"Make America Great Again" and the leather trade

[TinkerTailor]

So someone has to do it:

America was once the world leader in manufacturing across the board. They made the products as well as the machines to make them. They harvested the raw materials and refined them into end products. Every part of every item was made in the USA. Thousands of farms grew healthy cattle, and they were tanned to the highest standard by multiple tanneries right here at home. Millions of acres of hardwood trees in the north east of the USA were allocated to leather tanning and it was exported to the world. Foundries mixed base metals and cast or forged them into hardware of quality. Linen thread was lovingly spun here from locally grown flax. Things were good.

Then the factories and machines were sold and scrapped. Manufacturing in general was moved offshore. Now there are very few suppliers of products left in the USA. USA made tools are prized. There are only 3 tanneries of note, and neither is even close to what they used to be. Us hides are tanned in mexico. USA made buckles, few and far between. All the leather machines are made in asia now. Thread-china, Tools-china, Tools to make the tools-china.

Here is a quote from a wall street journal article about Howard Shaffer and his attempt to start a shoe factory in Florida around 2008. He was the man who set up the original shoe factories in china for the big names in the seventies. He failed due to lack of supply chains. If anyone had the connections and cash  to do it, it was him and he failed:

Quote

What killed his U.S. factory isn't just competition from Asia's cheap labor, he says. It is the lack of infrastructure needed to make a factory tick, a problem that has bedeviled the few remaining independent shoemakers in the U.S. Finding technicians to fly in on short notice to fix shoe machines was a constant and growing challenge, Mr. Shaffer says, because the number of U.S. companies that make and service machines has dwindled. The suppliers of shoelaces, leather and other basic materials insisted that he buy in batches far larger than made sense for a small-scale producer.

 

I question, How can America make itself great again without starting from the ground up? In Tuscany there are water treatment plants built just to treat the effluent from tanneries. This is smart planning. Planning from the ground up. There are dozens of tanneries within a few hundred miles making some of the best leather in the world with basically zero pollution. None of this infrastructure exists in USA unless it is owned by the tannery. This keeps out the small guys.

If all the machines to make stuff have been sold for scrap or shipped overseas long ago, and the skills and techniques to utilize the machines have been lost to time, Where do you start? The vast track of trees to tan leather are gone....The foundries dismantled....The rail lines to them sold for condos....The agricultural land has been sold for residential. The water is used up for lawns......Going to be a long hard road.

[CaptQuirk]

You need trees to tan leather? I have 25 acres with oak and sumacs, come get them

[LumpenDoodle2]

Agree, if you don't have the basics in place, you can't build a proper production system.   In the UK, we seem to be happy to let farmers sell off land to build housing.    They forget that a country who cannot produce enough food for their own people, becomes dependant on outside forces.   Lose trade with that country providing your staple foods, and you lose a vital resource.

Same with production, rely wholly on other countries for your heavy industries, and you weaken your infrastructure, possibly to a point of collapse.

Both farmland and industry iare difficult, even impossible to replace.

[TinkerTailor]

6 minutes ago, CaptQuirk said:

You need trees to tan leather? I have 25 acres with oak and sumacs, come get them

You can do it with piss too.

[JLSleather]

LESS industry would be a good idea actually.  

• Species driven to extinction
• polar ice disappearing (seriously, this is not a 'test')
• millions of acres of woodland "cleared" (destroyed) to make more ethanol fuel
• streams and rivers often cant sustain fish, and some of which can hold fish that can't be safely eaten in any quantity
• the New Zealand "they" now reports that the air quailty is so poor that cycling to work is no longer a health benefit

and all for what...so some genius can carry the latest phone... and use it to sell you some more things you don't need ...

[TinkerTailor]

3 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

LESS industry would be a good idea actually.  

• Species driven to extinction
• polar ice disappearing (seriously, this is not a 'test')
• millions of acres of woodland "cleared" (destroyed) to make more ethanol fuel
• streams and rivers often cant sustain fish, and some of which can hold fish that can't be safely eaten in any quantity
• the New Zealand "they" now reports that the air quailty is so poor that cycling to work is no longer a health benefit

and all for what...so some genius can carry the latest phone... and use it to sell you some more things you don't need ...

Agreed, however the first start is to reduce the transportation element of the cycle, which forces you to buy local. Farms that raise animals and crops at the same time do not need  fertilizer input. The animals fertilize the plants and the plants provide food for the animals. We as humans just glean the fat off the system. When you go to feedlots and huge mechanized farms, you now need to truck the feed to the animals, which frequently requires intermediary processing and you also have to buy and transport fertilizer to replenish the fields. People won't tolerate rail cars of stinky manure crossing the land,  so again processing or just using fossil fuel based ferts. If an area does not have enough water, like vegas, people are just going to have to leave. Period.

North America CAN support industry and all the people in it if they stop with the obsession on having a Cadillac for each kid and grow some vegetables. The People, as represented by the government, need to suck it up and get their hands dirty and build the infrastructure that CLEAN industry needs. This will not be cheap and will require huge sacrifice from all. This solution is very detrimental to the profits of big business, and will contested greatly.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

6 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

So someone has to do it:

America was once the world leader in manufacturing across the board. They made the products as well as the machines to make them. They harvested the raw materials and refined them into end products. Every part of every item was made in the USA. Thousands of farms grew healthy cattle, and they were tanned to the highest standard by multiple tanneries right here at home. Millions of acres of hardwood trees in the north east of the USA were allocated to leather tanning and it was exported to the world. Foundries mixed base metals and cast or forged them into hardware of quality. Linen thread was lovingly spun here from locally grown flax. Things were good.

Then the factories and machines were sold and scrapped. Manufacturing in general was moved offshore. Now there are very few suppliers of products left in the USA. USA made tools are prized. There are only 3 tanneries of note, and neither is even close to what they used to be. Us hides are tanned in mexico. USA made buckles, few and far between. All the leather machines are made in asia now. Thread-china, Tools-china, Tools to make the tools-china.

Here is a quote from a wall street journal article about Howard Shaffer and his attempt to start a shoe factory in Florida around 2008. He was the man who set up the original shoe factories in china for the big names in the seventies. He failed due to lack of supply chains. If anyone had the connections and cash  to do it, it was him and he failed:

 

I question, How can America make itself great again without starting from the ground up? In Tuscany there are water treatment plants built just to treat the effluent from tanneries. This is smart planning. Planning from the ground up. There are dozens of tanneries within a few hundred miles making some of the best leather in the world with basically zero pollution. None of this infrastructure exists in USA unless it is owned by the tannery. This keeps out the small guys.

If all the machines to make stuff have been sold for scrap or shipped overseas long ago, and the skills and techniques to utilize the machines have been lost to time, Where do you start? The vast track of trees to tan leather are gone....The foundries dismantled....The rail lines to them sold for condos....The agricultural land has been sold for residential. The water is used up for lawns......Going to be a long hard road.

 

5 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

Agreed, however the first start is to reduce the transportation element of the cycle, which forces you to buy local. Farms that raise animals and crops at the same time do not need  fertilizer input. The animals fertilize the plants and the plants provide food for the animals. We as humans just glean the fat off the system. When you go to feedlots and huge mechanized farms, you now need to truck the feed to the animals, which frequently requires intermediary processing and you also have to buy and transport fertilizer to replenish the fields. People won't tolerate rail cars of stinky manure crossing the land,  so again processing or just using fossil fuel based ferts. If an area does not have enough water, like vegas, people are just going to have to leave. Period.

North America CAN support industry and all the people in it if they stop with the obsession on having a Cadillac for each kid and grow some vegetables. The People, as represented by the government, need to suck it up and get their hands dirty and build the infrastructure that CLEAN industry needs. This will not be cheap and will require huge sacrifice from all. This solution is very detrimental to the profits of big business, and will contested greatly.

I've actually been thinking about this all day. The American people have gotten lazy.  That's a generalized statement and doesn't apply across the board, but many would rather sit and play on their smartphone than get their hands dirty.  Greed has turned America into what it is today. It's not enough to farm 1000 acres, let's farm 10,000 and run all the little guys out of business.  Those people are in every community.  Enough is never enough and when you go to the site that shows how much those guys have gotten in government subsidies, it'll make you want to puke.  The very same people who elected the new president on the promise of making America great again are some of the same who shop by price and will bitch and complain when prices of consumer goods go up due to increased labor costs (and other costs) of moving industry back to this country. The very same people who bitch and complain about everything being made in China are the ones who order online garbage because the "Made in the good old USA" stuff is too expensive. It's going to take one heck of a smart and dedicated bunch of people in government to turn things around and if it happens, it won't happen overnight, or in 4 years, or even 8.  I don't plan to see it in my lifetime.  I'm not the brightest bulb in the socket, and I don't even pretend to know much about politics, economics, or how to run the country, but I do know that it's going to be one hell of an undertaking to make this country what it once was. Lots of wisdom in what you say Tinker.

[AngieNZ]

"They New Zealand"  - nope air is fine to cycle in here

5 hours ago, JLSleather said:

LESS industry would be a good idea actually.  

• Species driven to extinction
• polar ice disappearing (seriously, this is not a 'test')
• millions of acres of woodland "cleared" (destroyed) to make more ethanol fuel
• streams and rivers often cant sustain fish, and some of which can hold fish that can't be safely eaten in any quantity
• the New Zealand "they" now reports that the air quailty is so poor that cycling to work is no longer a health benefit

and all for what...so some genius can carry the latest phone... and use it to sell you some more things you don't need ...

But I think the bigger problem world over is everyone thinks govements should supprt them .We have a mentality here where the younger people dont want to work ,especially when the govt hands out money left right and center.

We have heaps of jobs this time of year in orchards and on farms and we are importing workers to do the work ????

Lazy youngsters these days ( not all but alot)

[MADMAX22]

Way too many people in the world. 

Oh and whats with the people in CA, wanting to succeed and all that because they didnt get what they wanted, however if you turned it around they would be all happy. Its a "democracy" right or is it only that if you get the person you want in office. The northern half of CA has been wanting to get away from the southern half for oh 100 years now but thats not good because all the farm land and water is in the north. Those idiots in southern CA I guess dont realize they are dependant upon several other states to keep them fed and watered. 

Ahh well. 

Edited November 10, 2016 by MADMAX22

[cdthayer]

 

19 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

How can America make itself great again without starting from the ground up?

Trump campaigned that he would concentrate on building up the American infrastructure.  Global markets caught that, and I see this morning that copper and other commodity metals are seeing yuge gains world-wide.  An aluminum maker in Russia jumped by the most on record, making me glad that I began stock-piling cast iron (sewing machines) and aluminum (empty beer cans) a decade ago, back in 2006.

 

19 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

reduce the transportation element of the cycle, which forces you to buy local.

I think that the transportation industry will eventually take itself out of the equation, as the west coast strike a while back, and the Hanjin problems recently, seem to indicate how fragile the “just in time” delivery system really is.  

CD in Oklahoma

 

[TinkerTailor]

34 minutes ago, cdthayer said:

 

Trump campaigned that he would concentrate on building up the American infrastructure.  Global markets caught that, and I see this morning that copper and other commodity metals are seeing yuge gains world-wide.  An aluminum maker in Russia jumped by the most on record, making me glad that I began stock-piling cast iron (sewing machines) and aluminum (empty beer cans) a decade ago, back in 2006.

 

I think that the transportation industry will eventually take itself out of the equation, as the west coast strike a while back, and the Hanjin problems recently, seem to indicate how fragile the “just in time” delivery system really is.  

CD in Oklahoma

 

I do not think anyone, Trump included, has any idea the financial and material costs of rebuilding Americas Infrastructure. They only got the railway across the United states by giving millions of acres to the Rail companies to sell off in order to recoup the costs. This land is gone.

The interstates highways as well as a bunch of water related infrastructure was built in the 40''s and 50's after the war. It was the pre-war armament and l rebuilding of the entire continent of Europe that paid for them.

It took a great depression and a world war to wake americans up and make themselves great, with HUGE personal and national sacrifice. People had to starve before they would change their ways.  Now after 60 years of selling off the hard earned industries their grandparents sacrificed hugely for, they are in the same boat as before the depression.

Unless the average American learns to sacrifice for the betterment of all, and the greater good, Trump will not succeed. The necessary decisions are too hard to take and too unpopular for Trump to succeed. Currently as soon as anyone says "greater good", they are a socialist or a commie.......

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

40 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said:

I do not think anyone, Trump included, has any idea the financial and material costs of rebuilding Americas Infrastructure. They only got the railway across the United states by giving millions of acres to the Rail companies to sell off in order to recoup the costs. This land is gone.

The interstates highways as well as a bunch of water related infrastructure was built in the 40''s and 50's after the war. It was the pre-war armament and l rebuilding of the entire continent of Europe that paid for them.

It took a great depression and a world war to wake americans up and make themselves great, with HUGE personal and national sacrifice. People had to starve before they would change their ways.  Now after 60 years of selling off the hard earned industries their grandparents sacrificed hugely for, they are in the same boat as before the depression.

Unless the average American learns to sacrifice for the betterment of all, and the greater good, Trump will not succeed. The necessary decisions are too hard to take and too unpopular for Trump to succeed. Currently as soon as anyone says "greater good", they are a socialist or a commie.......

Yep, right again!

[JLSleather]

Your "made in america" myth was present even back then.  The railroad you refer to was largely built by Chinese and Irish immigrants

 

[CraftyNick]

Good thoughts here folks.  Thanks for bringing up the topic.  I am concerned about the same and here are my thoughts:  Nowadays, although people think the standard of living has gone way up, the quality of it has gone way way down.  A hundred years ago people ate all their food organic, locally grown, and hand made.  Their shoes and clothing were also hand made, just for them, in the USA.  As with everything else they had.  If we care about where our food and goods come from, and that they are produced in a responsible, ethical manner here in our own country, we need to be willing pay for that "better" stuff.  We all know that stuff is more expensive,  but if we bought it we'd have less money for buying stuff we don't need, like the latest electronics and lawnmowers that are just unnecessary and don't come from the US and just become trash and pollution for and the environment.  At the same time we would create a demand for our friends and neighbors here at home who wish they could make a living doing their passion - leather working, tailoring, small-scale farming, etc.  In other words,  producing stuff the way it should be produced.  I spend a lot effort, and sometimes money too, to produce my leather crafts with real materials from the right sources.  For me it's not just about the crafting things, it's about the philosophy behind it, as it seems a lot of other leather workers are concerned about too.  It kind of runs with the trade.  Now, to be frank, you might find me buying some not US made stuff or materials sometimes, but my complaint is that American manufacturing has been relegated to making things that are for absolute perfectionist rich people that don't care a bit about how much it costs - they just need the best. That's the way it is with leather.  You can buy American leather, but not "reasonable-quality" American leather, just "perfect" American leather.  And if you can't buy the perfect leather, you'll have to buy it from somewhere who does make "reasonable-quality" leather.  In summary of that idea, the other end of the problem of the lack of American made product is that no one can afford to produce it who doesn't have customers who are eccentric rich people.  Because that's what you'd have to be to pay as much for the "perfect" American made stuff that's available.  There needs to be also a market and supply for "reasonable", practical handmade American products.  Not just a market for rich people buying novelty stuff.  That is, that's what we need to bring back the small-scale American producer.  And this applies to other places besides America that have this  problem.

Edited November 10, 2016 by CraftyNick

[TinkerTailor]

7 minutes ago, CraftyNick said:

We all know that stuff is more expensive,  but if we bought it we'd have less money for buying stuff we don't need, like the latest electronics and lawnmowers are just unnecessary and don't come from the US and just become trash and pollution for the environment.

Trillions of dollars have been spent over decades to convince the people that the only good thing is the latest and greatest thing.

Buy the new widget because your friends will think its cooler than the old one..............

We, as well as our parents have been inundated with this marketing and can't be blamed for following blindly. That is what the marketers have been working for. It surrounds us 24 hours a day.

There is basically no demand for anything that lasts and repairable because people are conditioned to put no value in "old stuff".....Funny thing is, the new widget is the same price as the old one but way lower quality. Who cares that it broke, There is a new one now.......Once you start attempting to fix stuff you quickly see how crappy it was made. It then informs your future purchasing decisions, "am i going to be able to replace that cord/hose if/when it breaks?"

I believe in the philosophy of buy right once, and maintain it forever. This means 2 years down the road, I am buying something different instead of the same thing again. Yes the product may cost double or triple, but it is once. In the long run I end up with more and better stuff for the same money cause it didn't break and if it did, i could get the parts to fix it. Frequently these days the only choice to buy right is to buy old. Buying items that others bought right, lovingly used and cared for for their whole life and left them behind still perfectly usable. My shop stereo is a 1972 technics amp with sansui sp95 speakers. I think I bought it for 75 bucks. It has real wood speakers with real wood lattice grills and a wood amp case. Sounds good quiet, and really good loud. Really really good. And it looks beautiful. It has been used hard for decades but treated well. For 5 years it was used as the stereo for a bicycle shop, bumping away for 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. I know it will outlast me. I added a small 6 channel mixer I found for 40 bucks used so it had more inputs and now it has radio, computer, cd, phono, iphone, cable box and dvd inputs. The number of brand new home stereo components my friends have gone through in the decade I have owned it, trying to get what i have, is astonishing.

Quit buying crap. Buy right once. Grow some food. Make stuff. At least attempt to fix stuff.

Live simply so others can simply live.

[JLSleather]

10 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said:

There is basically no demand for anything that lasts and repairable because people are conditioned to put no value in "old stuff"

NOW you're getting there.  It's one thing to not want to pay for real quality and workmanship.  We're WAY beyond that.  People want cheap and fast, because they INTEND to replace after a short time.  Many aren't interested in a product that will last for years, since they are terrified that their "friends" will have something different soon and they'll want to follow along ...

Blame at least some of this on teh crafter, though.  Long speeches about "handmade" attached to something poorly done with low-grade materials, and viola -- people who think "handmade" means flaws and errors coupled with higher prices.

[TinkerTailor]

5 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

Blame at least some of this on teh crafter, though.  Long speeches about "handmade" attached to something poorly done with low-grade materials, and viola -- people who think "handmade" means flaws and errors coupled with higher prices.

This is just a result of the loss of actual quality craftsmen. Consumers just have not seen quality hand made products before. The number of people I have had to show pictures of me actually stitching an item before they would believe I stitch that consistent, neat and tidy by hand is astounding. They all are convinced that only a machine can sew like that.

Not to knock the craftsmen on this site, but look around at the gallery for straight lines some time. Even with a ruler a surprising number can not cut a straight line. Beautiful stitching but the pocket is crooked.... In many well regarded youtube videos outside curves are cut by chopping away a bunch of straight sections and this is seen as the neatest way. Cutting a straight line is one of the most basic apprentice skills, and is necessary to call yourself a craftsman of any type....

I have spent a lifetime learning how to move my hand in a straight line, whether drawing, cutting or whatever.  I can cut exactly on a line, and up to 12 oz in one cut freehand with no ruler. I have used my hands for my whole life and have great dexterity and hand strength. I lay out pieces with 1/8" between max, frequently cutting the straight edges of two pieces with one cut and no straightedge, following a line. Cutting this way, with clean one stroke cuts saves alot of time and leather waste in the long run. A one cut edge is a breeze to burnish. A 12 cut hack job takes 1/2 of sanding to make passable. This is risky but i am confident in my ability to be accurate. I don't mean to brag here, just bring up that being good with your hands takes more than deciding to do some leather stuff for an hour here and there. I could cut a straight line when i started this leather hobby. My other skills just transferred over. This takes using your hands for many things for a long time. You can't learn this on a computer. You learn this by using your hands. A straight line is a straight line. If you can draw one on paper, you can cut one in leather or in wood. If you don't know what straight "feels like" you will have great difficulty. If you want to see the skill of a craftsman, you can't look at the product, look at the scraps and waste, they don't lie.

Apparently, in 20 years the average grip strength of a person in north America has dropped 20%. We don't use our hands anymore. If your hand is not strong enough it can't make a straight cut, period.

If you want to see the skill of a craftsman, you can't look at the product, look at the scraps and waste, they don't lie.

[billybopp]

I have a term for the current mentality in the US, and to some extent worldwide,  "The WalMart Society".  It doesn't matter the consequences, just get it cheap.  I, for one, refuse to shop at or support their store.  It would be bad enough if, as well publicized, WalMart (and others) didn't just screw over their employees.  Less publicized is the way that they screw over their suppliers.  A few years ago, I spoke with a VP of a well known paper products supplier, and was told that WalMart sends in teams to inspect the books of their suppliers, performs their own cost analysis and then negotiates what price they will pay for products.  They offer a take it or leave it deal, which leaves virtually no profit for the supplier, who then has to decide, from a marketing standpoint, whether they can afford to not have their product on the shelves of the largest retailer around.  Sounds like a good business plan for WalMart, doesn't it?  The supplier doesn't really profit, and can't then afford to raise the standard of living for THEIR employees, ensuring that THEY no have to buy their needs as cheaply as possible.   It also ensures that WalMart's small competitors likely cannot match their deal.    Unfortunately, other large retailers are now using the same sort of practices.  It's a downward spiral all around that can only be stopped by all of us.  If we're willing.

[JLSleather]

You mention multiple why-tube videos, but say you can't "learn this from a computer" (I agree, you can't).

But I don't think we're talking about the same thing any more.  While I would agree that people aren't used to seeing skilled work, my position is that it DOESN"T MATTER WHY.  If your work "sucks", then it really makes no difference whether it's done "by hand" or with machines.  And I disagree that you can't tell quality from the product ... in fact, that's the only place you can tell.

We've all seen acres of hand made poop.. all the time.  The fact that it's "handmade" doesn't make it better than it is.  This is just one reason FOR the increase in manufactured stuff -- if the 'crafted' is poop, then WHY would I buy it .. much less pay more for it!?$??!?!

 

 

 

[TinkerTailor]

30 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

You mention multiple why-tube videos, but say you can't "learn this from a computer" (I agree, you can't).

 

What I meant by my previous statement is you can not learn how to use your hands from a computer. You can however learn a great deal in front of a computer if you spend the time accessing media in a directed manner. Time spent on youtube watching cat videos and on facebook farming is time wasted. Time spent going through old textbooks and manuals from the smithsonian and watching videos by users like gmace on leather work from an english saddlery examiner can be VERY educational. Its all in how you use it. Watching one of Uwe's videos on machine adjustment or something is good for 2+ hours of examining the manual. NEVER has it been easier to learn so much with so little effort. Conversely never has it been as easy to be a complete waste of skin. People consuming food and resources that give no returns back to society while they clickity clicking on farmville and watch russian dashcam videos for hours.  Resources that could be consumed by someone who contributes to the betterment of man AND the planet by making/fixing/growing/nurturing stuff. The internet is a resource just like our food and needs to be used effectively to be useful.

As far as the prices for crappily done handmade items, perhaps the price they are charging is the right price. Perhaps those who do nicer work should actually be getting double. Slide the scale some. Obviously doubling the price of the stuff we make is impossible because the price ends up so far from the cheap chinese crap it is staggering. However, don't forget the social/environmental/political costs of these low import prices. Poor quality materials and assembly line factory production are one way to save money but the real reason we import is they don't pay workers anything and they destroy their surroundings.  Part of the marketing has been to blind people to these aspects. Once this cost is factored in, crappy handmade stuff would not be far off of the price of the low quality import, and doubling the current price of our products becomes justified.  If these factors mattered in china, companies would save the shipping and locate the machines here. It could be that the marketing engine has got to you as well.

 

As to the quality comment, I was refering to the quality of the craftsman not the product. Chromium water pumped into rivers at discount tanneries is waste from the craftsman. Poor quality hides have larger areas of waste. A good craftsman will take in quality raw materials and produce exceptional products with very little waste. As you go down in quality of craftsmanship, waste goes up.

Edited November 10, 2016 by TinkerTailor

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, billybopp said:

I have a term for the current mentality in the US, and to some extent worldwide,  "The WalMart Society".  It doesn't matter the consequences, just get it cheap.  I, for one, refuse to shop at or support their store.  It would be bad enough if, as well publicized, WalMart (and others) didn't just screw over their employees.  Less publicized is the way that they screw over their suppliers.  A few years ago, I spoke with a VP of a well known paper products supplier, and was told that WalMart sends in teams to inspect the books of their suppliers, performs their own cost analysis and then negotiates what price they will pay for products.  They offer a take it or leave it deal, which leaves virtually no profit for the supplier, who then has to decide, from a marketing standpoint, whether they can afford to not have their product on the shelves of the largest retailer around.  Sounds like a good business plan for WalMart, doesn't it?  The supplier doesn't really profit, and can't then afford to raise the standard of living for THEIR employees, ensuring that THEY no have to buy their needs as cheaply as possible.   It also ensures that WalMart's small competitors likely cannot match their deal.    Unfortunately, other large retailers are now using the same sort of practices.  It's a downward spiral all around that can only be stopped by all of us.  If we're willing.

YES! My brother-in-law is in a management position at a dairy plant in another state. They have, in the past, bottled milk for Walmart and HATE Walmart for the exact reasons you stated. And I believe that Walmart has done more to hasten the acceptance of this mindset than anything else in the country

 

2 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

There is basically no demand for anything that lasts and repairable because people are conditioned to put no value in "old stuff".....Funny thing is, the new widget is the same price as the old one but way lower quality. Who cares that it broke, There is a new one now.......Once you start attempting to fix stuff you quickly see how crappy it was made. It then informs your future purchasing decisions, "am i going to be able to replace that cord/hose if/when it breaks?"

I fight this battle daily. The reason there is no demand for something repairable is in part because labor has gotten so ungodly high. My automotive repair shop is at $85 and hour now.  When I tell people I'm at $45, they say "Oh that isn't bad". But then I tell them how many hours it will take to reline a saddle or put in a new seat. About half of them go buy a new cheap saddle for not a lot more money.  I think part of our problem is too big a percentage of our income goes toward things that do not :  1. Keep us alive.  2. improve our standard of living   3. Make us money.   The number one drain on income that I can see is insurance premiums.  I know, I know, where would we be without it "If something bad happened"?  That is how those scumbags have gotten the American people to buy the useless crap for the last 75 years or so. Fear. Nothing more, nothing less.  As far as I'm concerned, insurance companies rate right down there with most lawyers, leaches and bottom feeders who will bleed you dry and when the money's gone, oh well too bad, so sad. As far as providing jobs, how many people grow up thinking, "Ya know, I'd really love to work for an insurance company when I grow up!"  I believe it is the mind numbing number of useless jobs that people are forced to do to survive that contributes to the epidemic drug and alcohol abuse in this country.  Big business DOED NOT WANT small business.  Small business and sole proprietorships steal their labor force.  Some people are not cut out to run their own business, but I know many, many people who would like to try but are locked into a job that they can't afford to leave.  Oftentimes, it is what I call a "useless" job. At he end of the day, there is nothing more than what you started with, except more money in the pocket of the CEO.  My son worked at a call center for a couple years because he couldn't find anything better. He despised every waking hour of every day spent at that job.  THAT is a perfect example of what I call a useless job.  People want to see the fruits of their labor. At the end of the day, I want to see some progress. I don't care if it's a cantle binding that I sewed, a belt that wasn't there this morning, or a colt that made some progress since the day before.  When a person spends a miserable day at a job that he doesn't like, with people he doesn't want to be with, that makes up a high percentage of his waking hours, and his life. Life is both too short and too long to spend it doing something you hate!  Is it any wonder the poor guy stops at a bar to get numb on the way home or picks up a six pack (or twelve pack)?   Give these people a job they can take some pride in and feel like they accomplished something and made a difference, then you will see change. But what comes first, the chicken or the egg??  Where does it start?  Takes a smarter person than me to figure it out. I'm just extremely grateful that for the time being at least, I can make a living doing what I love.  Millions are not as fortunate.

[JLSleather]

13 minutes ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

At the end of the day, I want to see some progress. I don't care if it's a cantle binding that I sewed, a belt that wasn't there this morning, or a colt that made some progress since the day before

Yep.. is this a geographical thing  ?

I remember firing that guy ... maybe 10 years ago.  Told him I like to see what I'm getting for my money.  And this check here I'm handing you is the FOURTH time I'm paying you and can't put my finger on just what you're being paid FOR.  So, do tell me ... point to SOMETHING that YOU did, and I'll get over it and on about the business.  In fact, SHOW ME what I paid for WITH THIS CHECK, and I'll not only drop it, but I'll throw in dinner and a movie for you and your wife.

He couldn't point.

As for labor costs -- TOO MANY people see skilled leather people talking abouit $30 per hour and up, so they price theirs the same way.  But some may be old enough to remember the "wage gap" for women.  Or minorities.  Or homosexuals.  Or whatever it is this week.  And the slogan became "equal pay for equal work".  Which I'm ALL FOR, personaly.  But if you want the same wage as teh experienced, talented crafter, then do the same work - and I mean do it AS WELL as that guy.

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by JLSleather

[cdthayer]

8 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

I do not think anyone, Trump included, has any idea the financial and material costs of rebuilding Americas Infrastructure.

I think that it’s totally possible to build new infrastructure from the ground up.  The USA has done that a lot of times, all over the world.  (Think of the various countries that we’ve blasted back into the dark ages over the years and then rebuilt them.)

And when thinking about building new infrastructure in America today, I wonder if the thought of “high tech” sometimes clouds our perspective of what can be done.  If we’re going to rebuild our infrastructure, do we have to use the latest technology to do so?  The geeks that buy and sell stock for some of us 401K people seem to think so (do those stock traders grow any vegetables or ever get any dirt under their fingernails?).  Caterpillar Company stock was down before the election, and now it’s showing good gains with all of this infrastructure rebuild talk.  It only takes one guy/girl to run a large piece of construction equipment to move a mountain (and a bunch of dollars to pay for the equipment) nowadays, but can the same results be made using lower tech and more people?  Can we put people to work using old technology?

Think back to the days when my Grandfather worked on the WPA project in southwest Colorado.  He milked his cows before daylight, saddled up his horse, rode several miles to the bridge project, and did some kind of work (I don’t have a clue what actual work, but it was surely hand labor), rode his horse back home after work, milked the cows, and then soon turned in for the night.  He got up the next morning and did it again.  The guys that hired out their teams to move dirt, and the guys that herded their sheep back and forth to compact the fill dirt probably camped near the project most nights while their wives and kids did the milking.

I don’t think that we can go back to horse-drawn equipment to build bridges and roads, but do we have to use the latest technology in earth-moving equipment?  And it occurs to me, that the place where we have the largest shortage of workers is in the agriculture field (ah, growing food) where the farmers can’t seem find enough workers to harvest their labor-intensive crops.  I’m sure that some enterprising individuals have came up with lots of ways to harvest those crops with machines, only to be told that their “high tech” solutions are too expensive, so the low tech method is still preferred.  Is there a way to make those labor-intensive tasks more desirable to our young workers that can’t seem to find a decent job?  It’s going to take more than a YouTube video saying how “rad” it is...

What about the leatherwork that you do?  Do you consider it high tech?  Sure, maybe the machines that you use today are the latest in sewing machine technology (not me, I have old iron), but aren’t you still using mostly the same technology to cut and tool your leather that has been used for decades?  Old technology?  Old tools are prized, right?  When you look at all of the tools that you use to create a design on leather, does it ever enter your mind that there is a high tech way of creating a design on leather using an electric motor to feed a piece of leather through an embossing machine and get a design imprinted on the leather?  Of course not, that stuff is garbage, and not real leatherwork/too easy/not my style.  Craftsmen are craftsmen, and usually by using old proven technology.

How do we get the population to recognize craftsmanship again?  And can old technology be combined with craftsmanship, giving our citizens pride in accomplishment, to rebuild the American infrastructure?

CD in Oklahoma

 

[bikermutt07]

On the topic of cheap junk, I would like to add..... I don't think the younger people even consider items for repair. The marketing, as Tink pointed out, have been pushing the new next best hoopla for so long that I don't think people even know what cheap is anymore. They have no inclinations that they are buying something that is designed to fall apart. Designed to not be repairable. I remember when the I phones first came out. I asked the salesman "how do you remove the battery?" "oh, you can't remove the battery", he says. "Well, I'm not buying something that I can't replace the battery in".

The thing is, can we come back? I think the auto industry certainly can. I think the tech industry could. Other industries maybe not?

You know Germany never really stopped producing their fine quality items?

[NVLeatherWorx]

23 hours ago, AngieNZ said:

"They New Zealand"  - nope air is fine to cycle in here

But I think the bigger problem world over is everyone thinks govements should supprt them .We have a mentality here where the younger people dont want to work ,especially when the govt hands out money left right and center.

We have heaps of jobs this time of year in orchards and on farms and we are importing workers to do the work ????

Lazy youngsters these days ( not all but alot)

And that is the reason why we end up with all of our migrant workers (who, for the larger part, are illegally here as well) so how do we handle this issue?  If it were me, I would put it out there that it is high time that EVERYONE contribute to the betterment of our nation, economy, and the our global standing because if we don't all WORK together on making us what we once were, we will find ourselves so fractured and unable to take care of ourselves that we will cease to exist as independent people.  And yes, the younger generation, for the most part, needs to get off that "I'm entitled" mentality and get a bit dirty for a change.  And this above statement can be applied to every nation on this planet without even having to alter it.