Funny/sad Story About Tandy Leather...

[Bob Blea]

That by itself is a sign of hope for Tandy.

[Ferg]

I have defended Tandy many times. The business situation in the US and other parts of the world tend to define a lot of how a company, corporate or otherwise, does business. Tandy has had to buy from China, Mexico, and Lord knows where else to stay in business. Their tools aren't much any more but what they have gives and has given thousands of young and old the opportunity to delve into a craft that almost every person can learn to do. That cannot be said for Painting, computer programing among many.

I began my leather crafting 62 years ago. Tandy was in it's Heyday. Leather was high quality, tools were probably made in the US, and we had Al and Ann Stohlman among a few others. Al wasn't the best their is/was but he knew how to illustrate and write tutorials so anyone could understand them. In later life Ann became the best designer and leather crafts lady. I probably own most of the books Tandy has carried over the years. I hate attending school to learn how to do things. I devour books as though they were GOURMET Ice Cream. Frankly, I am glad those old books are still available as well as new ones I have.

You need to spend much of your life in business that is highly competitive to fully understand some of the predicament Tandy finds itself in today. I spent a large part of my life building houses. The last, almost 40 years, have been in manufacturing children's wooden furniture and toys. You haven't lived until you fight for your business life in either of those.

BTW: Last summer I visited the Cincinnati Tandy and bought some of the best leather I have ever used.

And that is my .02

ferg

[kiwican]

Well done Pogue44 for taking the time to spend with your Kid, the world needs more Dads like you!

As for Tandy, well if it wasn't for their videos i would never have tracked down a Tandy store an got myself a starter kit and embarked on, what has been for me a very much life altering experience. Yup the people in that Tandy store were sales people and not gifted leather workers like some of the people here and since that day I have found a few other places that equal or are less than what they charge and the staffed with folks whom I call leather gods due to their knowledge and willingness to share knowledge but i do owe Tandy for putting me on the path

[TinkerTailor]

I totally agree with everything you've said. Prices have gone way up while quality has gone way down. It's sad, but Tandy has turned into a corporation. No longer are they the same small town type of store where everyone is friends and it's all about the customer's happiness with their shopping experience and the products they buy. I used to work in manufacturing and I can rarely get any of the shops I worked for or did business with to buy from Tandy. They can find the same hardware or Fiebing's products or similar tools at much cheaper prices from other places. I work for Tandy and even I don't use their products that often. If you want to see how much the quality has gone down, just compare a Craftool stamp from 30 years ago to a new one. That's why people pay so much for the vintage Craftools. And I don't even mean the discontinued ones. People will pay twice as much for a used vintage Craftool even though they can get the same stamp brand new from Tandy.

The only thing I will say though, is even though some of the tools have gone down in quality, there is a lifetime warranty on all tools. If they break from normal wear and tear or are defective in any way, you can just bring it or send it to your local Tandy and they will replace it for free. And also, Tanddy does sell solid brass double cap rivets. They are item numbers 1379-11, 1381-11, and 1383-11. They also come in solid brass nickel plated.

I find it interesting that this conversation happened on the day your CEO "resigned"...........The first time i see a tandy employee agree with a negative sentiment about tandy, and it is the same day the boss quits....

[jrny4wrd]

The craziest thing is if you send a message via email, itl just go right to the store.

[Reegesc]

It's interesting how the original post generated so many comments. But then again it's ethics + money and that's sure to garner interest. I popped in this thread thinking it was going to be humorous story. As it turns out I have something to add here that I'm going to share because I so rarely have the opportunity to present my theory on over/undercharging. It take a different approach than most people. But before I explain my theory, let me preface my practice by saying I only apply this to the faceless, corporate big box stores and not at the owner/operator one man locksmith shop. Just a couple days ago my friendly neighborhood convenience store owner accidentally gave me change back on a $20 when it should have been on a $10. That was returned on the spot without even thinking about it. Then there's the other stores....

It's only happened a handful of times, but if I'm checking out and I notice I have been undercharged, I don't point it out -- I take the "savings". Now, is that unethical? Hardly. These things happen on a normal distribution. The amount and number of times you are overcharged are balanced by an equivalent amount of overcharges that you don't notice and never find out about. The way I see it, I'm just keeping the overall over/under charge in balance over a lifetime of shopping.

-- Debate Challengers Welcomed --

Edited February 16, 2016 by cseeger

[Ferg]

You are welcome to your opinion.

I don't see any difference in your two scenarios.

If I get undercharged, I don't care where, I make sure I pay the correct amount. Overcharged? Of course I am going to pursue that also.

I do not wish to get into a corporate "yay-nay" here. Why do so many folks have the idea that corporate is so wrong all the time? I admit, some times the big boys can get carried away. Do any of you realize how much is pilfered from big box stores? We visit Lowe's often, many times for small amount of plumbing fittings or screws, etc. This particular company is double bagging small product to slow down actual theft. People will take screws out of an electrical cover package and actually hang the pilfered bag back on the kiosk or shelf. The stealth in retail is unbelievable. Of course there are those that think nothing of it, "Oh they are making millions, they don't need that." I observed a gentleman, I use that loosely, sorting through smoke alarms one day. He actually opened a number of them taking one or two items from each until he had a complete product, stuffed them into his pockets and walked out. No alarm at the door since he didn't have the box. He was there for 20 minutes. I wanted to walk up and give him a big kick in the rear.

Shopping carts left in the parking lot that may be ten feet from a corral, disabled folks are excused. I have watched while folks load their car, push the cart over to the vehicle next to them, pull out and if the wind is blowing or the pavement slopes, BANG ! into someone else's property.

You are not owed anything you didn't work for or pay for, PERIOD!

ferg

Edited February 16, 2016 by 50 years leather

[Reegesc]

Not dissing corporate at all. I have an MBA, plenty of conservative academic economics training, and 25 years in Fortune 500 corporate finance. I'm pro big bidness. Also not saying anyone has been malicious or at fault. These are just accidents that happen. I'm simply applying a statistical model to a common behavior and concluding that there is no ethical misconduct in accepting a windfall just as there is no ethical misconduct by foregoing overcharges --- overcharges you don't know about, and I can assure you we all have a lot more of those than we know. The reason I made a distinction between a big corporation and a mom and pop shop is simply because I elect not to include them in the "correction pool" because I'm a softy and they would be more directly and disproportionately affected. I would and have extended that people I've hired to perform house repairs and what not -- carpenters, electricians, laborers. Corporations aren't suffering from my "correction" practice. Quite the opposite. Overcharges are pure profit.

-- More challengers please --

Edited February 16, 2016 by cseeger

[TinkerTailor]

Not dissing corporate at all. I have an MBA, plenty of conservative academic economics training, and 25 years in Fortune 500 corporate finance. I'm pro big bidness. Also not saying anyone has been malicious or at fault. These are just accidents that happen. I'm simply applying a statistical model to a common behavior and concluding that there is no ethical misconduct in accepting a windfall just as there is no ethical misconduct by foregoing overcharges --- overcharges you don't know about, and I can assure you we all have a lot more of those than we know. The reason I made a distinction between a big corporation and a mom and pop shop is simply because I elect not to include them in the "correction pool" because I'm a softy and they would be more directly and disproportionately affected. I would and have extended that people I've hired to perform house repairs and what not -- carpenters, electricians, laborers. Corporations aren't suffering from my "correction" practice. Quite the opposite. Overcharges are pure profit.

-- More challengers please --

I think a differentiation needs to be made between cash counting/overcharging/undercharging and flat out theft. Theft of product hurts everyone. Mistakes at the till probably do balance out in the long run. The cost, if there is one, is small compared to the cost to pursue the money, both in man hours and reputation points.

Plus, with mistakes at the till, there is a whole grey area over what exactly, legal contract wise, a sale represents and what responsibilities each party has after the sale. Everywhere you go, filling your pockets and walking out is illegal.

Here in Canada we have got rid of the penny and they round all cash transactions to the nearest $.05. Digital transactions do not round, they are exact still. Soooo, If i save the pennies I pay cash, however if it rounds up, I pay with a card. It is petty, I know but i also know i am ahead in the rounding game........If only bythe price of a coffee at starbucks....

[Reegesc]

I think a differentiation needs to be made between cash counting/overcharging/undercharging and flat out theft. Theft of product hurts everyone. Mistakes at the till probably do balance out in the long run. The cost, if there is one, is small compared to the cost to pursue the money, both in man hours and reputation points.

Plus, with mistakes at the till, there is a whole grey area over what exactly, legal contract wise, a sale represents and what responsibilities each party has after the sale. Everywhere you go, filling your pockets and walking out is illegal.

Here in Canada we have got rid of the penny and they round all cash transactions to the nearest $.05. Digital transactions do not round, they are exact still. Soooo, If i save the pennies I pay cash, however if it rounds up, I pay with a card. It is petty, I know but i also know i am ahead in the rounding game........If only bythe price of a coffee at starbucks....

Yes, of course. I'm referring to accidental overages, underages. Theft is...well THEFT. Not much to discuss on that topic. Well, I guess you could explore what constitutes theft, but I got stuff to do. Maybe later.

[Dougster]

I'm simply applying a statistical model to a common behavior and concluding that there is no ethical misconduct in accepting a windfall just as there is no ethical misconduct by foregoing overcharges --- overcharges you don't know about, and I can assure you we all have a lot more of those than we know.

I'm sure that, at some level, all of those overs and unders you're not aware of do balance themselves out.

I have a problem with the ones you *do* know about though. Those aren't balanced by the ones that you *don't* know about. I believe that if you're going to (try to) be ethical, you have to either accept all overs and unders, or reject all overs and unders. That is, if you challenge the overcharges that you know about, you have to challenge the undercharges that you know about. Put a different way, I believe that if you take the money when you know they undercharge, you have to give the money when you know they overcharge. In reality, I personally think the only proper way to deal with it is to point it out when you see it happen.

Side story: I bought a motocross bike trailer some years ago. They asked for an amount. I agreed, and then the guy threw in a couple extra pieces. I went to the bank and got cash out for them. I decided to get an extra twenty bucks for the extra parts. When I handed over the money, the guy's wife counted it. He asked if it was the original amount and she said yes. I looked at her and could tell that she knew there was extra. It was fascinating to see how she reacted. In that moment, I decided that I would not buy any of the other items they had for sale. I sometimes wonder if she even told her husband about it or whether she pocketed the extra twenty...

To tie back into the original subject, I would have been much happier if the manager had acknowledged the mistake and had me pay the difference directly, instead of acknowledging the mistake, telling me not to worry about it, and then adding the difference into the next transaction.

[raysouth]

WOW! So many opinions about something that should be easy to understand by doing what is right. As the saying goes, everyone has one, but usually not in reference to opinions.

Simple for me. If I catch and undercharge at the store or when I return home and check my receipt, I simply show the folks where the problem was and I pay for the due balance or return the unpaid merchandise.

If overcharged, I follow the same principal and expect the store to refund the overcharge.

Seems that here are many differing opinions as to how such a simple process should be corrected.

I don't feel that there are any excuses that can excuse anything other than correcting the situation and paying for what we purchase and receiving refunds when we are overcharged.

Sales clerks are no different than we are, good days and bad days so not a reason that should make the transaction different than what it was supposed to be. When I shop for items and see what they cost, I simply pay the price if I want the item and leave it if I think I can do without it or priced higher than I wish to pay.

If you have ever experienced the selling end of a situation, you certainly want to receive your price and prevent overcharging a customer that you hope will continue to do business with you.

I suppose a good way to be is simply, let your conscience be your guide.

God Bless.

Ray

[WinterBear]

Haven't seen you in a while raysouth, hello.

Back on topic, here's my two cents---if the customer is undercharged, it is the seller's fault--they undercharged you through their mistake. You were rung up, paid the price you were told, took your items and left. There was no falsity on your part. And when the manager noticed it, they should have never been short with you---it was the manager's fault--they or their employees rung it up wrong. You hadn't altered the price tags, changed the markings for the square footage, passed a counterfeit giftcard or coupon--you didn't do anything to make the price come up less than it should be---so not your fault, and you weren't defrauding the store. That being said, it was quite likely illegal for the manager, and certainly unethical, to charge you the money the next visit. The manager should have never done that.

[NVLeatherWorx]

And there, WinterBear, has nailed the whole thing on the head. The clerk/manager who rang up the transaction is solely at fault for the whole thing, period. Adding a charge to any future transaction that is based on their mistake is just flat bad business and, I am sure, would violate some laws out there. Tandy is no different than any other business out there, they have all of these "mistakes" programmed into the business model and accounting and that is a fact. Those of you who have a business should have the same thing factored into your operations. There are always things coming up short, whether it is an item that has been shoplifted or a clerk gives back more change than they should have, every business has something like this happen and none of us are any different. Knowing that, is it in your best interest the next time you see that customer that you gave too much change back to or just missed ringing up a smaller item only to charge them for it or ask for it to be returned? The answer is NO! The error was made and you suck it up, just make sure that everyone pays better attention from that moment forward. The manager in question regarding the OP was dead wrong and should have actually been fired for their actions; I know that if I were the one over this person they would have been gone for that. These types of actions bring a very negative light on the business as a whole (as found within the contents of this entire topic) and that negative light is what will create a firestorm of public lashings and loss of business, and that all happens company wide, not just the local store level.

[Reegesc]

Side story: I bought a motocross bike trailer some years ago. They asked for an amount. I agreed, and then the guy threw in a couple extra pieces. I went to the bank and got cash out for them. I decided to get an extra twenty bucks for the extra parts. When I handed over the money, the guy's wife counted it. He asked if it was the original amount and she said yes. I looked at her and could tell that she knew there was extra. It was fascinating to see how she reacted. In that moment, I decided that I would not buy any of the other items they had for sale. I sometimes wonder if she even told her husband about it or whether she pocketed the extra twenty...

Ha, so you overcharged yourself and were shortchanged on acknowledgement of your generosity. Man, that's a full circle underage/overage transaction Geez. Just curious, why didn't you say something, to the Husband at any rate if for no other reason than to demonstrate you appreciated his generosity? As it stood, both of you were shortchanged on being good guys.

You make a good point on overages though, that all things equal, intervening in an overage that's noticed is a double dip with nonintervention of an undercharge. I see your point, that if you isolate all observed overcharges and undercharges, you either have to be all in or completely out. Thinking this through a bit more, however, that doesn't take into account the seller's side of the equation, i.e., their actions on the observed errors. I think it's fair to say that at the register you would expect fair play 99% of the time (your Tandy experience being the outlier). But the dynamic is quite a bit different on the seller side.

Whereas consumers are pretty much limited to observing these errors at the register and to a much lesser degree scrutinizing their sales receipt on the way to their auto, sellers have multiple reviews through their accounting systems and procedures. It's estimated that 5% of scans are in error and overcharges are upwards of $2.5B annually. So in the case of the seller, they discover these errors more frequently than consumers after the fact with aggregated systems and accounting information. I think that once it's removed from the register and is being examined analytically, the behavior is going to be a double dip and to take the windfall. And if true, then the balance would be the consumer doing the same.

What do you think?

Edited February 17, 2016 by cseeger

[Reegesc]

WOW! So many opinions about something that should be easy to understand by doing what is right.

~sigh~

[Dougster]

Just curious, why didn't you say something, to the Husband at any rate if for no other reason than to demonstrate you appreciated his generosity?

I didn't think there was anything to gain at that point. Maybe it's going to make her look bad. Maybe he's going to learn something he might not have wanted to know. Maybe I would have learned that he was like her. No matter, I had made my decision at that point and had no need to do anything else but say thank you, shake his hand, and drive away...

[Art]

You are the Devil Dougster, the snake. You tempted Woman and she bit your twenty dollar apple. Get thee out Satan.

Art

[fasn8ya]

I never said they were reasonably priced haha! Just that Tandy sells them.

I think Tandy relies on their monopolization of the leathercraft market. Even though people who are experienced in the field know about Barry King, Leatherwranglers, Chuck Smith, Bob Beard, Sheridan Leather, Springfield Leather, Ohio Travel Bag, Beylors, Hide House, Wicket & Craig, Horween, Herman & Oak etc, the beginner and the casual hobbyist only know about Tandy. They think Tandy is the only place that sells leather, leather working tools, hardware, and so on. So they pay those prices because they don't know that there are other places with the same or similar products (sometimes far superior products) at more reasonable costs. We do have a lot of businesses that buy from us, but it's usually more specialty items that aren't readily available from other companies.

Anyway, I appreciate what you wrote and I understand and agree with your opinion.

Thanks for the list of the many Tandy alternatives! Hadn't heard of some of them. Happen to live a few miles from a local Tandy so sometimes its just convenience that sends me there. Have ordered a couple of times with Springfield and am very pleased. Their shipping rate is very reasonable also.

[jrny4wrd]

On February 9, 2016 at 0:22 AM, CastlesCustomLeather said:

I totally agree with everything you've said. Prices have gone way up while quality has gone way down. It's sad, but Tandy has turned into a corporation. No longer are they the same small town type of store where everyone is friends and it's all about the customer's happiness with their shopping experience and the products they buy. I used to work in manufacturing and I can rarely get any of the shops I worked for or did business with to buy from Tandy. They can find the same hardware or Fiebing's products or similar tools at much cheaper prices from other places. I work for Tandy and even I don't use their products that often. If you want to see how much the quality has gone down, just compare a Craftool stamp from 30 years ago to a new one. That's why people pay so much for the vintage Craftools. And I don't even mean the discontinued ones. People will pay twice as much for a used vintage Craftool even though they can get the same stamp brand new from Tandy.

The only thing I will say though, is even though some of the tools have gone down in quality, there is a lifetime warranty on all tools. If they break from normal wear and tear or are defective in any way, you can just bring it or send it to your local Tandy and they will replace it for free. And also, Tanddy does sell solid brass double cap rivets. They are item numbers 1379-11, 1381-11, and 1383-11. They also come in solid brass nickel plated.

Sure wish there was some size between the medium and large. 

[Doc Reaper]

I occasionally purchase from Tandy in Charlotte NC, instead of giving discounts to those that have accounts, they pick n choose who the want to give price breaks too! So I travel up to Zach Whites, it's cheaper and better quality! It's an all female crew at Tandy and none of them have any experience in leather - period! They need to hire folks that know the differences in the types of leather they sell, instead you get a used car salesman pushing to make a sale, it's kinda sad!

[bikermutt07]

I will chime in on the "Tandy brick and mortar" note.

I had been interested in leather work for quite a while when in 2014 my wife and I had our second son Eddie. Eddie only lived here two short weeks and the months that followed were very hard. My wife took her full ten weeks off from teaching to grieve. I stayed at home with her during the entire 10 weeks. It was hard to get moving again. We had come into a little unrelated cash influx so I was able to stay home for awhile.

I knew that I had to get moving again. I had to find something to make my hands go back to work. As it turns out a factory tandy store had just opened up down the street. So, one day I wandered in not knowing anything about leather work or tools. Lewis (the manager at the time) was really helpful and encouraging. He got me to come to a few classes and I bonded with some other area hobbyists.

This is a hobby I continue to enjoy. My wife and I look at our time with Eddie as the greatest learning experience God ever put in front of us. We both became closer and stronger because of him.

So yeah, tandy might be littered with corporate b.s. and unskilled salespeople, but for me; the fact that they were there at that time, makes the value immeasurable. I look forward to doing business with the sponsors here and I will.

I just wanted to say that if that Tandy store hadn't been there at that time I could have easily found the bottom of a bottle.

Thanks Tandy.

[Studio-N]

On 5/26/2016 at 10:16 PM, Doc Reaper said:

<snip>! They need to hire folks that know the differences in the types of leather they sell, instead you get a used car salesman pushing to make a sale, <end snip>

they would if they gave a crap. but they don't. It may change under the new regime but I'm a skeptic.

[NVLeatherWorx]

We could hope for some change under the "New Management" but the change over took place long enough ago and there has still been no apparent shift in their way of doing business.  I have long since written Tandy off as they lost their way long ago and are now too far gone to save.  Besides, they don't have anything to offer me at my stage in this trade.