Thread Tension Help

[venator]

So my adler 467 is acting up.  Honestly it's been stitching great but all of a sudden it's decided that the tension will randomly change.  So part of a project is perfect then suddenly the tension goes all squirelly.  What I mean is that it'll be stitching fine then suddenly my top thread is pulling through and the bottom thread is sloppy and all over the place.  Thoughts?  It's a new needle, correct thread and needle size.

 

It seems to happen more if the leather is dyed and finished as when I run it on raw leather there hasn't been an issue but I can't dye it all after it's stitched. . .

 

[TinkerTailor]

First make sure the machine is lubed then check  the standard tension adjustments, and make sure thread path is correct, thread is seated in the tension discs, and both top and bottom thread paths are clean. Usually it is a threading or cleaning issue when the tension suddenly changes. If the thread path is perfect,

Switch bobbins for one you are sure has been wound evenly. I wound a couple bobbins a while back and didn't notice that the thread was hanging up on my thread stand. The bobbins ended up with sections wound tight and sections wound loosely and sewed exactly as you described. The other thing to check is that the bobbin tension adjuster screw didn't back itself out. My machine did this because the set screw that locks the tension screw was missing from the factory. After i reset the tension, and installed the setscrew, all was good.

If this is the machine Gottaknow fixed, I would bet all of the pesos that it is not due to a missing screw.....He may have a screw loose, but he would never give one to someone else.......

[venator]

It's hard to know if the bobbins wind evenly on my machine as I have to crank the servo up to the highest setting and then nudge the bobbin with my fingers to get it going, sometimes it'll stop in the middle of winding and need a nudge.
  That's with the tension all way off on the winder but obviously that's too loose. . .

 

You can see on these pics how the stitching on the thin stuff was fine (around the zipper, middle of the pockets, along the side between the pockets) but the moment I added that outer layer all of a sudden it goes to total shit. . .  That outer layer is about 5oz vegetan that's dyed and finished so nothing new or surprising or bizarre.

If I take undyed pieces of all this leather and stack them the machine performs perfectly.  I'm really stumped.  This happens both when I glue the pieces before stitching and when I used sew through basting tape. . .

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

Are you saying that this doesn't happen if you sew raw veg-tan of the same thickness? If so, does it include glued or taped raw veg?

Have you checked the thread spool to ensure that the windings are not criss-crossed, or falling under the spool, or twisting over the thread guide on top of the thread stand? Have you looked at the thread that goes around the upper tension disks to ensure that it is staying down around the center?

Make sure that you cut the thread off flush with the holes in the bobbin. A stub sticking out can mess with the tension. loosen the bobbin tension spring and blow out any thread residue.

After all of these steps, change to titanium coated needles whenever you sew through basting tape or glue.

[venator]

Correct, it doesn't happen when I sew raw vegetan of the same thickness. 

 

I have checked the thread path and ensured it's all moving freely and I do cut the stub as close to the bobbin as possible (I read that from you once and have made sure to do it since).  I will check everything else I you have listed and i can find and see what happens.

[Wizcrafts]

I think that titanium needles will make a difference. I have to use them on both patchers and my walking foot machine because I use leather tape all the time.

[venator]

I will look into it.  Unfortunately new needles are a 2-3 hour drive away and only available during the week so it's a day trip.  lol.  Stupid Toronto.

 

Assuming I can find someone who carries them. . .

 

[venator]

So I just glued some raw vegetan together an tried stitching and it went perfectly. . .

 

So maybe it's the dye or the resoline?  Which is a problem befcause I can't dye and finish after it's assembled. . .

[Wizcrafts]

Can you apply the top finish after you sew? It is a clear coat, right?

Oh, I forgot to mention that you can order titanium needle on eBay, or from Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines. or other dealers, and have them mailed to you.

[mikesc]

I just read about resoline ( never used it, don't even know if one can get it here, but the description of it's properties sounds familiar ), flexible acrylic waterproof clear coat, which I suspect would give your leather a higher friction co-efficient after you apply it, and may even make the leather below the surface slightly "stickier" than raw veg tan.
So..if it is maybe making the leather stick to the thread, the stickiness would vary with the characteristics of the leather area that the resoline is applied to, leather isn't going to be consistently absorbent , even after tanning, especially veg tanning ( fats and oils in the skin etc make each square millimetre slightly different in the way it would absorb an acrylic based paint, dye or clear coat ), so if the thread is sticking even a minute amount from time to time, the tensions will be off..Try going up a size on your needle ( use the next size up ) whilst keeping the same thread size, bigger hole may help the thread to "slip" rather than stick..
May help..worth a try..HTH :)

I think a titanium coated needle may also make a smoother hole ( a sort of "polish the sides of the hole as they pierce" or maybe they even make a minutely fractionally larger hole ? ) which would explain why they help in the cases of "sticky" material. you could try using a larger needle while you wait for your titanium needles to arrive.

Edited September 22, 2016 by mikesc

[dikman]

I thought the same thing as Mike but couldn't put it as elegantly. My limited experience is that dying the leather can make it stiffer and tougher to sew. I was going to suggest increasing the needle size too, but again Mike beat me to it.

[venator]

Okay so after checking the thread path and cleaning it as much as possilble here's where things sit.

through dyed and finished leather it will pull on about every 5th stitch.  Sometimes the top thread becomes visible on the bottom, sometimes the bottom thread on the top. . .

If I use the roller guide then the bottom thread becomes so loose I can pull at it with my fingers as in the pic above.

We did bend a needle a bit back when the machine caught a pre-existing hole and pulled the needle off track.

Thoughts?  Is my needle misaligned?  I obviously changed needles and have a few times in this process.  How do I check this?

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

Even though I know nothing about your model of machine, here are a couple thoughts.  Have you started a new spool of thread recently? I have quite a few spools that my Cowboy 4500 absolutely will not sew with.  It was not cheap or odd lot thread. I ordered it from a supplier that I bought from for years, and it always worked on my Landis One and still will (of course just about ANY thread will work on THAT machine).  I'd try going up a needle size, and it might work, or it might not, just depended on what I was sewing and how thick.  The only thread that seems to work consistently and without issues in my 4500 is the nylon thread from Weaver. I don't know where they get it from, and I don't care, because as long as they don't switch suppliers, I will continue to order it from them, sometimes just to fill a small order.  Two spools of thread can look and feel identical, but in use, perform very differently. 

The other thing you might try if you haven't already, is to pull the thread out of your machine completely. Take the spool off the thread rack and run your fingers down the length of thread that is hanging from the spool. Thread will develop kinks as it comes off the spool. Again, some threads are worse than others, but I've had some that I could count on having to pull out and de-kink after sewing for a given amount of time.  I had a Randall that was extremely picky about that.  I tried running the thread up through a little eyebolt attached to the ceiling to try to eliminate or reduce the kinks, but in the end, I'd still have to pull the thread out of the machine and straighten it out.  Good luck to you and I hope you resolve your issues.

[venator]

1 minute ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Even though I know nothing about your model of machine, here are a couple thoughts.  Have you started a new spool of thread recently? I have quite a few spools that my Cowboy 4500 absolutely will not sew with.  It was not cheap or odd lot thread. I ordered it from a supplier that I bought from for years, and it always worked on my Landis One and still will (of course just about ANY thread will work on THAT machine).  I'd try going up a needle size, and it might work, or it might not, just depended on what I was sewing and how thick.  The only thread that seems to work consistently and without issues in my 4500 is the nylon thread from Weaver. I don't know where they get it from, and I don't care, because as long as they don't switch suppliers, I will continue to order it from them, sometimes just to fill a small order.  Two spools of thread can look and feel identical, but in use, perform very differently. 

The other thing you might try if you haven't already, is to pull the thread out of your machine completely. Take the spool off the thread rack and run your fingers down the length of thread that is hanging from the spool. Thread will develop kinks as it comes off the spool. Again, some threads are worse than others, but I've had some that I could count on having to pull out and de-kink after sewing for a given amount of time.  I had a Randall that was extremely picky about that.  I tried running the thread up through a little eyebolt attached to the ceiling to try to eliminate or reduce the kinks, but in the end, I'd still have to pull the thread out of the machine and straighten it out.  Good luck to you and I hope you resolve your issues.

I appreciate the advice, I've had this problem with multiple spools and multiple bobbin winds so I doubt that's it.  That was one of the first things I've checked as I once got a spool that my machine just hated for some reason.