"Make America Great Again" and the leather trade

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, billybopp said:

I have a term for the current mentality in the US, and to some extent worldwide,  "The WalMart Society".  It doesn't matter the consequences, just get it cheap.  I, for one, refuse to shop at or support their store.  It would be bad enough if, as well publicized, WalMart (and others) didn't just screw over their employees.  Less publicized is the way that they screw over their suppliers.  A few years ago, I spoke with a VP of a well known paper products supplier, and was told that WalMart sends in teams to inspect the books of their suppliers, performs their own cost analysis and then negotiates what price they will pay for products.  They offer a take it or leave it deal, which leaves virtually no profit for the supplier, who then has to decide, from a marketing standpoint, whether they can afford to not have their product on the shelves of the largest retailer around.  Sounds like a good business plan for WalMart, doesn't it?  The supplier doesn't really profit, and can't then afford to raise the standard of living for THEIR employees, ensuring that THEY no have to buy their needs as cheaply as possible.   It also ensures that WalMart's small competitors likely cannot match their deal.    Unfortunately, other large retailers are now using the same sort of practices.  It's a downward spiral all around that can only be stopped by all of us.  If we're willing.

YES! My brother-in-law is in a management position at a dairy plant in another state. They have, in the past, bottled milk for Walmart and HATE Walmart for the exact reasons you stated. And I believe that Walmart has done more to hasten the acceptance of this mindset than anything else in the country

 

2 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

There is basically no demand for anything that lasts and repairable because people are conditioned to put no value in "old stuff".....Funny thing is, the new widget is the same price as the old one but way lower quality. Who cares that it broke, There is a new one now.......Once you start attempting to fix stuff you quickly see how crappy it was made. It then informs your future purchasing decisions, "am i going to be able to replace that cord/hose if/when it breaks?"

I fight this battle daily. The reason there is no demand for something repairable is in part because labor has gotten so ungodly high. My automotive repair shop is at $85 and hour now.  When I tell people I'm at $45, they say "Oh that isn't bad". But then I tell them how many hours it will take to reline a saddle or put in a new seat. About half of them go buy a new cheap saddle for not a lot more money.  I think part of our problem is too big a percentage of our income goes toward things that do not :  1. Keep us alive.  2. improve our standard of living   3. Make us money.   The number one drain on income that I can see is insurance premiums.  I know, I know, where would we be without it "If something bad happened"?  That is how those scumbags have gotten the American people to buy the useless crap for the last 75 years or so. Fear. Nothing more, nothing less.  As far as I'm concerned, insurance companies rate right down there with most lawyers, leaches and bottom feeders who will bleed you dry and when the money's gone, oh well too bad, so sad. As far as providing jobs, how many people grow up thinking, "Ya know, I'd really love to work for an insurance company when I grow up!"  I believe it is the mind numbing number of useless jobs that people are forced to do to survive that contributes to the epidemic drug and alcohol abuse in this country.  Big business DOED NOT WANT small business.  Small business and sole proprietorships steal their labor force.  Some people are not cut out to run their own business, but I know many, many people who would like to try but are locked into a job that they can't afford to leave.  Oftentimes, it is what I call a "useless" job. At he end of the day, there is nothing more than what you started with, except more money in the pocket of the CEO.  My son worked at a call center for a couple years because he couldn't find anything better. He despised every waking hour of every day spent at that job.  THAT is a perfect example of what I call a useless job.  People want to see the fruits of their labor. At the end of the day, I want to see some progress. I don't care if it's a cantle binding that I sewed, a belt that wasn't there this morning, or a colt that made some progress since the day before.  When a person spends a miserable day at a job that he doesn't like, with people he doesn't want to be with, that makes up a high percentage of his waking hours, and his life. Life is both too short and too long to spend it doing something you hate!  Is it any wonder the poor guy stops at a bar to get numb on the way home or picks up a six pack (or twelve pack)?   Give these people a job they can take some pride in and feel like they accomplished something and made a difference, then you will see change. But what comes first, the chicken or the egg??  Where does it start?  Takes a smarter person than me to figure it out. I'm just extremely grateful that for the time being at least, I can make a living doing what I love.  Millions are not as fortunate.

[JLSleather]

13 minutes ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

At the end of the day, I want to see some progress. I don't care if it's a cantle binding that I sewed, a belt that wasn't there this morning, or a colt that made some progress since the day before

Yep.. is this a geographical thing  ?

I remember firing that guy ... maybe 10 years ago.  Told him I like to see what I'm getting for my money.  And this check here I'm handing you is the FOURTH time I'm paying you and can't put my finger on just what you're being paid FOR.  So, do tell me ... point to SOMETHING that YOU did, and I'll get over it and on about the business.  In fact, SHOW ME what I paid for WITH THIS CHECK, and I'll not only drop it, but I'll throw in dinner and a movie for you and your wife.

He couldn't point.

As for labor costs -- TOO MANY people see skilled leather people talking abouit $30 per hour and up, so they price theirs the same way.  But some may be old enough to remember the "wage gap" for women.  Or minorities.  Or homosexuals.  Or whatever it is this week.  And the slogan became "equal pay for equal work".  Which I'm ALL FOR, personaly.  But if you want the same wage as teh experienced, talented crafter, then do the same work - and I mean do it AS WELL as that guy.

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by JLSleather

[cdthayer]

8 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

I do not think anyone, Trump included, has any idea the financial and material costs of rebuilding Americas Infrastructure.

I think that it’s totally possible to build new infrastructure from the ground up.  The USA has done that a lot of times, all over the world.  (Think of the various countries that we’ve blasted back into the dark ages over the years and then rebuilt them.)

And when thinking about building new infrastructure in America today, I wonder if the thought of “high tech” sometimes clouds our perspective of what can be done.  If we’re going to rebuild our infrastructure, do we have to use the latest technology to do so?  The geeks that buy and sell stock for some of us 401K people seem to think so (do those stock traders grow any vegetables or ever get any dirt under their fingernails?).  Caterpillar Company stock was down before the election, and now it’s showing good gains with all of this infrastructure rebuild talk.  It only takes one guy/girl to run a large piece of construction equipment to move a mountain (and a bunch of dollars to pay for the equipment) nowadays, but can the same results be made using lower tech and more people?  Can we put people to work using old technology?

Think back to the days when my Grandfather worked on the WPA project in southwest Colorado.  He milked his cows before daylight, saddled up his horse, rode several miles to the bridge project, and did some kind of work (I don’t have a clue what actual work, but it was surely hand labor), rode his horse back home after work, milked the cows, and then soon turned in for the night.  He got up the next morning and did it again.  The guys that hired out their teams to move dirt, and the guys that herded their sheep back and forth to compact the fill dirt probably camped near the project most nights while their wives and kids did the milking.

I don’t think that we can go back to horse-drawn equipment to build bridges and roads, but do we have to use the latest technology in earth-moving equipment?  And it occurs to me, that the place where we have the largest shortage of workers is in the agriculture field (ah, growing food) where the farmers can’t seem find enough workers to harvest their labor-intensive crops.  I’m sure that some enterprising individuals have came up with lots of ways to harvest those crops with machines, only to be told that their “high tech” solutions are too expensive, so the low tech method is still preferred.  Is there a way to make those labor-intensive tasks more desirable to our young workers that can’t seem to find a decent job?  It’s going to take more than a YouTube video saying how “rad” it is...

What about the leatherwork that you do?  Do you consider it high tech?  Sure, maybe the machines that you use today are the latest in sewing machine technology (not me, I have old iron), but aren’t you still using mostly the same technology to cut and tool your leather that has been used for decades?  Old technology?  Old tools are prized, right?  When you look at all of the tools that you use to create a design on leather, does it ever enter your mind that there is a high tech way of creating a design on leather using an electric motor to feed a piece of leather through an embossing machine and get a design imprinted on the leather?  Of course not, that stuff is garbage, and not real leatherwork/too easy/not my style.  Craftsmen are craftsmen, and usually by using old proven technology.

How do we get the population to recognize craftsmanship again?  And can old technology be combined with craftsmanship, giving our citizens pride in accomplishment, to rebuild the American infrastructure?

CD in Oklahoma

 

[bikermutt07]

On the topic of cheap junk, I would like to add..... I don't think the younger people even consider items for repair. The marketing, as Tink pointed out, have been pushing the new next best hoopla for so long that I don't think people even know what cheap is anymore. They have no inclinations that they are buying something that is designed to fall apart. Designed to not be repairable. I remember when the I phones first came out. I asked the salesman "how do you remove the battery?" "oh, you can't remove the battery", he says. "Well, I'm not buying something that I can't replace the battery in".

The thing is, can we come back? I think the auto industry certainly can. I think the tech industry could. Other industries maybe not?

You know Germany never really stopped producing their fine quality items?

[NVLeatherWorx]

23 hours ago, AngieNZ said:

"They New Zealand"  - nope air is fine to cycle in here

But I think the bigger problem world over is everyone thinks govements should supprt them .We have a mentality here where the younger people dont want to work ,especially when the govt hands out money left right and center.

We have heaps of jobs this time of year in orchards and on farms and we are importing workers to do the work ????

Lazy youngsters these days ( not all but alot)

And that is the reason why we end up with all of our migrant workers (who, for the larger part, are illegally here as well) so how do we handle this issue?  If it were me, I would put it out there that it is high time that EVERYONE contribute to the betterment of our nation, economy, and the our global standing because if we don't all WORK together on making us what we once were, we will find ourselves so fractured and unable to take care of ourselves that we will cease to exist as independent people.  And yes, the younger generation, for the most part, needs to get off that "I'm entitled" mentality and get a bit dirty for a change.  And this above statement can be applied to every nation on this planet without even having to alter it.

[NVLeatherWorx]

7 hours ago, JLSleather said:

NOW you're getting there.  It's one thing to not want to pay for real quality and workmanship.  We're WAY beyond that.  People want cheap and fast, because they INTEND to replace after a short time.  Many aren't interested in a product that will last for years, since they are terrified that their "friends" will have something different soon and they'll want to follow along ...

Blame at least some of this on teh crafter, though.  Long speeches about "handmade" attached to something poorly done with low-grade materials, and viola -- people who think "handmade" means flaws and errors coupled with higher prices.

And this is where all of those online outlets (Etsy, Bonanza, and the likes) create that very issue because they are loaded with "stores/shops" that have all of this handmade and artfully crafted crap that would embarrass the living you know what out of the majority of us here within this community yet we also find ourselves evaluated against that same crap even though the customer can physically see the difference in quality of craftsmanship and a true passion from us to produce a truly worthy product.  And the worst of them are those who work only with pre-fabricated kits and couldn't cut a piece of leather if was attached to their hind end.

Hoping to not create a thinking process among those who are new to this trade but everyone needs to be critically honest with themselves and look at what they produce and put out there for sale on the open marketplaces or even through your local vendor shows.  When you give it your best look and harshest evaluation, if the result is that you know that your skills need more work and refinement then you should not be trying to hit the market right now.  Instead, practice your skills, learn from the sources of information available to you (which includes right here), and post your works for critique.  When you start getting solid praise and the ever popular "oh wow!" then you can start thinking about putting yourself out there.  This is the same reality that every business planning process goes through and sometimes the timing just ain't right.

[TinkerTailor]

29 minutes ago, cdthayer said:

The USA has done that a lot of times, all over the world.

Every large increase in the USA's ability to manufacture and every jump in infrastructure followed a civil/world war or the great depression. Hardship breeds ingenuity and resourcefulness, and shows the value in fixing what you have, cause its the last one you will get for a while. It is going to take a great hardship for the people to stop being so selfish and recognize that working together to build stuff makes all of us better.

Also, I think we need to keep the last 100 years of US foreign policy and the problems and solutions created out of this conversation.  The US is not going to get great by messing with other countries. They need to clean up their own house before looking at the neighbours.This is a whole additional topic.

7 minutes ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

we will find ourselves so fractured and unable to take care of ourselves

Already has happened. The election results directly prove the country is fractured.

[NVLeatherWorx]

4 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Yep.. is this a geographical thing  ?

I remember firing that guy ... maybe 10 years ago.  Told him I like to see what I'm getting for my money.  And this check here I'm handing you is the FOURTH time I'm paying you and can't put my finger on just what you're being paid FOR.  So, do tell me ... point to SOMETHING that YOU did, and I'll get over it and on about the business.  In fact, SHOW ME what I paid for WITH THIS CHECK, and I'll not only drop it, but I'll throw in dinner and a movie for you and your wife.

He couldn't point.

As for labor costs -- TOO MANY people see skilled leather people talking abouit $30 per hour and up, so they price theirs the same way.  But some may be old enough to remember the "wage gap" for women.  Or minorities.  Or homosexuals.  Or whatever it is this week.  And the slogan became "equal pay for equal work".  Which I'm ALL FOR, personaly.  But if you want the same wage as teh experienced, talented crafter, then do the same work - and I mean do it AS WELL as that guy.

 

And don't forget, that in order to garner that equal wage for equal work you also need  to have the same tenure as your counterparts because their wage at the moment surely includes performance increases and annual increases.  Don't think just because you start working today in a department that has 10 other people doing the same work that you all started fresh on the same day; get your head out of your fifth point of contact and get with reality because I am sure that someone on that team has been there a number of years and EARNED the wage that they are getting today.

[TinkerTailor]

3 minutes ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

When you give it your best look and harshest evaluation, if the result is that you know that your skills need more work and refinement then you should not be trying to hit the market right now.

Or just be real with what you are selling. Hair and makup colleges do cheap student haircuts. You go in knowing and accepting that the risk you take for the low price is it may not be perfect. You have to start somewhere.  Tell people, "when i am better i want to charge 40 bucks but these ones are 20 cause i am learning". That honesty in itself my cause them to buy it even though it is flawed.

Nothing wrong with selling apprenticeship quality goods as long as everyone is on the same page.

[NVLeatherWorx]

7 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said:

Every large increase in the USA's ability to manufacture and every jump in infrastructure followed a civil/world war or the great depression. Hardship breeds ingenuity and resourcefulness, and shows the value in fixing what you have, cause its the last one you will get for a while. It is going to take a great hardship for the people to stop being so selfish and recognize that working together to build stuff makes all of us better.

Also, I think we need to keep the last 100 years of US foreign policy and the problems and solutions created out of this conversation.  The US is not going to get great by messing with other countries. They need to clean up their own house before looking at the neighbours.This is a whole additional topic.

Already has happened. The election results directly prove the country is fractured.

I will agree that we are fractured and I will also offer up that it has been growing for some time, but the past 8 years have seen the largest growth in that fracture and you can't deny it.  You might not agree with that statement and it is because the truth sometimes hurts very bad, but the end result is that it is still the truth and you can't deny the truth.  It is the path down the road towards what much of Europe and other nations have done over their time and the growth of the "social welfare and handout" programs to a point where they become equal to a working class wage, on top of the idea that you can provide healthcare to everyone for nothing and those who break their backs every day on a hard labor job will pay for your life, is why the United States voted the way they did this week.  It got to the point where people just said, "enough is enough" and basically put forth a mandate for something different.  And the most missed fact from this weeks election is that it wasn't only Republicans who went out there and said that enough was enough, there was a very large number of Independents and Democrats who jumped on that bandwagon as well and they come from the ranks that put the current people in office only to be let down by them; betrayal can change the common man's way of thinking and karma is a you know what.