Advice On Cobra Class 4 and Getting Another Machine For Lighter Stuff

[zckry]

Hey all, we recently picked up a Cobra Class 4 (CC4) from Steve and it's a great machine but we are having more of a headache than anything when it comes to sewing our thinner stuff (wallets, phone cases, etc.) with it.
The thinner stuff we sew is usually 4 to 4.5oz leather layers (normally two, occasionally three).

The issue we have with the CC4 when sewing these is the dreaded presser foot marks and I've tried just about everything to get these reduced but it's still pretty significant. I've heard of people even clipping the presser foot tension spring shorter but I really don't want to do that if it's not necessary on our almost new machine.

I've tried the following already with some success but I feel (correct me if I'm wrong), it may be too much machine for our thinner stuff:
* Adjust presser foot spring (backed out almost the entire way)
* Radius and polished presser foot and center foot
* Moved to thinner thread and needles
* Adjusted both bobbin and top thread tensions
* Adjusted banana slide all the way up

I'm sure the leather we use get affected more than some others out there too (usually english bridle, already dyed).

Anyway, I'm thinking of keeping the CC4 for bigger stuff (we do sew belts and thicker bags over 9oz together) but wanted to know if you guys think getting a "lighter" walking foot machine could help at all with our thinner stuff. I understand there are different sewing machine for different tasks so I'm wondering if that's mainly what's going on.

Here are some of the flat bed tables we have been looking at:

* Adler 867
* Weaver 2670
* Pfaff 1245

 

Thanks in advance for any help or advice!

Edited April 18, 2016 by zckry

[Ken Nelson]

If you sew them dry, you should not have much for presser foot marks.  Dampen it, take a bone folder and rub them out.  The machines you listed for lighter work are all good but expensive.   Look into a Class 18 from leather machine company or similiar machine from one of the suppliers on this sight.   They are set up for leather and the support you get is priceless.  Cheaper in the long run and a lot less headaches.     Most saddle shops have at least 2 sewing machines or more.    Reasons for it too.    HTH   Kem

[zckry]

Thanks Ken, the Cobra Class 18 is $1,600 but the Weaver 2670 is also $1,600 (I have wholesale/dealer account).
I wonder which one is better, I don't see a reverse lever on the Cobra Class 18? Other than that they appear the same to me but I haven't gotten detailed information on the machines yet.

The Pfaff is 1245 is $2,295 but yep the Adler starts getting higher up in the price range.

Edited April 18, 2016 by zckry

[zckry]

Just got word from Weaver, it sounds like the Weaver 2670 isn't going to work for the thread size we use.

[Bigpaws]

Cobra 18 does have a reverse lever.

 

[Art]

I have two Class 18 machines.  I would gladly trade one of them for a CowBoy 227R cylinder arm machine.  I would have to keep one 18 as the wife loves it, whereas I prefer the cylinder arm.

Art

[zckry]

1 hour ago, Art said:

I have two Class 18 machines.  I would gladly trade one of them for a CowBoy 227R cylinder arm machine.  I would have to keep one 18 as the wife loves it, whereas I prefer the cylinder arm.

Art

Do they provide smooth feed dog and presser feet like with the CC4? I didn't see it anywhere on the listing page and haven't contacted them.

[Techsew Ron]

3 hours ago, zckry said:

Just got word from Weaver, it sounds like the Weaver 2670 isn't going to work for the thread size we use.

what thread size are you looking to use? a light/medium walking foot machine will usually top out at 138 or 207.

Ron

[JLSleather]

You didn't mention the size thread you wanted to use.  

BUT, I will say that I have never found the support from steve (or anyone else out there) to be priceless.  Or even useful.  I have never seen the model 18, and the one guy I knew who  had one didn't particularly like it.  Art (above) seems happy with his, so that's one vote "for" and one "nay"

BUT.. the thing here is.. if your machine leaves (pressure) marks in light weight leather, then you would expect it to be WORSE in thicker leather.  I mean, the spring would be compressed MORE the thicker the leather.  Fact is, that machine you have SHOULD be able to sew the thickness you describe 8 oz to 12 oz English bridle).

 

[Singermania]

HI, yes winding the pressure knob all the way up is the first step, I presume by banana slide you mean the adjustment on the back???  Nothing wrong with taking a coil off the tension spring, you wont do it with wire cutters, but an angle grinder will work.   We at Cowboy in Australia would be ok with it, but you'd want to check with your supplier to see if it upsets the warranty.

[Art]

4 hours ago, Singermania said:

HI, yes winding the pressure knob all the way up is the first step, I presume by banana slide you mean the adjustment on the back???  Nothing wrong with taking a coil off the tension spring, you wont do it with wire cutters, but an angle grinder will work.   We at Cowboy in Australia would be ok with it, but you'd want to check with your supplier to see if it upsets the warranty.

Not sure how it works in the Southern Hemisphere, but up here, if you cut a coil off, you increase the rate, and if you add a coil you decrease the rate.  Is that what you are trying to accomplish?

Art

[Singermania]

Art if you cut a coil off you decrease the compression on the spring....simply because the spring does not reach as far and therefore the knob does not begin to bind down upon it so early, it doesn't matter what hemisphere you live in, we're not flushing toilets....

Depending on how much you cut off, the knob may not even come in contact with the spring until wound further down and therefore be no pressure on the foot at all.   As most of the feed is accomplished by the needle this is not a problem.    regards Steve

 

[JMWendt]

Are you sewing damp leather when you are having this problem?  I've sewn successfully with my machine (same machine, different company) on leather down to 4 oz without leaving marks-- wallet innards made from 2 oz pigskin.  I used the slotted plate without the feed dog.  You have to "help" the material feed, but the pressure is less and there is no tendency of the material to be crammed into the hole.  I was using small needles and 69 thread.  I only had to barely adjust the tension from the setting I have it for sewing 277 thread on beefy thick holster leather.

[Art]

4 hours ago, Singermania said:

Art if you cut a coil off you decrease the compression on the spring....simply because the spring does not reach as far and therefore the knob does not begin to bind down upon it so early, it doesn't matter what hemisphere you live in, we're not flushing toilets....

Depending on how much you cut off, the knob may not even come in contact with the spring until wound further down and therefore be no pressure on the foot at all.   As most of the feed is accomplished by the needle this is not a problem.    regards Steve

 

I am referring to a spring in torsion or compression; and I stand by my statement.  When you add a spring rubber to a spring, it "deadens" one of the coils and increases the spring rate which makes for a "firmer" ride.  When you compress a spring with a screw, as the coils bind against each other, coils are effectively "removed" as one collapses against the next, and the spring rate increases.

Art

[Singermania]

I understand the theory, I also did engineering, however if nothing pushed against a spring then not a lot of anything is going to happen.   This is not a motor vehicle where the vehicle depresses the spring at all times, in this case cutting a coil off is effective or if you want to go with your logic then a lighter spring would also be good.

Art I wouldn't suggest this if I didn't know it worked, your theory is nice but flawed as we are talking about putting less pressure on the spring, not decreasing the resistance of the spring.   What you are imagining is that the spring has no load at the top position of the knob, however if you unwind the knob completely it will fly off, by shortening the spring it does not fly off......therefor lessening the downward pressure.    If you could increase the length of the bar, ie have the knob wound up higher you would achieve the same result.... but that would be more difficult.

Whilst you are correct about altering the rate of the spring, it is so long that one coil wont make much difference to its sensitivity.

I can only make suggestions from years in this business, things that I know work, if you want to dispute it then I suggest you try it first.

[zckry]

We typically use 207 thread for our leather 

[Art]

3 hours ago, Singermania said:

Whilst you are correct about altering the rate of the spring, it is so long that one coil wont make much difference to its sensitivity.

I can only make suggestions from years in this business, things that I know work, if you want to dispute it then I suggest you try it first.

The only thing I said was about altering the rate of the spring not about anything else which you incorrectly read into it.  I have altered and made many springs in my day, I don't need to try it first, been there, done that and don't need suggestions from you.

Art

[Art]

On 4/18/2016 at 2:50 PM, zckry said:

Do they provide smooth feed dog and presser feet like with the CC4? I didn't see it anywhere on the listing page and haven't contacted them.

Those machines use 111 feet, and smooth feet are available, but I would suspect they are provided on the leather version of the 227R.

Art

[Singermania]

Art if you have a problem with me then you should be man enough to say what it is, if not then I suggest you watch your language in future or remove yourself as moderator... you were the one that jumped in on my reply to someone else.    You clearly have no idea of how a 441 works, you should keep to what you know and have some respect for heavy leather sewing machine professionals that give their time and experience free of charge.

 

Edited April 20, 2016 by Singermania

[Art]

20 minutes ago, Singermania said:

Art if you have a problem with me then you should be man enough to say what it is, if not then I suggest you watch your language in future or remove yourself as moderator... you were the one that jumped in on my reply to someone else.    You clearly have no idea of how a 441 works, you should keep to what you know and have some respect for heavy leather sewing machine professionals that give their time and experience free of charge.

 

My Language????, did I spell something incorrectly????.  BTW, I have two 441 clones, and I clearly have as good a depth of knowledge of how the 441 works as you do.  I was in this conversation before you were.  You are trying to bully the wrong person.

Art

[zckry]

It sounds like the Class 18 might be a good machine for us either way.
Anyone know if the Cowboy equivalent CB0618 offers anything different?

Edited April 20, 2016 by zckry

[Art]

The Highlead made Class 18 (0618) are very good machines that run and run.  If you need a medium flatbed unison feed (triple feed) machine, you won't go too wrong with the Class 18.  You'll have to get with Bob on the CB0618.  Good Guy.

Art 

[JLSleather]

Art, he wants to use 207 thread... is he good to go on the 18 / 0618?

 

 

[Art]

15 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

Art, he wants to use 207 thread... is he good to go on the 18 / 0618?

 

 

Yes 207 is ok, at least it is for me.  I use 207 top and 138 bobbin but it shouldn't matter.  Cobra says 207 os ok.

Art

[brmax]

I believe the Cowboy model is standard with the safety clutch, and the Highlead has a few models their 1st 0618 is possibly with out and same as the base juki 1541 is and in both these models if they have a "S" or SC ending their model number they do have the safety clutch built in as the Cowboy model does.

One of the dealers surely can help me out with this as I have a few brand models with and without safety clutch and would choose to have the option. Don't mean to put confusion here but this option can be a big dollar value and worth it imho.

good day

Floyd