Thread gets caught under hook occasionally

[Uwe]

I've had occasional trouble on my Consew 225 with the thread getting caught under the hook. Today I figured how it happens and I can make it happen. What I haven't figured out yet is how to fix it. The machine sews perfectly on a normal run and timing is generally spot-on. But if I happen to stop the machine at the exact wrong moment and touch the hand wheel, it may cause the thread to get caught under the hook.

Patient:"Doctor, if I do this it hurts"

Doctor: "Don't do that"

The "wrong" moment is exactly when the needle exits the material. This may happen occasionally and if turn the handwheel back just a tiny bit to bury the needle again for a turn, trouble ensues.

I'm wondering if the design of the new hook is contributing to the problem. The problem happened quite often with the old, original hook, which is why I installed a new hook. Alas, the new hook doesn't prevent the problem entirely.

I had messaged with Eric about his problem (before I figured out how to repeat it). The issue may be of general interest, so I'm throwing it up here to crowd source a potential solution and share the fix.

Here's the video of the problem:

 

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Uwe

[mikesc]

Would it help if the machine had something like the "thread guide with a felt pad" ( which is supposed to be drip fed with oil originally ) which is on my singer 211U166, while the thread can sometimes be a little slack above it, ( where the thread comes down from the "take up arm" ) below the felt pad and its holder, where the thread passes over the slight resistance of the felt pad ( and on down to the needle ) it is never so quite so slack ..Not saying necessarily to fit a felt pad and bar to your consew, but maybe introducing just a slight resistance along the path of the thread between the take up arm and the needle ?

Removing some of the slackness below the take up arm is what I'm thinking of..even a tiny amount of resistance might work, without affecting "normal" good stitch formation.?
Maybe just passing the thread across a felt pad stuck somewhere on that pathway with velcro , or double sided tape?, or just passing the thread across the "fluffy" part of some stitch on velcro somewhere where the thread passes over the machine body in that pathway just before it goes down to the thread guide on the needle bar above the needle..?

Edited June 5, 2016 by mikesc

[Wizcrafts]

Uwe;

Try re-positioning the slot in the check spring regulator bracket. If that doesn't matter, try lengthening the travel of the spring.

[Darren Brosowski]

A common issue with horizontal shuttles.

Vertical shuttles are less fussy

[Constabulary]

My 2 cents from just watching the Video:

I think you cannot  fix this even with more travel on the regulator spring. You just have to make the turn when the needle is in deeper position. The thread is "caught" in the needle hole (in the material) so I don`t think there is much you can do.

[Coeta]

I would also guess there is too much friction/stiffness on the thread at the needle hole as Constabulary suggested...

I had similar experience when I used that sticky double sided tape when preparing to sew the material together.. when I sewed I had endless trouble with the thread not been pulled up back quick enough by the regulator spring no matter how I adjusted it...that double sided tape was just to sticky for the thread to be pulled back  quick enough....after I removed that tape I had no issues...

With your experience you should be able to figure it out....

[gottaknow]

I still think your shaft timing is off one notch. Your top shaft is ahead your bottom shaft.  Either that or you little to no tension on your check spring. As Wiz suggested, your travel on your check spring is too short. If your shaft timing is good, and your check spring has enough tension and travel, your thread should not have any slack before the needle penetrates the material you're sewing. I don't think it's a position thing with where your hook stops. It happens too often from what you told me than a 1 in 360 chance of stopping and then touching the hand wheel slightly backwards. Unless someone has the bad habit of turning the hand wheel backwards all the time I think it's a machine setting. My 211's with clutch motors rarely do this and we use them 40 hours a week. 

Regards, Eric 

[brmax]

Interestingly I watched "ya got me" many rewinds also.

I considered in this order initially: Weird new hook style and its lower notch,  Then I looked and wondered at timing a bit, at this time remembered some mention of needle turned a bit for different issues talked about in some post.

Then considered the needle pushing the thread down? as maybe scarf hole a bit small, it was late.

I had also looked at the take up spring and kept saying to myself I think its design "way before me" was to be level across and it does look pretty close to that so I'm up in the air for a couple more video/look n see.

Took a look around here and considered the spring/hold down after take-up lever on my juki, like an oil pad on some others, but looked at the singer and no such design so religated that for further study.

Today I will commit to a spring further look and if adjustable try it, I do recall some mention of them broke yet looking perfect, fwiw.

It seems no matter my other mentions the spring should have some tension and with groove in the needle letting it return somewhat.

I'm here with toothpick at the cutting table in curious wait

Good luck on your mission Uwe

[mikesc]

 

Quote

like an oil pad on some others, but looked at the singer and no such design

Singer 211U166 does have an "oil pad" in the downward thread path, between the "take up arm" and the thread guide on the case just above the needle bar ( hence I mentioned it above ), normally it is for oiling the thread, but it does add a tiny little bit of extra friction on the down path, and thus there is less "slack" below it than above it, that said, I bow to the far greater experience of Eric and Wiz, probably a tiny tweak on the timing and or the spring is "the fix"..

[brmax]

Totally understand Mike, I was turning around looking at mine a 212, it I'm sure has the option in parts books but mine just a plain ole guide.

We are in agreement inquiring minds here as members are always interested in the great experience others share.

I had to step over and took a better look at a 1508 and sorry! spring has no issue here at this point as it the hook is way past this take up spring in its cycle, I'm seeing its finished its job at needle material entry so slack is now in design ?(I think and ask)

Now am I in school?

I am running solarfix in that machine so the same action is keeping thread in memory for a 1/2" or the hook gap anyway, but this could very well be the same with some other poly or nylon so I am considering twist in thread also at the moment.

I would say the 1341 has many hook aspects of others and I don't know enough to say which but will go on to say the hook has a plate on the bottom and whatever other reasons it does infact help curtail this "post" issue. The hook here has a slightly different thread resting area but with poly it comes out of that machined designed groove and as mentioned kept in check with the plate and so as hook follows through forced back in before the final release.

So at this point of my homework interest, My stuff is wacked and or I need another consideration with threads also.

Coffee time, and thanks for the run through no doubt always of interest

Floyd

 

[Uwe]

So I spent a few hours checking on things that folks had suggested (thanks to all!). Alas, I really could not find any adjustment that was out of spec or one that I could tweak to reliably resolve the problem. The springy-ness of the bonded polyester may exacerbate the problem. Nylon and Cotton may not want to"spring" downward as readily as this polyester thread does. Alas, when sewing for outdoor applications, Polyester is among the few durable choices.

I started considering the hook design itself and comparing it other hooks I had on hand. I recently got a Pfaff 545 which has a notably different hook design, that I think makes a big difference for this particular problem.

I decided to make a slight modification to the Consew's Kobani hook and add a very thin stainless steel plate that keeps the thread from "falling down" if it goes slack for some reason. Other hook designs have this type of plate and it seemed like a good thing to try. My fix is reversible with simple nail polish remover and in a worst case scenario the hook itself is cheap at around $30 in case we need to go back to square one.

I had actually sold the machine a few weeks ago and the new owner, being a novice, ran into trouble quite frequently with this particular issue, causing frustration with an otherwise perfectly good machine.

I think the fix is a good one for my particular situation. I'm not suggesting that anybody else should do this.

Below is the updated video with footage added at the end to show the fix I decided on. Sorry about the occasional muffled voice. I know I need to step up my microphone game if I am going to be doing more talkies.

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Uwe

[gottaknow]

Clever fix for a diy'er, but using superglue on the hook of a machine I had sold isn't something I'd ever do. First good big birdnest, a wandering screwdriver, tweezers, etc. and your fix pops off or gets bent down still pinching the thread. I've seen things like this attempted many times and they always fail. Sorry Uwe, just being honest. If I had bought this machine and discovered the work around later, I'd be upset. If you're going to rebuild and sell machines, this is one of those things you should avoid doing. Again, just being completely honest. 

Regards, Eric 

[brmax]

I found the old singer 212,  I have has the plate on the bottom of the hook also it is probably smaller if it did match in thickness. I think that one your working on has a bigger bobbin. Maybe a good time to measure as its in the "proto type staging".

It sure has my interest especially seeing the threaded holes that I could see being used, possibly a bigger singer or other model big 255 consew.

I did notice the 1508 I mentioned didn't have the plate so will take a look next time for results when I put poly in.

 projects for the new month always busy

Good day

Floyd

 

[Uwe]

I appreciate your feedback and honesty Eric. Time will tell if the fix lasts and you may very well be right about it not lasting. But it's not quite same as painted-over bondo on a car to hide evidence of an accident. I'm always upfront with what I do or did to a machine. I'm on good terms with the buyer and we both investigated the problem together. We were delighted when we finally could reproduce the problem to know how it happened, and agreed that it was basically a design flaw. I think he'll appreciate the fix (I even sent him a link to the video) but if the fix doesn't last, I'll install a new hook for him. Alas, with an unmodified hook, we're back to getting thread caught under the hook, which is super annoying. Is this simply an unavoidable design flaw of this class of machines and hooks? The more modern hook designs all seem to have some design element in the hook to minimize or prevent this failure mode.

Are there any hooks out there that fit the Singer 111W155 class of machines and don't have this flaw? I bought the Koban hook because I thought they're one of the better brands for hooks. I'd prefer to just install a new hook that doesn't get thread caught on the underside by design, rather than operator skill or luck.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Uwe

[gottaknow]

1 hour ago, Uwe said:

I appreciate your feedback and honesty Eric. Time will tell if the fix lasts and you may very well be right about it not lasting. But it's not quite same as painted-over bondo on a car to hide evidence of an accident. I'm always upfront with what I do or did to a machine. I'm on good terms with the buyer and we both investigated the problem together. We were delighted when we finally could reproduce the problem to know how it happened, and agreed that it was basically a design flaw. I think he'll appreciate the fix (I even sent him a link to the video) but if the fix doesn't last, I'll install a new hook for him. Alas, with an unmodified hook, we're back to getting thread caught under the hook, which is super annoying. Is this simply an unavoidable design flaw of this class of machines and hooks? The more modern hook designs all seem to have some design element in the hook to minimize or prevent this failure mode.

Are there any hooks out there that fit the Singer 111W155 class of machines and don't have this flaw? I bought the Koban hook because I thought they're one of the better brands for hooks. I'd prefer to just install a new hook that doesn't get thread caught on the underside by design, rather than operator skill or luck.

I'll take a look at my spare hooks and see what I have.  Stay tuned. 

Regards, Eric 

[Uwe]

2 hours ago, brmax said:

I found the old singer 212,  I have has the plate on the bottom of the hook also

Great find! I think you may be onto something here. The Singer 212 hook design has a special hook thread guide "bridge" that get screwed into place. My hook actually has threaded holes on the bottom as you noticed - I didn't know what they were for. It would be NICE if the Singer 212 hook thread guide bridge would fit my hook (it's actually a Hirose HSH-11-55, not a Koban, as I stated earlier). Clearance may be an issue tough - it's super tight. But a screwed-in-place bridge would certainly be more confidence inducing than a glued, cantilevered tab.

 

[Uwe]

I had also considered putting on a full circular ring on the underside of the hook instead of just a cantilevered tab, but I was worried about covering up the threaded holes, haha! There are spacer shims available (intended for machinists)  that would be a perfect match size-wise, available in various thicknesses from several millimeters to 1/10th of a millimeter: 

[brmax]

I hope it works out for some parts, with Eric and some measures its a go.

Good work guys

Floyd

[gottaknow]

Uwe, what is the diameter of that hook shaft?

Regards, Eric

[Constabulary]

Now that I see the pictures... I´m using an original OEM DUERKOPP hook with replaceable shaft in my 111G156 which also has a "deflector tin" under the hook. Maybe some Companies have discovered this problem earlier. Thats probably why I never ran into this problem. The DUERKOPP 239 and 241 and the like are using a lot of Singer 111 compatible parts.

Pic 1 Singer hook on the right in Pic 2 on the left. All other parts are DUERKOPP

 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Constabulary

[gottaknow]

1 hour ago, gottaknow said:

Uwe, what is the diameter of that hook shaft?

Regards, Eric

I have an original Singer hook out of a 111. If you verify the shaft diameter and the diameter of the cam that drives the latch opener, it's yours for the cost of shipping.

Regards, Eric

[Uwe]

Eric, the shaft diameter of the hook in the Consew measures 9.5mm, the cam measures 12.5mm in diameter. I appreciate the offer of the genuine Singer hook - but hold on to yours for a little while longer. I just picked up a Singer 111W155 in St. Louis last weekend - my first ever genuine boat anchor with a bent main shaft, I think! On the plus side, it has an original Singer hook in it that I'll investigate. That Singer 111W155 boat anchor was fortunately accompanied by a gem of a Pfaff 545C H4N10. It all balances out, I guess.

Constabulary, using a Dürkopp 239/241 style hook in a Singer 111 class machine sounds like a very promising path for a "proper" fix and a nice upgrade - I'll have to look into that! Do you have a part number that goes with that Dürkopp hook (and shaft)? HDU249 seems to be the compatible Hirose part number. 

 

[Constabulary]

I know there are alt least 3 different hooks for the 239.

One is for small bobbins and has a bar across the bobbin case like the 111w hooks have, one has a bobbin case cap like Pfaff or Adler and the 3rd is a large size hook with cap. I think the one you linked is the cap type hook but w/o the deflector tin and shaft. But I think it needs a different hook saddle. Here is a picture from an older 239 parts list.

Maybe this one could be an option but it´s just a guess (because of the extra deflector)

https://www.college-sewing.co.uk/store/HSH1215MM5-HOOK-and-BASE-HIROSE

Edited June 7, 2016 by Constabulary

[Constabulary]

This seems to be the one but no shaft

http://www.miketony.com.tw/en/2-1958-34698/product/HOOK-130-13-115-id182703.html

however - the HDU249 is cheap on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/HDU-249-249-592-Hirose-Sewing-Machine-Hook-For-Durkopp-249-541-Machine-NEW-/371441580712

Edited June 7, 2016 by Constabulary

[Uwe]

I ordered the cheap HDU-249 from Ebay yesterday just to have it on hand for a closer inspection and to explore.

Constabulary, I'm curious about your specific Singer 111G156 setup with the DA hook. Did you do the change-over yourself or did it come that way? Did you have to replace the hook saddle or other parts, or is the hook+shaft a direct drop-in replacement on that machine. Any pictures of that setup would be greatly appreciated!

I couldn't find your DA OEM hook on DA's sew24.com parts website. Perhaps I wasn't plugging in the right part numbers. Where do you buy your DA OEM parts?

I'm also striking out on a source for the modular shaft that goes with the hook head.

The Cerliani website is a treasure trove of hook related information!  

Hooks like that Hirose hook (HSH1215MM5) you found with the extra deflector are also made by Cerliani. They call it the heavy thread version of that hook. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Uwe