Tooling A Knife Sheath?

[stoney327]

Hello

I'm new to tooling, but have been a knife/sheath maker since 1966. When I make a sheath, I know I need to " back " the leather before casing and tooling, Here's my dilema, in order to make my stitch groove I need to have a good sanded edge to follow. Without putting the sheath together first, I can't get that perfect edge? If I put it togerther first I can't tool it because there's no solid backing behind the blade area? I can't tool the front first, or the edges of the layers may not line up? Has anyone else run into this " catch 22 " situation?

At the very least, this is a hard problem to explain, but if anyone "gets it"??? I'd appreciate any help you can offer? If I'm not giving enough information, please let me know.

Regards:

Stoney327

owner/operator

Pappy Dave's Knives

Berwick, Pa.

" In business since 1966 "

[JLSleather]

What leather are you using? If the sheath is made of leather 6 oz or thicker (I assume that it is) then you don't need to 'back' the leather to tool it. I tool the snot outta belts all the time.. no "backing".

If your leather is "smooshy", then you're either using low-grade leather, or tooling too wet, or both.

Edited September 27, 2015 by JLSleather

[Jaymack]

I understand your dilemma. My solution is to first cut the shape of the leather and tool the front side. I sew rivet on any part such as the belt loop or other straps. I then align and contact cement all parts together including the welts. Once the glue has dried, I sand the edges. I use this edge for my stitch groover.

I am also interested in what others do.

[stoney327]

JLSleather

Thanks for the speedy response. I'm using 8/9 oz., but my issue isn't with the tooling as much as how do I construct ( in what order ) this multi layer sheath and still be able to tool the front? Making a multi layer sheath is a fairly easy job, It's making one with tooling on the front that seems to be killing me? The sheath I'm doing is for one of two " carbon copy " Combat knives that I'm doing for twin brotheres in Afghanistan who are my neighbors and used to be my students. I really SUCK at tooling, but since I'm doing these for identical twins, I'd like to make them the same and yet personal enough to be a little unique? I don't know if you're into knife sheathes, but knives and sheathes are my only concern in the hobby/small business??? world. I know I'll NEVER be a world class tooler, God knows I've spent enough money on tools that I should be? I had a stroke 2 years ago, next month, so things have not been the best as far as using my hands go. My brain is still a little scrambled but I'm making headway? When I came home from the hospital after 6 weeks, I had trouble telling the difference in clockwise and counterclockwise, but some of it's coming back? Thanks for your help. God bless.

Dave

Stoney327

[stoney327]

I understand your dilemma. My solution is to first cut the shape of the leather and tool the front side. I sow rivet on any part such as the belt loop or other straps. I then align and contact cement all parts together including the welts. Once the glue has dried, I sand the edges. I use this edge for my stitch groover.

I am also interested in what others do.

Jaymack

Thank you for taking the time to reply, I appreciate the help I get from the great folks on the LW's forum. If you read my reply to JLSleather, you'll see my dilemma? I have always pretty much done it as you've described, it's doing it with the tooling???? on the front that seems to be an issue for me?

Thank you again. God bless. I think I can still say that... right ???

Dave

Stoney327

Edited September 27, 2015 by stoney327

[JLSleather]

Dave

8-9 leather is plenty to tool in ... the belt in that pic is tooled in 7/8 ounce, and the borders are good n straight. Tooling with the leather still too wet is probably the most common mistake made by leather folks (my own guess just from talkin with foks).

As a rule, all tooling is done BEFORE assembling anything. There are a few exceptions, but that's another day.

You'll need a pattern of some sort if you want to make them match. Doesn't need to be laser precision, but a general idea. You're the knife guy, so I'm not gonna even try to tell you the shape you want You can 'test-fit" a piece of leather using rubber cement. If you're careful about where you put the cement, you'll be able to trim teh leather the way you like it, and still pull it back apart. Then you can use that piece to cut the shape of the other piece.

From there, simple matter of doing any tooling you want on there, and assembling as you normally would.

[ChuckBurrows]

I understand your problem exactly as well and here's some suggestions after probably 8K sheaths in the last 50 years.

1) Use good firm leather - I have had it double or even triple pressed in order to make sure it's plenty firm. W & C will do this when ordered from the factory.

2) Leather weights - for most knives with blades up to 5" I use 7/5 oz. Larger blades say 6-10" I use 8/9 oz, and for the real big boys I use 10/11 dependent on type and style of sheath

3) I have tooled in different ways.
A - Standard tooling, cut part to shape, tape the back side to prevent ANY stretch (the real bugaboo for keeping even on a sheath), dampen and toll as normal.

- Construct the sheath and then tool - to do this you need a filler for the blade. I generally use strips of cheap aluminum from the hardware store to fake the blade. Thickness does not have to match exactly and I grind to a basic shape of the blade. I make them about 14" long so they can be re-used for various lengths. Over time you'll build up a collection of these that will fir the majority of blade shapes/sizes. Another option is to use the style of carving that only uses a swivel knife. I do this frequently and sometimes add a bit of 3D by using spoons.

examples:

Swivel Knife only

Swivel Knife and spoons

3) Leave the piece to be carved in a larger size piece and tool. I think this image is self explanatory - Taping the back will also aid in preventing stretch. Once tooled cut out the front to the proper size and then gauge the size of the back and welt from that.

Hope that helps....

[stoney327]

Dave

8-9 leather is plenty to tool in ... the belt in that pic is tooled in 7/8 ounce, and the borders are good n straight. Tooling with the leather still too wet is probably the most common mistake made by leather folks (my own guess just from talkin with foks).

As a rule, all tooling is done BEFORE assembling anything. There are a few exceptions, but that's another day.

You'll need a pattern of some sort if you want to make them match. Doesn't need to be laser precision, but a general idea. You're the knife guy, so I'm not gonna even try to tell you the shape you want You can 'test-fit" a piece of leather using rubber cement. If you're careful about where you put the cement, you'll be able to trim teh leather the way you like it, and still pull it back apart. Then you can use that piece to cut the shape of the other piece.

From there, simple matter of doing any tooling you want on there, and assembling as you normally would.

JLSleather

Thanks a heap!!! I'm glad I posted my question. I usually don't get this many replies? :~)))) Guess I posted a ? that's near and dear to everyone's heart? Thanks to the entire LW community, You guys are AWESOME!!!! My stroke sort of sidelined me a bit, but I'm making my way back!!! I never was good at it, but by God, I try!!!

Dave

stoney327

[stoney327]

I understand your problem exactly as well and here's some suggestions after probably 8K sheaths in the last 50 years.

1) Use good firm leather - I have had it double or even triple pressed in order to make sure it's plenty firm. W & C will do this when ordered from the factory.

2) Leather weights - for most knives with blades up to 5" I use 7/5 oz. Larger blades say 6-10" I use 8/9 oz, and for the real big boys I use 10/11 dependent on type and style of sheath

3) I have tooled in different ways.

A - Standard tooling, cut part to shape, tape the back side to prevent ANY stretch (the real bugaboo for keeping even on a sheath), dampen and toll as normal.

- Construct the sheath and then tool - to do this you need a filler for the blade. I generally use strips of cheap aluminum from the hardware store to fake the blade. Thickness does not have to match exactly and I grind to a basic shape of the blade. I make them about 14" long so they can be re-used for various lengths. Over time you'll build up a collection of these that will fir the majority of blade shapes/sizes. Another option is to use the style of carving that only uses a swivel knife. I do this frequently and sometimes add a bit of 3D by using spoons.

examples:

Swivel Knife only

Swivel Knife and spoons

3) Leave the piece to be carved in a larger size piece and tool. I think this image is self explanatory - Taping the back will also aid in preventing stretch. Once tooled cut out the front to the proper size and then gauge the size of the back and welt from that.

Hope that helps....

Hello Chuck

I'd like to say thank you to you and all the great folks on the leatherworkers net forum for their support and help, however after much swearing and screaming this afternoon for about 2 hours, I've decided to hang it up! All I did was waste leather and time? I tried the swivel knife and modeling spoon only approach, apparently there's a LOT more to it than I can comprehend? I did a decent ( by my standards ) job of cutting my belt Craftaid pattern, then everything went wrong? I guess I just don't know what's next when I try it? I started alongside the knife cuts with the spoon and it looked very amateurish, but useable, so I tried adding some more spoon work, it just got worse? Eventually, I tried some pear shaders and a veiner to see if I could maybe salvage my mess... no luck! I guess there IS truth to the old addage that less is more? Again, you folks are Artists, Craftsmen, real toolers, and just all around great people! Never quit helping the newbies. Thank you all again. I'll keep making sheathes, I can't give that up!!! I just wanted to make them a litle more pro looking? Not in the stars?

God bless

Dave

stoney327

[bikermutt07]

Dave I'm only in my forties and can't do tooling. Too many years in construction. It makes my hands hurt and I have to save them for work.

We can make plenty of stuff without tooling though. There is plenty more art in leather than just tooling. We can still make cool artistic stuff.

Don't be too discouraged.