puckers in waxed canvas stitching

[gottaknow]

No, sorry. A 211 would be a grey color.

Regards, Eric

[georgeandgracie]

Thanks for saving me the all-day trip to the auction!

I have not yet found a Singer 211G157 for sale. 211W151 models are out there, on Ebay and Craigslist, for $350 to $400 for a head only, plus shipping plus, of course, the servo motor.

Are 111 models, as opposed to 211, similar enough to be worth considering?

[Kohlrausch]

1 hour ago, georgeandgracie said:

Thanks for saving me the all-day trip to the auction!

I have not yet found a Singer 211G157 for sale. 211W151 models are out there, on Ebay and Craigslist, for $350 to $400 for a head only, plus shipping plus, of course, the servo motor.

Are 111 models, as opposed to 211, similar enough to be worth considering?

Hi,

 

a Pfaff 141 would also be needle feed with reverse. Pfaff 142 is the double needle version. Here's the manual https://www.libble.de/pfaff-142/p/743951/ 

Dunno how often they come up on your side of the Atlantic Ocean.

 

Greets

Ralf C.

[georgeandgracie]

Thank you, Ralf. That information gives me some more options.

[Ole South]

Consew 28 or Singer 78-3 are needle feed designed to do canvas (read Model A curtains and tops) and pop up from time to time. No reverse but poor mans spin and sew or lift foot and needle and draw back 2 stitches works well with upholstery. Why not just swap out the head and drive belt as you need it on your current table?

http://denver.craigslist.org/for/5587457264.html - Consew 18

Looks like there's a double needle singer for sale in Co Springs too ($500)

Edited May 21, 2016 by Ole South

[georgeandgracie]

Using my existing table and servo makes good sense. Certainly I don't have room to have two machines set up.

I might be able to use my Necchi BU if I stuck to size 69 thread and 8.25 ounce waxed canvas, which is the weight that is giving me the most problems with puckering. The trouble is that the polyester thread is so unruly and the machine lacks adequate means to tame it.

[Uwe]

Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm not following the logic on why a needle feed machine would cause less puckering than a compound (top+bottom+needle) feed machine. Can somebody elaborate on why and how a compound feed would cause more puckering?

The only thing I can come up with is that a needle feed machine may not move the material 100% of the way, but only, say, 95% due to the needle flexing a little as it's pulling the material forward. That slightly shortened material movement may alleviate puckering.  A properly adjusted compound feed machine will move the material 100% of the way (which is the point of that design).

Edited May 22, 2016 by Uwe

[gottaknow]

4 hours ago, Uwe said:

Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm not following the logic on why a needle feed machine would cause less puckering than a compound (top+bottom+needle) feed machine. Can somebody elaborate on why and how a compound feed would cause more puckering?

The only thing I can come up with is that a needle feed machine may not move the material 100% of the way, but only, say, 95% due to the needle flexing a little as it's pulling the material forward. That slightly shortened material movement may alleviate puckering.  A properly adjusted compound feed machine will move the material 100% of the way (which is the point of that design).

It's not that a compound feed isn't suitable for waxed canvas, it's just not necessary to produce a perfectly flat seam. Our company produces many waxed canvas products like jackets and chaps, pants, luggage, hats etc. our standard machine is the Juki 9010A. Our double needle machine is the Juki 3578A in 1/4" gauge. They are much faster than any compound feed machine available. That's why we use them. Sure we could use a walking foot machine, but our cost of manufacturing would increase. I do use walking foot machines for doing binding. We slit our own canvas for binding, and it's pretty slippery. Speed is less of an issue with binding and doesn't add much additional cost in that type of operation. We also use a lot of chainstitch machines on our "tin cloth", as we call it. The flatbed chain of choice is the Singer 300W, a magnificent needle feed machine. I have many different gauge sets for doing different operations. We full fell the jackets and pants and for closing the sleeves and inseams we use the Union Special 35800 feed off the arm machine, operations you can't perform on a flatbed. It's a double needle drop feed with a close-coupled puller. We also use overlock machines (type of chain stitch) to prevent any raw edges from unraveling. The have a differential feed system where there are two sets of feed dogs that is used to manage any puckering issues. The feed dogs can be set to travel at different rates, the rear set will usually move faster than the front set inducing a slight stretch making the seam perfectly flat.  Those machines are the Union Special 39500QW. The heavy version used for out seams is a Union Special 39800CY. It has a split tractor foot that will sew over densely thick seams without flag skipping. It's also a misconception about using bonded nylon or polyester thread to get the best results on plain canvas or waxed. Because the fabric is cotton, the bonded thread becomes a saw blade on the much weaker fibers of cotton. We use a polyester core thread wrapped with cotton, in T60. We also use T80 in the same thread. Apparel has to flex as it's worn and that flex with bonded thread will destroy a seam. We guarantee all of our products for life. 

I say all that simply to say that yes, you can get acceptable results with a walking foot machine, but the additional cost offers no improvement over a properly adjusted needle feed. There are also many more presser foot options which we have to have in manufacturing. For binding, absolutely I love my walkers.

Regards, Eric 

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by gottaknow

[Uwe]

Thanks Eric. I totally get that for a large operation like yours there are different considerations and decision criteria in play, compared to a craft person with one or two machines in the shop. In a factory the question usually is "which machine is the best option for this particular sewing operation?" For a crafter, the question usually is "How can I adjust this one versatile machine I have to do this particular sewing operation well?"

I have a strong feeling that a compound feed sewing machine is perfectly capable of producing non-puckered seams on waxed canvas, given the right thread, presser feet, and adjustments. I also strongly suspect that thread tension top+bottom plays a big role in puckering or lack thereof, contrary to statements made earlier in the thread.

Waxed canvas has been on my to-try list for a while. I just got a sample book of waxed canvas from Carr Textile  and I'm going to order a few yards to experiment with.

 

[gottaknow]

20 minutes ago, Uwe said:

Thanks Eric. I totally get that for a large operation like yours there are different considerations and decision criteria in play, compared to a craft person with one or two machines in the shop. In a factory the question usually is "which machine is the best option for this particular sewing operation?" For a crafter, the question usually is "How can I adjust this one versatile machine I have to do this particular sewing operation well?"

I have a strong feeling that a compound feed sewing machine is perfectly capable of producing non-puckered seams on waxed canvas, given the right thread, presser feet, and adjustments. I also strongly suspect that thread tension top+bottom plays a big role in puckering or lack thereof, contrary to statements made earlier in the thread.

Waxed canvas has been on my to-try list for a while. I just got a sample book of waxed canvas from Carr Textile  and I'm going to order a few yards to experiment with.

 

Not so much the thread tension as thread choice. I also failed to mention the marks that a walking foot machine leave on the top ply of fabric. We do get some feed dog tracking on the bottom, but with smooth presser feet on a needle feed we get little to none on the top. These garments end up hanging in stores a short time after we finish them and sell for $$$.

It would be interesting to see those seams that are puckered with a thread more suitable to the fabric. I'd be happy to send you some tin cloth to play with, just send me a pm with your address. Be prepared to clean wax out of all the nooks and crannies of your machine, I would take fuzz any day! 

Regards, Eric