Measurement system - Metric/Imperial?

[Pavel]

Hello, I'm brand new to this forum as well as to my interest in things leather-working related.  At this stage I'm reading a bit of every topic just to get my bearings, and soon will start to look into ordering some books and perhaps a few basic hand tools.  I have a quick question about the hobby or trade of leather-working; and that is to find out what is the predominant way of measuring?  Do we use metric or those infernal fractions - the imperial system?  Or is it a personal choice?  I landed here by serendipitous chance, when I decided that I needed a new hobby, and randomly chose sewing. In exploring the world of sewing I found that there were probably aspects of it that would limit my interests to a few niche areas due to my dislike of certain details. I don't for instance like quilting nor clothing - and that seems to be about 90% of the sewing community focus. ( Fortunately I have a lot in interest in hammocking and hammock making - so likely, it's not a complete misdirection ) But one of the things that struck me as odd was that the whole sewing universe seems stuck in the imperial swamp of inefficient measurement taking.  My brain says - c'mon man, don't do that to me! :D

Seeing that rulers are available in both systems - how does the field of leather-working tend to operate? Any guidance and words to save me grief? 

[Dwight]

I think you will find that the majority of us on here are into inches, feet, yards, etc.

FYI, leather is typically measured in ounces, . . . and usually addressed in the format x/y ounces:  for example 4/5 means at least 4 ounces in thickness, . . . but not over 5 ounces.  Ounces are each 1/64 of an inch.  Therefore, . . . a piece of leather that is exactly 8 ounces in thickness would be 8/64" or 1/8 of an inch.  

A few from Au, . . . UK, . . . Sweden, . . . etc. seem to be entombed in the mack-rack or M&M ideology.

Can't be too hard on em though, . . . that is what they learned growing up, . . . and sometimes it is hard to change.  

Fortunately, . . . I can relate most of their posts to 7.62 mm or 5.56 mm as I just happen to be well versed in those two measurements.  If I were not, . . . I'd have to google their mm measurements every time.

May God bless,

Dwight

Edited September 27, 2016 by northmount
Changed 12 oz to 8 to match description

[JLSleather]

When purchasing leather in the U.S., you'll be billed by teh square foot (not the square meter) for leather which is gauged by the "ounce" (not the mm).  Beyond that, I don't know if it matters.

[fivewayswelshcobs]

I agree many of us this side of the pond do have a very confused system, we measure thickness in mm but still work in imperial for other measurements some buckles are now coming in metric but since the straps are 1/2" 5/8" etc I still ask for them in imperial.

In other areas I still cook using ounces, pounds etc, the fields are measured in acres but officially in paperwork they are measured in hectares ( who on earth can visualise a hectare ie 2.471 acres) . When we started farming livestock were in cwt  now in kilos so we often spend most of the time translating measurements. It must be fun for youngsters trying make sense of all this as some do not understand imperial measurements at all unfortunately this makes me sound old and grumpy but no just grumpy and not so old. I also tell customers I still work in English ie feet and inches.

[Pavel]

Thanks all.  I was mostly curious how when we draw out a pattern to leather ... if we use fractions or mm. Should I get a ruler in metric, or inches? 

[Northmount]

42 minutes ago, Pavel said:

Thanks all.  I was mostly curious how when we draw out a pattern to leather ... if we use fractions or mm. Should I get a ruler in metric, or inches? 

Get both rules, saves time.  Else convert to your preferred units and mark up your patterns to suit.  Many of my patterns have no measurements, just full size, lay it out, mark around it and cut!

Tom

[TinkerTailor]

I tend to switch back and forth. I was brought up imperial on a farm but used metric in school. I use imperial most of the time but when math comes in, i sometimes switch. Say you are trying to make a fringe with 4 strips out of a 4 inch piece of leather, It is going to be 3 cuts. That works out to 1.33 of an inch. Find a ruler with that number on it. Yes, you can work out the nearest fraction but this is another step.  In metric, 100mm(4") divided by 3 is 33.3mm.  This is easy to find on a metric ruler.

When dealing with feet and inches, division and multiplication gets even harder. This is why machinists work in thousandths of an inch and not fractions.

For rough estimates 1"=25mm and 1 foot = 300mm

Also, chevy fans out there, a pound is 454 grams.

A kilo is 2.2 pounds. A quart of milk is about a kilo.

[Northmount]

And a quart of milk is about one litre.

Tom

[Olle P]

Being located in Europe it's a must to handle both the US Imperial (not to be confused with the slightly different British Imperial) and the SI systems interchangeably.

A lot of the litterature is written in USA, using imp, while European retailers often provide product information in SI units.

What seems like the only globally adopted standard is to sell leather by square feet when sold by size.

[LumpenDoodle2]

I prefer using metric, as it makes most sense to me (10 fingers, 10 toes), and reading this forum is a bit confusing re the US oz.   I have a printed out conversion card stuck on my workshop wall to work out what 3oz leather is in real money (as we say here in Scotland).

The leather suppliers I use measure leather thickness in metric, but hide size in imperial.

Saying that, I find myself constantly swopping from imperial to metric and back, even while measuring the same piece of leather.    It's just second nature to translate back and forth for me.

I have noticed that most UK customers (especially English) order belts in inches, and European customers in metric.    

Edited September 28, 2016 by LumpenDoodle2

[TonyRV2]

Use and embrace both systems, its really not that difficult.  To that end order a few measuring devices for both systems and for those times where it doesn't much matter, then use the system of your preference, though it may be a better idea to use the one that you DON'T prefer.  I think the real problem that people have is one of visualization.  In your minds eye, you may have become accustomed to visualizing what in inch looks like, but have no idea what a centimeter of length might look like (2.54cm = 1").  Or the reverse may be equally as true.  If you simply force yourself to embrace both systems, you'll have your brain wrapped around it in no time at all. Right now I think I'll head over to McDonald's for a .1136 Kilo-er with cheese.  

Edited September 28, 2016 by TonyRV2

[Dwight]

I would probably also prefer as LumpenDoodle2 said, . . . to use the M&M system, . . . 

But if you had been here in the US when it was attempted a couple decades back, . . . y'all would understand our reluctance.

I don't recollect which way it was, . . . but the Japanese version of metric was one size and the German version was either a tad smaller or a tad bigger.

You had to have three sets of wrenches to work on cars, . . . or at least two.

Same went for screws, . . . the phillips head on a Japanese screw did not mesh with a German screwdriver, . . .  and it was so disconcerting, . . . a lot of us just balked and said forget it.  

Even now, . . . mechanics still have to have two sets of wrenches, . . . 

But at least in leatherwork, . . . a knife cut is a knife cut, . . . no M&M or Inch, . .  . just cut.

May God bless,

Dwight

[zuludog]

Like many traditional crafts, leatherwork has developed its own way of doing things, but it is straightforward enough once it has been explained

Measuring & describing the thickness of leather in the Imperial system, ie in inches, uses the fact that for a fixed area of anything, as it becomes thicker, so it becomes heavier. Thus weight can be used to indicate thickness. Think of stacking up some dinner plates (of the same type); as you add a plate or two the stack becomes taller or thicker, but it also becomes heavier

With leather the fixed area is one square foot, and it is assumed that one square foot of leather 1/64th inch thick weighs one ounce. Thus 4 ounce leather is 4/64" thick or 1/16"; 8 ounce leather is 8/64" or 1/8"; and so on. In practice there is no need to work out the actual thickness as you very quickly get used to using just the weights

The other system is to measure the thickness directly, in millimetres, and shouldn't need any further explanation.

Most countries now use the metric system for measuring leather. Britain and some of its old Commonwealth countries have only recently changed, and the Imperial system lingers on here & there. You will see that most suppliers of leather, tools, and materials quote both systems, but the metric system is gradually becoming more usual.

USA is now the only country in the world that has not officially adopted the metric system, and because it dominates the leatherwork business, leather still continues to be measured in the Imperial system

I was brought up to use both Imperial & Metric, but now I use Metric to measure leather thickness

I would buy rulers with dual scales, or one of each type

On the homepage of Tandy's website, down at the bottom there is a link to conversion or comparison charts

[HENDREFORGAN]

18 hours ago, Dwight said:

. . .

A few from Au, . . . UK, . . . Sweden, . . . etc. seem to be entombed in the mack-rack or M&M ideology.

Can't be too hard on em though, . . . that is what they learned growing up, . . . and sometimes it is hard to change.  

Fortunately, . . . I can relate most of their posts to 7.62 mm or 5.56 mm as I just happen to be well versed in those two measurements.  If I were not, . . . I'd have to google their mm measurements every time.

May God bless,

Dwight

A less than respectful set of comments Dwight, not even accurate.

Like many my age - and older - I was educated in feet and inches and spent pounds, shillings and pence.

Do I yearn for those earlier times? No, not at all.

The reason is very simple and as clear as glass.  The metric system or "decimation" if you prefer is about as easy as it can get, everything works on a factor or 10.  Easy.

To quote one of Western Europe's finest comedians . . . "May your god go with you".

Speaking as one whose daily life is blissfully ignorant of guns and ammunition sizes . . .

[LumpenDoodle2]

Just a quick mention.   As to US and metric introduction and the me hanic, in the UK, we have has BSF(? please correct me on this), Whitworth, and the gods now what other nut/bolt/screw measurement.

And that was before wonderful metric was brought in.   When I was 11/12 years of age, the UK government brought in decimilisation coinage.   I sent a prayer of thanks to every god I knew, and some I didn't, as me and pounds shillings and pence never saw eye to eye.

[gary]

BSF was, I believe, British Standard Fine.  There was also BSW (Whitworth) and BSP (British Standard  Pipeline).  

I was also brought up on pounds, shillings and pence but had to change at school when we decimalised. Later, when I went into nursing we had to learn to convert drachms and  minims and so on into SI units.  Also had to learn some Latin to translate prescriptions.

However, it's nearly 50 years since we went decimal and most people are still happy with feet and inches.  And road distances are still in miles, the warning markers for level crossings are still at 80 yard increments and most things are packaged by the dozen.  We never really got our heads round this funny 'European' system.

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by gary

[EfrainBG]

21 hours ago, Pavel said:

Thanks all.  I was mostly curious how when we draw out a pattern to leather ... if we use fractions or mm. Should I get a ruler in metric, or inches? 

I draw my patterns using inches. It's easier for me to measure, mark and do math in my head with fractions, even though I grew up using the metric system. Also, as someone mentioned above, much of the hardware used is described using imperial units. It makes more sense to me to stick to one system to work out aspect ratios or scale up or down when drawing than to convert back and forth between systems.
 

[HENDREFORGAN]

There are two distinct lines of discussion here, one the question that is there a universal, call it international, standard for quantifying the leather trade and two how simply crossing a countries borders can change this entirely.

All things leather will, hopefully, hang onto it's unique position as a way of life that refuses to be digitized.  The animals that provide the hides and the workers who remove them to continue on into the tanning process do not come in neat increments so it's not unreasonable that the trade should hold onto traditional terms.  However things are changing as our world gets smaller.  Both of the two suppliers I use, Abbey England and Metropolitan Leather, have long since dropped their use of "weight to measure thickness" and ALL their products are shown in millimetres . . yet they also give guide sizes for the hides in feet, inches and square feet.  I suspect they, and others, made that chioce as in the worldwide trade of leather by far the most use the metric system.

Does it matter that another country uses different words and terms? No, it's simply the same as understanding another language, your brain effortlessly converts that at faster than the speed of sound and, as has been said, a "cut is a cut is a cut".  Many years ago, whilst devouring episodes of "the New Yankee Workshop", I could never understand the principle for sizing nails that Norm Abraham used . . he would say "a penny nail" . . how on earth could you decide to make the cabinet of your dreams on the cost of the damn nails!!!  Years later I found out he was using a "penny" as a thickness gauge for the ironmongery. But then he was also using a definition for a coin that isn't even technically in your legal coinage!

May your cuts always be as you want them to be no matter whatever language you use and your straight-edges always be straight no matter what measurements are on the side of the ruler your using.

[TinkerTailor]

So officially, only Myanmar, Liberia and the United States still use imperial. The rest of the world is metric. Just saying.

[Boriqua]

Its going to be personal preference. I prefer and use the metric system. Was never a math whiz except when it came to handling other peoples money so a system built on the number 10 works for me just fine. Once upon a time I did a lot of cad drawings for space planning. I did it all in metric and then just had my program convert it for contractors.

[Pavel]

well, two set of rulers it is then.  And fingers crossed that the imperial ones can gather dust. 

I was born in Europe and started counting everything like I could my toes. Then off to Canada .. and confusion.  Just as I got the hang of it, sort of, we enlightened ourselves and went to Metric. Then I moved myself to the US and back to that system where the mistakes are easy.   Well it seems that I've been well trained for leather-working. 

[Dwight]

9 hours ago, Pavel said:

well, two set of rulers it is then.  And fingers crossed that the imperial ones can gather dust. 

I was born in Europe and started counting everything like I could my toes. Then off to Canada .. and confusion.  Just as I got the hang of it, sort of, we enlightened ourselves and went to Metric. Then I moved myself to the US and back to that system where the mistakes are easy.   Well it seems that I've been well trained for leather-working. 

Many of us are in the same boat:  grew up in the US, . . . I can measure almost anything we commonly use or work with because I know dimensions of my fingers, . . . the span of my hand, . . . the span of my arms, . . . the length of my step, . . . etc.

Off to the far East for several years in the US Navy, . . . got introduced to metric, . . . about the time I got comfortable (sort of) I'm back in the US.

Later, . . . the US has an extra curricular affair with metric, . . . didn't go well, . . . but foreign cars and tools we buy are metric, . . . so like you said Pavel, . . . two rulers.

In my shop I have three tool boxes for wrenches.  One devoted to metric, . . . one to normal, . . . and one that houses tools that don't care.

Just a fact of this "modern", . . . global economy world we live in.

May God bless,

Dwight

[TinkerTailor]

On 9/28/2016 at 0:41 PM, HENDREFORGAN said:

There are two distinct lines of discussion here, one the question that is there a universal, call it international, standard for quantifying the leather trade and two how simply crossing a countries borders can change this entirely.

All things leather will, hopefully, hang onto it's unique position as a way of life that refuses to be digitized.  The animals that provide the hides and the workers who remove them to continue on into the tanning process do not come in neat increments so it's not unreasonable that the trade should hold onto traditional terms.  However things are changing as our world gets smaller.  Both of the two suppliers I use, Abbey England and Metropolitan Leather, have long since dropped their use of "weight to measure thickness" and ALL their products are shown in millimetres . . yet they also give guide sizes for the hides in feet, inches and square feet.  I suspect they, and others, made that chioce as in the worldwide trade of leather by far the most use the metric system.

May your cuts always be as you want them to be no matter whatever language you use and your straight-edges always be straight no matter what measurements are on the side of the ruler your using.

I printed off a chart that has Ounces/Irons/Inches/Millimeters/decimal inch and it is prominently on the wall of my shop for quick reference. They are all over the internet.  For measuring skins and other materials, I have a 0-1" Starrett #230 machinists micrometer.  I will bring it into the store as well.  If  am not near the conversion chart, It has a decimal to fractional conversion chart etched into it (although I admit I have most decimals to fractions memorized and don't use it much)      All I have to remember is 1/16 inch=1.6mm=4 ounce. If I do it this way, I can switch between units really fast. Like saying to tandy the leather seller, sorry that skin actually measures out to just over 4 oz, nowhere near the 5-6 advertised

Being in Canada we desperately want to be metric, but those pesky yankees have to use their inches and pounds. It doesn't help that the entire prairies was gridded out on a 1 mile grid, making every back road placed on even miles, or the odd half. "How far is jacks place?" " Well lets see, there are 3 roads, then they skip one, then there is the access road to the old smith place, and Jacks place is next. So 4'n'half miles."

Then you get to the highway and it is 100kms/hr and 21kms to town.......

 

[stelmackr]

When I lived in England I went to a wood store and pleased to purchase 2" x 4" by the meter and the 2by4's were finished undersized like ours in the US. ;-)

Bob Stelmack

[TinkerTailor]

How many hands tall is that horse you got again? He eats how many bushels a week? He sure tears up the first 4 furlongs, but lags the last 4.........