Setting Copper Rivet

[Pinsplitter]

I bought some copper rivets and the matching setting tool, and I can't get the end to go down to a nice rounded ball shape, i hit it really really hard. What am i missing?

Bought in Australia, is it possible the copper is too hard?

They are difficult to cut to, i have to use a hacksaw, i can't just snip the post with cutters.

[kiwican]

while its a soft metal it maybe takes a little practice to get it right. After cutting and using the rounding tool, i use a ball hammer to round it out, that said it never comes out round, it comes out with character

[TwinOaks]

For peening the rivet posts, you need to have a REALLY solid surface to hammer against...an anvil or similar surface with a lot of mass is recommended. Start the rounding with the hammer to get it mashed down, then switch to the domed portion of the setting tool to finish smoothing it out.

[Chief31794]

For peening the rivet posts, you need to have a REALLY solid surface to hammer against...an anvil or similar surface with a lot of mass is recommended. Start the rounding with the hammer to get it mashed down, then switch to the domed portion of the setting tool to finish smoothing it out.

What he said, I cut mine (after setting the burr) down to about 1/8" or so, then start lightly with a ball peen hammer (peen end) going around the edge till I get it pretty well mashed down all the way around, then I use the doming tool to smooth out the top. It's important to keep the material centered as you peen it around so the dome doesn't set off center when it's finished. With Copper rivets you can't rush, it takes time to seat and finish each rivet, that's one of the reasons rapid rivets and tublar rivets were invented, to save time.

Hope that helps,

Chief

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

FWIW, there DOES seem to be a difference in copper. I've had some that were so hard, I could barely cut them with my end nippers. Others are softer and cut nicely. It seems like the older rivets (on repair work of old items) are the hardest. I don't know if age has hardened them or if the copper was actually harder to start with. Make sure you are using an end nippers, not a side cutter.

[bruce johnson]

Elton Joorisity turned me on to using Todd nippers. Todd end nippers with the replaceable edges will make short work of cutting off excess shank. Another advantage is the bevel on the cutters is just right to set flush to nip and the remaining stem is just the right length for a clean peening. The three piece setters work best for me. One sets the burr, the second rounds over the peen, and third domes the head of the rivet for a clean, finished look. Sheridan Leather Outfitters sells the set and they are the real thing. If I can't set three within a minute, I'm slacking.

[Pinsplitter]

Thanks for all that info guys.

I was wondering if annealing them would help, i will give that a try too, and get some from a different supplier to see if their is any difference.

[Art]

A summary:

Cutoff above the burr should be around 1/8 inch (about 3mm for the metric crowd). This is going to vary with your setter and or style, some folks just use a hammer and make some pretty peens. I use a lot of burr rivets in some of my gear, unfortunately, a whole lot of them are brass and are bitchin' hard; you will soon find the proper length after you go through 10 or 20 of them. Copper is a dream after the brass, and again, the cutoff length becomes obvious after doing a few.

Cutting off the stud after setting the burr can be a problem. It seems like an easy thing to do, but the wrong tool will bugger the end which may not be pretty when you peen it over. The problem is crushing the end, and it is almost always due to either misaligned jaws, dull jaws, or usually, both. The choices available to accomplish cutoff, are saw or nip. Using a hacksaw or even a jewelers saw on a rivet with the burr set in a piece of leather can reasonable be compared to a monkey whumping a football, so I have to dismiss that one. The Dremel or Foredom works like a dream with a cutoff blade, but throws miniscule pieces of the rivet all over the work; you have to determine if you can deal with that. One teenage girl in a house with glitter makeup would convince you of the folly of having what amounts to copper (or brass in my case) glitter in the shop; metal shop, not a problem, leather shop, not so much. Sooooooo, nippers are the items used most. End nippers to be exact. I have both American Klein and German Irwin side cutters and end nippers. These things are really made for electrical wire and thinner piano wire, and are excellent tools, BUT not so much for hacking off rivets. That leaves us with blacksmith nippers, made for cutting soft to medium hard steel. Bruce has recommended Todd nippers, and I agree. I have a few pairs in size 1, 2, and 3. They made 0 through 6 I believe, with 0 being pretty big and 6 too small. Pexto and Carew also made removable cutter pliers, in my opinion, not quite a good as the Todds. None of these tools is commercially available anymore as they would have to sell for over $100, so eBay or a local tool auction is probably the best bet to get a decent pair for South of $30. Jaw condition and fit-up (how the edges come together) is important. There should be very little "wobble" in the pin that holds the handles together. A little work can make an old set of nippers really useable for clipping off those posts. Dressing the edges with a grinder or file can work wonders especially if the edges are dull or pitted. They don't have to be knife sharp (and shouldn't be), but they should come to an edge instead of a rounded corner. Don't get all aggressive on a bad ding or two, as long as you have a clean edge somewhere to cut the rivet. If the edges are totally trashed and you can't fix it, don't buy that one. Once you get them to cut cleanly, stop, you have went far enough. If you cut-off a rivet and it doesn't leave enough post to peen, glue a 2 oz or more piece of veg tan on the top of the jaws to make them clip to the length you like. Enough about nippers.

Anvil. Every leatherworker or metalworker should have one (or more in my case). Please do not use your stone you use for tooling. Irresistible force (hammer) must meet immovable object (anvil) with the rivet in the middle. A block of steel, a railroad rail, a piece of I or H beam or other smooth hard surface, or an actual anvil will work well. That little anvil that leather stores sell is ok, just barely. A 30 lb Harbor Freight is better and a 288 lb Hay-Budden works well too. A big piece of steel or the 30 lb HF anvil is good because you won't be a great loss when you drill holes or indents in them to hold things like rivet heads, Sam Brown studs, and other things you don't want to deform or dimple. If you get one of those mini anvils, you have to put it on something solid, not a wobbly kitchen table. It is not uncommon around here to see the 30 lb HF anvil sitting on top of the irreplaceable Hay.

I guess it all gets down to pounding. I used the Heritage setters I got from Weaver for years, they work fine. Sometimes they will leave a mark on the leather, chalk it up to operator error (however, it is always more convenient to blame the tool). I bought a set of setters from Vandy at Sheridan Leather Outfitters that are made by Bob Douglas. This is a nice set of three that #1 set the burr, #2 peen the post, and finally #3 that will dome the rivet head on the other side. Doming the head is not necessary if the head won't be seen, however it is just classy.

There was some question as to the rivets being harder when set. When you bend, hammer, or "work" brass or copper, it is called work hardening. That is why the set rivets (especially the peened posts and heads) are harder than the unset ones.

Art

[Northmount]

i hit it really really hard. What am i missing?

Don't hit it really hard. You will get a lot farther with soft taps. Hitting it hard will likely produce a bend that messes it all up. Learned this from my Dad when I was about 12 years old. That is a long time ago! Before we had all these fancy tools. Just a cutters and a ball peen hammer.

Tom

[TinkerTailor]

For copper rivets, i usually go for the smallest ball pein i can find. I have this little cute 6 or 7 once one that is just perfect for not bending the rivet over. I need to limit my force to finesse the rivet.

I have a habit of using hammers a little aggressively........I generally do my doublecaps with the one hit wonder technique........BAAAMMM. flat on both sides.

For this i generally use a 16 ounce round head autobody hammer because the head is wide (1-3/4") and flat with a slight dome and does not mark with my agressive hits. Usually sinks the rivet just below the surface as well.

Speaking of which, i gotta go polish my hammer

[thunter9]

hello i'll try and explain all of this from the very start. first find a pc of 1/2 inch steel rod about 1/2 inch long ... now start to drill a 3/16---1/4 inch hole on one end. drill as deep as you want to dome the rivet. now grinds a long taper about 3/4 inch down to about 1/16 from the edge of the hole. now thats done find a #grade 8 bolt about 2 1/2 inches long and 5/8 to 3/4 in in size. drill a 3/16 hole on the end. go about 1 3/4 deep [ you want the hole deep enough so you can set the washer and not bottom out. and the hole big enough so the rivet slides easy as for the cutter either side or end cutters try and cut as cllose to the washer as you can but move it just slightly . if that makes any cents. while tapping on the rivet set move it arouind in a cyrcler motion while you trying to set the rivet. if every thing looks good center it up and set it one more time

[thunter9]

the hole you punch should never be any larger than the rivet your using. ,if it is good luck keep every thing straight and you'll be good

[plinkercases]

Lots of tips already some repeated here but this is what I have learned:

• I use a 3 piece set of setter, peener and domer like these:
  • http://www.juddtools.com/rivet-setters--domers.html
• punch a whole that is tight for the rivet to go through for the whole length
• I found compound nipper/side cutters gave me enough leverage to get through the thickest rivets, reasonably flush (I leave about a 16th top 8th) and even then I will often work my way around while cutting so I don't try to go al the way through in one go
• working around and/or making a second nip 90 degrees to the first leaves a cut tip that is more pyramid shaped and chisel shaped and makes peening easier
• Lighter taps on the peener while rotating it around at a slight angle
• Always work on a heavy steel plate, shoemakers metal last, or piece of heavy flat bar depending on how I can get to the rivet - and I also learned by my bench has areas that flex more so I found and use the most solid spot for this work...even steel plate will bounce on a bouncy spot.
• Dome the rivet head then touch up the peen lightly if it flattened a little and is visible where I would care.

And practice practice practice... hope this helps.