Candy Stripe Saddle Stitch?

[Martyn]

and if the method was truly as weak as some say Stohlman saddles would not be around any more

I dont think it's weak - perhaps a little weak-er by virtue of cutting into the grain, but not weak. I doubt it makes any functional difference. It's not the reason I suggest to not use them. It's simply that changes to your technique are destroyed/hidden by them, so you cant see your own mistakes and cant evaluate your own development. I'm just suggesting if you are practising on scrap, try practising without them. It is *very* revealing. If you can get a good, traditional saddle stitch going without them, then you can always use the groover and O/S wheel on your finished items if you prefer the look. It's easy to add a groove any time you want and easy to run an O/S wheel if you want to. In my case though, once I had cracked a decent saddle stitch without them, they went in the bin (not literally, there are still a few times when I would use them, but you know what I mean). The groove and O/S wheel is a fashion thing though. This is a Swiss army backpack that I have been restoring. The leatherwork is date stamped 1949, it's almost 70 years old. The pack has had a very hard life and seen some serious abuse - but the linen thread has held up fine, not a groove or O/S in sight, just plain saddle stitch all over...

If you like the look of the O/S and groove, then fine, but it's absolutely not necessary. You almost never see it in European saddlery and there is plenty of old tack knocking around to prove it's not needed. It's a matter of personal taste, but personally, I would much rather see a good, traditional saddle stitch formed from good technique every time. Perhaps I'm feeling the bias because I've put a lot of effort into trying to do it myself, but to my eye, it's just so classy and if the stitching is good, it just seems a crime to force it to lay straight with a groove and crush the beauty out of it with a wheel.

 

I don't subscribe the theory that Stohlman only said to use the groover and overstitch because Tandy was paying him to move tools...

I agree, I doubt that was the reason. I suspect it was because he was pitching the guide at people who had little formal training and wanted to advise a method that gave them the best possible results for their skill level. The groover will keep the stitches straight and the O/S wheel will give them form. But neither do I think it's the gold standard.

Good there is not right or wrong just that we each progress on our chosen path to a result we are pleased with.

Absolutely. I'm not saying you or anyone *should* abandon the groover and O/S wheel for your finished items, it's a taste/fashion thing and whatever you like the look of, is all that matters. But when it comes to practice, if you practice without them, you will definitely challenge yourself. If you can get good without them, you'll be awesome with them and then you just pick what you like best.

I know this has been posted a million times, but the guy just blows me  away. The ease with which he can switch from left to right, front to back and any way up and his stitching is always bang on point.

 

[plinkercases]

I will definitely be looking at my method and result. I am not that old a  dog that I cant learn or see the value in new tricks.

I seen some of NA's videos but not this one I don't think and will certainly give it a look (again?),

Do you have a picture of a holster main seam with the un-grooved and traditional looking SS on it? I do a lot of non-pancake holsters and am curious just how the zig zig stich looks along an edge. I am making in e now with purely decorative stitching on the holster body and may go un-grooved or OS.... I may have just been converted!

Thanks for all your input.

 

[Boriqua]

1 minute ago, plinkercases said:

I will definitely be looking at my method and result. I am not that old a  dog that I cant learn or see the value in new tricks.

I seen some of NA's videos but not this one I don't think and will certainly give it a look (again?),

Do you have a picture of a holster main seam with the un-grooved and traditional looking SS on it? I do a lot of non-pancake holsters and am curious just how the zig zig stich looks along an edge. I am making in e now with purely decorative stitching on the holster body and may go un-grooved or OS.... I may have just been converted!

Thanks for all your input.

 

Certainly not great stitching but will give you an idea on a holster. I tried the groover and didnt like it and sold it immediately but to each their own. I just really dig the zig zag when I get it right. Here it is at 6spi with an awl

 

[plinkercases]

I believe I am seeing the light.

Thanks guys.

 

[plinkercases]

So now my question is who used what pricking irons? and from where? I am not going to Tandy for these unless folk shave had resounding success.

What I combination of stitch pacing and number of pricks seem to cover most needs? I do a lot of curved stitch lines......

[Boriqua]

Its a little pricy but this is what I have been using for the last couple years. I have a 5spi,6 and 7. My go to for most things is 6. I have used the 7 on inlays  and the damn 5 I bought for $30 sits in a box.

https://www.rmleathersupply.com/collections/tools/products/vergez-blanchard-pricking-wheel-1-wheel-any-size

If I get back to Motorcycle bags the 5 will be handy but for holster and sheaths and most things i make the 6 rules the day. I love this tool !!!!

[Martyn]

1 minute ago, plinkercases said:

So now my question is who used what pricking irons? and from where? I am not going to Tandy for these unless folk shave had resounding success.

What I combination of stitch pacing and number of pricks seem to cover most needs? I do a lot of curved stitch lines......

I would suggest using stitching chisels not irons. Irons are designed just to mark the leather with spacing and angle, then you punch through with an awl. They are very wedge shape in section and if you try to punch through, you will have an ugly big hole on the front. Stiching chisels have straight sided tines and are designed to punch all the way through OR just mark the leather for follow up with an awl. Chisels give you the option of either/or use of an awl - they are also MUCH cheaper. The Japanese chisels are very good and have had a huge surge in popularity, particularly Seiwa brand.

 

[billybopp]

I suspect that Stohlman recommended using a stitching groove for several reasons.  Most his work that I've seen pictures of were done with heavier leather, where the groove would not make that much difference in terms of strength.  His books are also aimed at beginning/intermediate leatherworkers, where a groove front and back will give a good reference for getting awl holes precisely aligned front to back, angle alignment, and also helps to guide an overstitch wheel for marking spacing.  I have no doubt that he was aware of pricking irons, and also aware of how expensive they were before the Chinese knock-offs became available.  An overstitch wheel is a far less expensive tool (not to mention readily available at the local Tandy store).  As mentioned above, there's nothing wrong with a groove in the right circumstances and there are some cases where it's the right aesthetic and is certainly a good thing to know for all levels of experience.  

I may be wrong, but those are my thoughts!

Bill

[Martyn]

1 hour ago, Boriqua said:

Certainly not great stitching but will give you an idea on a holster. I tried the groover and didnt like it and sold it immediately but to each their own. I just really dig the zig zag when I get it right. Here it is at 6spi with an awl

 

 

That's lovely, very nice.

[plinkercases]

Hey Boriqua can I see the back side of the stitching?

Does it also zig zag?  maybe because I am only playing around with single layer but I cant see the back stich on mine doing  zig zag.... seem to always run straight even while the front is zigin and zagin nicely..

[Boriqua]

Im sorry man but I dont have a pic of the back of that one. What I can say is that after watching hours of video, dont tell JLS, and after reading countless posts, consulted with oracles, having thrown the chicken bones and having expended yards and yards of thread here is what I came to .. if I get a really nice pronounced zig zag on the front I get a nice but very straight line on the back side. If I cast then I get a more reserved zig zag on the front but get almost as consistent a zig zag on the back. I do it both ways depending on the project and my mood but I most often default to give me the pronounced zig zag in front and I can be alright with a nice straight line in the back for the types of things i am most likely to make.

Now dont mistake me for a quiter!! I am still after the elusive perfect stitch front and back but I will admit that after almost 2 years of beating at it ..those are my findings. Either a good zig zag front and back or an excellent zig zag front and a straight line in back.

The pic below is of a stitch line on a holster that has been cast. You can see its not as exaggerated as the stitching example I posted above but the back was pretty close to the same as the front. Not as good but not straight and more zig zag. For a holster that will be worn against the body I would rather put all the bling out in front so I would opt for the sample above even though this looks ok.

One of the benefits of casting even though I dont LOVE the look as much is that you dont have to pay as much mind to it as you do it. The act of casting throws the thread where it needs to be so if you are sewing and doing something else you should still get a fair looking stitch. I can do it with my eyes closed. With something like the stitching sample above... well I really sweat each stitch to make sure I have pulled the thread how I want it to lie and it is a bit more work but not a hardship when you consider the results. Like everything else .. different techniques for different circumstances.

[Martyn]

On 20/06/2016 at 4:01 AM, Boriqua said:

if I get a really nice pronounced zig zag on the front I get a nice but very straight line on the back side. If I cast then I get a more reserved zig zag on the front but get almost as consistent a zig zag on the back.

That is a 100% mirror of my own experience.

I've kind of settled on casting pretty much all the time now. I agree you definitely do lose a bit of zig on the front, but I like the better zag on the back and I also agree, it's easy and very consistent. Your picture above is completely acceptable to me - lovely work. I like the idea of it being the same on the back, even if you almost never see it. 

[Boriqua]

So great to see you back martyn. I eventually tried the candy stripe. Not great but fun.

 

[MADMAX22]

Curious what you guys think of using these new braided poly cord that everyone seems to be using now a days when it comes to longevity. I know the linen thread has been used for a long time and there is proof as posted at the top of this page with it enduring for a very long time. What life expectancy do you all think the poly cord will have? 

I have always used a linen thread that I wax myself and it does very good although it will have occasional small inconsistencies with thickness where the poly cord is exact thru out its length. Personally I like the linen but picked up some cord to try out since others seem to really like it. Just curious if a belt or other project is still going to be going strong after 20 years with the cord.