a PFAFF 545H3 as well as a 546H3 . All these machines are perfect for my hobby activity and very easy to lubricate and take care of . I just realized that the ADLER 467 is a factory machine usually working 8 hours per day at high speed ... All the contrary of what I'm doing with my sewing machines !

Hope I will find a solution for my new machine lubrification !

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Haderimouve