"Make America Great Again" and the leather trade

[NVLeatherWorx]

7 hours ago, JLSleather said:

NOW you're getting there.  It's one thing to not want to pay for real quality and workmanship.  We're WAY beyond that.  People want cheap and fast, because they INTEND to replace after a short time.  Many aren't interested in a product that will last for years, since they are terrified that their "friends" will have something different soon and they'll want to follow along ...

Blame at least some of this on teh crafter, though.  Long speeches about "handmade" attached to something poorly done with low-grade materials, and viola -- people who think "handmade" means flaws and errors coupled with higher prices.

And this is where all of those online outlets (Etsy, Bonanza, and the likes) create that very issue because they are loaded with "stores/shops" that have all of this handmade and artfully crafted crap that would embarrass the living you know what out of the majority of us here within this community yet we also find ourselves evaluated against that same crap even though the customer can physically see the difference in quality of craftsmanship and a true passion from us to produce a truly worthy product.  And the worst of them are those who work only with pre-fabricated kits and couldn't cut a piece of leather if was attached to their hind end.

Hoping to not create a thinking process among those who are new to this trade but everyone needs to be critically honest with themselves and look at what they produce and put out there for sale on the open marketplaces or even through your local vendor shows.  When you give it your best look and harshest evaluation, if the result is that you know that your skills need more work and refinement then you should not be trying to hit the market right now.  Instead, practice your skills, learn from the sources of information available to you (which includes right here), and post your works for critique.  When you start getting solid praise and the ever popular "oh wow!" then you can start thinking about putting yourself out there.  This is the same reality that every business planning process goes through and sometimes the timing just ain't right.

[TinkerTailor]

29 minutes ago, cdthayer said:

The USA has done that a lot of times, all over the world.

Every large increase in the USA's ability to manufacture and every jump in infrastructure followed a civil/world war or the great depression. Hardship breeds ingenuity and resourcefulness, and shows the value in fixing what you have, cause its the last one you will get for a while. It is going to take a great hardship for the people to stop being so selfish and recognize that working together to build stuff makes all of us better.

Also, I think we need to keep the last 100 years of US foreign policy and the problems and solutions created out of this conversation.  The US is not going to get great by messing with other countries. They need to clean up their own house before looking at the neighbours.This is a whole additional topic.

7 minutes ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

we will find ourselves so fractured and unable to take care of ourselves

Already has happened. The election results directly prove the country is fractured.

[NVLeatherWorx]

4 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Yep.. is this a geographical thing  ?

I remember firing that guy ... maybe 10 years ago.  Told him I like to see what I'm getting for my money.  And this check here I'm handing you is the FOURTH time I'm paying you and can't put my finger on just what you're being paid FOR.  So, do tell me ... point to SOMETHING that YOU did, and I'll get over it and on about the business.  In fact, SHOW ME what I paid for WITH THIS CHECK, and I'll not only drop it, but I'll throw in dinner and a movie for you and your wife.

He couldn't point.

As for labor costs -- TOO MANY people see skilled leather people talking abouit $30 per hour and up, so they price theirs the same way.  But some may be old enough to remember the "wage gap" for women.  Or minorities.  Or homosexuals.  Or whatever it is this week.  And the slogan became "equal pay for equal work".  Which I'm ALL FOR, personaly.  But if you want the same wage as teh experienced, talented crafter, then do the same work - and I mean do it AS WELL as that guy.

 

And don't forget, that in order to garner that equal wage for equal work you also need  to have the same tenure as your counterparts because their wage at the moment surely includes performance increases and annual increases.  Don't think just because you start working today in a department that has 10 other people doing the same work that you all started fresh on the same day; get your head out of your fifth point of contact and get with reality because I am sure that someone on that team has been there a number of years and EARNED the wage that they are getting today.

[TinkerTailor]

3 minutes ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

When you give it your best look and harshest evaluation, if the result is that you know that your skills need more work and refinement then you should not be trying to hit the market right now.

Or just be real with what you are selling. Hair and makup colleges do cheap student haircuts. You go in knowing and accepting that the risk you take for the low price is it may not be perfect. You have to start somewhere.  Tell people, "when i am better i want to charge 40 bucks but these ones are 20 cause i am learning". That honesty in itself my cause them to buy it even though it is flawed.

Nothing wrong with selling apprenticeship quality goods as long as everyone is on the same page.

[NVLeatherWorx]

7 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said:

Every large increase in the USA's ability to manufacture and every jump in infrastructure followed a civil/world war or the great depression. Hardship breeds ingenuity and resourcefulness, and shows the value in fixing what you have, cause its the last one you will get for a while. It is going to take a great hardship for the people to stop being so selfish and recognize that working together to build stuff makes all of us better.

Also, I think we need to keep the last 100 years of US foreign policy and the problems and solutions created out of this conversation.  The US is not going to get great by messing with other countries. They need to clean up their own house before looking at the neighbours.This is a whole additional topic.

Already has happened. The election results directly prove the country is fractured.

I will agree that we are fractured and I will also offer up that it has been growing for some time, but the past 8 years have seen the largest growth in that fracture and you can't deny it.  You might not agree with that statement and it is because the truth sometimes hurts very bad, but the end result is that it is still the truth and you can't deny the truth.  It is the path down the road towards what much of Europe and other nations have done over their time and the growth of the "social welfare and handout" programs to a point where they become equal to a working class wage, on top of the idea that you can provide healthcare to everyone for nothing and those who break their backs every day on a hard labor job will pay for your life, is why the United States voted the way they did this week.  It got to the point where people just said, "enough is enough" and basically put forth a mandate for something different.  And the most missed fact from this weeks election is that it wasn't only Republicans who went out there and said that enough was enough, there was a very large number of Independents and Democrats who jumped on that bandwagon as well and they come from the ranks that put the current people in office only to be let down by them; betrayal can change the common man's way of thinking and karma is a you know what.

[TinkerTailor]

1 minute ago, NVLeatherWorx said:

I will agree that we are fractured and I will also offer up that it has been growing for some time, but the past 8 years have seen the largest growth in that fracture and you can't deny it.  You might not agree with that statement and it is because the truth sometimes hurts very bad, but the end result is that it is still the truth and you can't deny the truth.  It is the path down the road towards what much of Europe and other nations have done over their time and the growth of the "social welfare and handout" programs to a point where they become equal to a working class wage, on top of the idea that you can provide healthcare to everyone for nothing and those who break their backs every day on a hard labor job will pay for your life, is why the United States voted the way they did this week.  It got to the point where people just said, "enough is enough" and basically put forth a mandate for something different.  And the most missed fact from this weeks election is that it wasn't only Republicans who went out there and said that enough was enough, there was a very large number of Independents and Democrats who jumped on that bandwagon as well and they come from the ranks that put the current people in office only to be let down by them; betrayal can change the common man's way of thinking and karma is a you know what.

Started with occupy wall street, the mortgage crisis and the fallout after. People got a small taste of hardship and a glimpse of just how bad the corporations have them by the short ones. The backlash against this corporate greed and profiteering was building way before Obama. Bush and Poppa had quite a bit to do with this situation as well. ....People took out those mortgages and credit cards during the bush period, then went bankrupt. While I can not deny that the rift has been building for at least the last 8 years i can't agree with the inference that it was created by democrats, specifically Obama.

Both parties follow the orders of the ones who give them the money. You and I don't have enough money to play in that game. Every user on this site combined does not have enough money.

The rift is NOT along partisan lines. The rift is between corporate entities and the people they take advantage of in the name of profit. These corporate entities just happen to also control the government.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

22 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said:

Started with occupy wall street, the mortgage crisis and the fallout after. People got a small taste of hardship and a glimpse of just how bad the corporations have them by the short ones. The backlash against this corporate greed and profiteering was building way before Obama. Bush and Poppa had quite a bit to do with this situation as well. ....People took out those mortgages and credit cards during the bush period, then went bankrupt. While I can not deny that the rift has been building for at least the last 8 years i can't agree with the inference that it was created by democrats, specifically Obama.

Both parties follow the orders of the ones who give them the money. You and I don't have enough money to play in that game. Every user on this site combined does not have enough money.

The rift is NOT along partisan lines. The rift is between corporate entities and the people they take advantage of in the name of profit. These corporate entities just happen to also control the government.

Bingo!!

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

5 hours ago, JLSleather said:

Yep.. is this a geographical thing  ?

I know you're making a joke here, but it really could be!  I never really thought of it that way but coming from an agricultural background and an agricultural area of the country very well could have something to do with it.  Or maybe it's just a curse imposed upon random people.

[Jarhead44706]

      Very interesting topic of discussion.

        I think the problem that The United States is facing now is "The Entitled"... you know.... The get a trophy just for participating or throw yourself down in the aisle of Toys R Us throwing a screaming fit until you get what you want generation has reached voting age, and since they have never faced real defeat, got the first taste of how life can be difficult to manage.

        I have to agree with CD, we have risen from our own ashes many times stronger than before. But it takes work, patience, and dedication to your task to do so. Not sure people are willing to that as a whole yet. We have the ability and the knowledge. I am a Millwright by trade, so I know about working with your hands and sadly they are trying to slowly phase out my craft. On a positive note they are finding out that they need us more than ever. Oddly on Wednesday, we are getting orders for more products than we have seen in a long while ( 6 years) and our stock shot up.

        I have traveled the world on the Governments ticket, albeit to places that weren't the best places to be at the time. But it showed me a lot of how the world works.

        I haven't posted any works lately because my skills aren't quite where I want them to be quite yet. But because of many of you I have focused more on the areas that I was lacking and I thank all of you for helping. By making that statement it means that I know where my weakness lies, and I am willing to improve on it. Hopefully the more will realize this  

 

[TinkerTailor]

13 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

I know you're making a joke here, but it really could be!  I never really thought of it that way but coming from an agricultural background and an agricultural area of the country very well could have something to do with it.  Or maybe it's just a curse imposed upon random people.

I think this can be a huge factor how a person develops values. My Dad taught animal science and crop science at a small agricultural college and farmed on the side for decades....  We had no TV. The antenna reception sucked. I read lots in the winter and did stuff outside on the farm anytime there was light. My attitudes and values came from day one as a child, I knew this is the way people are supposed to act. If your kids act out in the grocery store over candy, the whole town knows about it and they all whisper about how nasty your kids are. Then the preacher brings up controlling children and parenting in the sunday sermon and everyone looks right at you........Problem of bad parenting solved by shame.......Its funny how city people think that they one day they will move to the country for privacy. In reality there is less privacy in rural areas because anonymity disappears and everyone knows what everyone else is doing. The upside is there are people right there to willing help when you need it. They don't wait for the call, If they see yer old Massey stuck in the field they go right home and start up the Steiger. (provided you are not the guy who's name is on the big sign outside the farm store for writing bad cheques)

Edited November 11, 2016 by TinkerTailor

[TinkerTailor]

Bad cheques in a small town.....I totally forgot about that part, back in the day businesses used to just tape the bad cheques to the counter so every customer would see it and would know your name. Then every day in the coffee shop or at the feed store, someone would say "Hey Jim-bob, did you ever pay that bounced cheque from Petes hardware store?"

Shame is a very effective tool to keep people honest and good. We need more shame and less fear ruling the world I think. When people make decisions to prevent personal shame, these generally end up being honourable decisions. When we decide based on fear, the outcome is much more unpredictable. Fear triggers animistic survival instincts, and morals go out the window. Fear is how the world turns these days.

[JLSleather]

Well, this certainly has veered a bit Skipping the flowery speeches, you change an area by changing individuals (meaning, yourself). 

To "fix" any problem, you need to first identify the problem.  In fact, if teh intent isn't to "fix" anything, then the topic is more noise much like the other things blamed for ... whatever isn't "great" in america.  Let's take the example of "illegal" immigrants, just for example:

I've personally met a number of "illegal" immigrants.  I scoff at the term, really.  These boys (and a few girls) came looking for work.  They were willing to do the work, not just show up for a 'job' that pays them whether they did anything or not.  In fact, they freely stated (more than once occasion) that they didn't expect to be paid until the work was done and satisfactory.  They just wanted to feed their families, and were willing to work to do it.  This - of course - is the SAME thing YOUR family did (unless of course you are native to this area, which is gonna be maybe 1 in 10,000?).  I don't blame them one bit.. in fact:

I think "americans' could take a lesson here.  Got a job?  Do you accept money, even though you haven't done anything?  How many are on the forums here, while at their "job", because 'my boss is okay with it'.  Well, WHAT is it your boss is okay with?  You mean he doesn't mind paying you money to do something not related to his business?  Is that what he (or she) is okay with?  Here's a thought.. instead of 'shame', how bout we discuss PERSONAL INTEGRITY?  ANybody remember that stuff?

But instead of actually DOING MY JOB (which would make "illegals" unnecessary) we prefer to make it "illegal" for others to do exactly what we did. Yeah, you read that correctly.

So, where does change start?  I can control my house, and my yard.... Stop blaming 'the other guy' and do something beneficial -- 

So, WHY do people think "illegal" immigrants are a problem, anyway?  

Because they "take jobs" from "us"?  Largely, the jobs these people work are the ones that employers had trouble filling!  I personally employed a hispanic young man (born and raised in Houston, aka US CITIZEN) who was an honest hard-workin' kid.  Now owns his own business, and doing pretty well.  But that guy up the street sure wanted to know why I hired them "aliens" (just a note here.. get your story straight before opening the mouth.. you'll look better that way).  And I reminded him that I had offered that job to him TWICE, but he didn't want it.

Wait.. it's because they're often desperate and willing to work for LESS money than "americans".  This is often true -- and I say with a straight face that there have been times when I could use the cash and have worked for less than I would have liked.  When I was younger, I once walked onto a construction site and asked about work. Guy siad they paid $7 per hour, which I knew wouldn't pay enough to replace the clothes I was going to ruin.  So I told him I'd work TODAY for $7/hr, and tomorrow when he knew what I could do -- we gotta renegotiate (which we did).

But what is the incentive for the people who allow them to work here? ("them" turns my stomach, but I'm using that word here to make the point).

Employers:  this is a no brainer, really.  If I have employees, do I want someone who shows up EVERY day, doesn't whine about time off, actually DOES the work I'm paying him to do (not texting and cheeping, or whatever they do now), helps his co-workers (knowing it helps him to help the next guy), and hasn't asked for "light duty" because he's 40 pounds over weight,   etc....

Govt:  Every day, BILLIONS of dollars are paid to "undocumented" workers.  Money is sent in to state and federal taxes, and social security (sometimes removed from checks written, sometimes sent in by the employer to cover up for checks NOT written).  ANd it's all money the NOBODY CLAIMS back at the end of the year. BILLIONS of dollars sent to the federal government that NOBODY claims a refund on.  Need that explained more?

 

 

[JLSleather]

And.. at teh station this morning, top of the rack is yesterdays newspaper from another town... whinin' "equal rights" for "the GLFQN community", or whatever they's callin that now.

See, I'm all for EQUAL rights, but not EXTRA rights.  "Gay" couple (their word, not mine) in OH wants to sue a catholic church for refusing to do the marriage ceremony.  Hel LO>.... I thought only catholics could be married in a catholic church (and sometimes, only those who are members of THAT parish).  I'm not catholic, so no offense intended if I got something wrong in there.

EQUAL:  You know, as in "all men are created equal".  This of course was a farce, since teh people who WROTE that (supposedly wehn america was "great") had slaves and were actively killing off teh natives on teh land they were "claiming".  But the theory was a good one, and certainly it has been marketed extensively.

EQUAL:  as in ...  "you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself?  You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?"

Edited November 11, 2016 by JLSleather

[TinkerTailor]

Not sure it went too far off topic, Rural areas are consistently slow adopters of change and as such still hold some of the values that made america great before. They may have something to teach. A big part of the solution is to stop finding ways to make money off each other so we can have bigger jetskis than each other and go back to helping each other succeed. This still exists in rural areas but is gone in cities. This is a huge part of what made America great....Community and Values..

I am not even an American, I am Canadian and live in Vancouver BC, one of the most multicultural cities in the world. I am exposed to the kind of immigration now that many American cities saw from Europe in the 40s and 50s. Thousands of people wanting something better than what they have now. People who can see that even half of what the average North American has is still double what they could get at home. The hardest working people I know are the first gen immigrants. They get here and work their ass off to get a house, car, become citizens and raise a family from nothing. Many have big familys due to tradition or religion. These people have insane work ethics and frequently build successful businesses from the ground up. Their kids then inherit the business, and run it well, still remembering the hard work and values their parents put in. The second generation tends to be more affluent due to the value left behind by the parents. Then come the kids in the third generation. They never saw the hardships, always had money, got a car as a gift at 16, and end up with no work ethic at all and huge entitlement issues. They often are prejudicial towards people from the same country but have not been here as long.....Figure that one out....And remember that by the third gen they are not immigrants, they are third generation citizens. The affluence and entitlement problem is ours. It is passed down citizen to citizen.

[TinkerTailor]

7 minutes ago, JLSleather said:

EQUAL:  You know, as in "all men are created equal".  This of course was a farce, since teh people who WROTE that (supposedly wehn america was "great") had slaves and were actively killing off teh natives on teh land they were "claiming".  But the theory was a good one, and certainly it has been marketed extensively.

Yeah, but to be a man and vote you had to have a deed for land, so they were covered there........You will note it does not say all people are created equal,

[JLSleather]

Uhh.. yeah, that's what I said.  People came to this country from .. a lot of places.  "Settled" on teh land of others, which they decided constituted ownership.  Other words, these "founding fathers' decided that since they can't take it back from us, that makes it ours (no change there in a couple hundred years).  And they had children, and called them "US citizens".  ANd wrote laws, stating that anyone born here was AUTO a US citizen.  Now, people move here, claim some ground, and have babies.  The babies are US citizens by constitutional law.  So, the problem then?  

4 minutes ago, TinkerTailor said:

Yeah, but to be a man and vote you had to have a deed for land,

By statute.  Written by those who want it that way.  Not rocket science there...

Note that the country was "founded" because where these people came from they were NOT the ones "in power" and writing the rules.  They couldn't "take back" land (or rights) which were taken from them, so tehy moved here and did the same thing to others.  Not seeing the "great" just yet ...

 

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by JLSleather

[LumpenDoodle2]

You know there is a real problem with a society, when a prized possession, is a $250,000 diamond encrusted gold smart phone cover.

An unartistic, tasteless piece of expensive tat, for a mobile phone that was probibly out of fashion a month after the cover was bought.

Wrong priorities being taught.

[JLSleather]

5 minutes ago, LumpenDoodle2 said:

out of fashion a month after

Now you're getting to the heart of the issue.  "Out of fashion" is dependent on what someone ELSE thinks... not the user's own opinion.  In fact, many (I personally think MOST) people in this country (not JUST this one) don't even HAVE an opinion or a "style" of their own --- just do what the other guy is doing so I won't get any 'bad press'.  Puppets, who do things without knowing why they do them.  My wife still has a bit of that, though nothing like in teh past.  If you do things simply because "that's the way we always did it", your life is not YOURS.

Just food for thought...

Plus, I had to get on the computer and order some replacement tools.  Plus, I have no "boss" who I'm cheating out of a day's work. And plus, I've already done more this morning than some will "do" (accomplish) all week

 

[TinkerTailor]

On 11/9/2016 at 9:10 AM, TinkerTailor said:

I question, How can America make itself great again without starting from the ground up? In Tuscany there are water treatment plants built just to treat the effluent from tanneries. This is smart planning. Planning from the ground up. There are dozens of tanneries within a few hundred miles making some of the best leather in the world with basically zero pollution. None of this infrastructure exists in USA unless it is owned by the tannery. This keeps out the small guys.

If all the machines to make stuff have been sold for scrap or shipped overseas long ago, and the skills and techniques to utilize the machines have been lost to time, Where do you start? The vast track of trees to tan leather are gone....The foundries dismantled....The rail lines to them sold for condos....The agricultural land has been sold for residential. The water is used up for lawns......Going to be a long hard road.

Ok, to get it back on track: The hard facts of the above are:

-A great deal of money is needed to rebuild American manufacturing and self sufficiency. If china turns off the tap for a while, USA is screwed...They have more than enough cash reserves to stop trade for a few years.....

-Labor aside, who will pay for it? There are only two places it can come from, the people or the corporations. The only logical way to spread out the cost on the people is evenly, hence a tax. Thus you need a governmental body representing the people to take their money and spend it on water plants. Personal taxes, lots of them. The other way is to force the company to do it which takes money out of the bottom line. Prices go up and wages stay the same due to these corporate taxes (the only way to force them), or they leave the USA and manufacture elsewhere. This has been the case for a while since the 80's. Pick one.

- It is not just a matter of getting the machines back, whole systems need to be changed ie: factory farming using fossil fuel fertilizer to grow food.

- 133 billion pounds and $161 billion worth of food wasted in the USA in 2010.......this is a HUGE issue.

- A great deal of the rights for the natural resources in the USA are owned by other countries, largely china. Do you take them back? See the first point..

 

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

2 hours ago, TinkerTailor said:

A big part of the solution is to stop finding ways to make money off each other so we can have bigger jetskis than each other and go back to helping each other succeed. This still exists in rural areas but is gone in cities. This is a huge part of what made America great....Community and Values..

Umm, actually that's pretty well near gone in MY rural area too.  Big farmers competing against other big farmers to get bigger and will use any means to do it.   I'm in the southeastern part of the state and we USED to be pretty rural. We are close enough (ten miles) to what is for us, a city, 180,000 people I think (?).  A majority of the people that live within 50 miles of this "city" work in said city. They did not grow up here, and they do not have the same rural values that were present when I grew up. And it's not just them, it is a lot of the  "real" rural  people also.  When I grew up, I thought farmers were the most down to earth, honest, good, hard working people in the world.  I think my grandpa's generation, that was true. Now (and I may get me ass blasted for this) I think farmers are some of the most greedy, whiney, self-centered, hypocritical welfare recipients the country has ever seen.  What changed?  I think it's the third generation thing someone mentioned above, coupled with an out-of-date farm program that helps the rich become richer and pays people for NOT farming their ground.  And as far as the "illegals", I agree with you JLS.  Those people show up for work and do the job they're paid to do, and would rather be working than have some vacation time.  A young Hispanic man came to my shop a couple years ago. I have to admit, I was a little leery.  I visited with him a little bit and any preconceived notions I had flew out the window. It was refreshing to listen to him!!  He was on vacation that week, and works for a large dairy about 20 miles away from me. He gets one week off a year. The rest of the time I think he works 7 days a week, but Sunday is a "short day", only 4 hours. Married, with several kids, he was born in Mexico and his family moved to Chicago when he was very young. He was in a lot of trouble as a teenager. His parents shipped him off to South Dakota to some relatives, who ended up kicking him out of the house.  Long story short, the kid turned his life around.  I asked him what his goal in life was. He said, "just to be happy with what I have, and watch my kids and grandkids grow up."  That conversation with that young man left a lasting impression on me.  A lot of "our" youth could take a good lesson from him.

[MADMAX22]

 

Big Sioux and JLS that is one side of the immigration story. I use to work with alot of them when I was a teenager doing construction. The problem stems from the other half, ones that come up here to setup grow areas and meth houses in the mountains or mule the drugs up here or trying to get government hand outs and what not. 

Agree about the farming issue as well, once it was controlled by the government and they got use to the income they received well it only takes a generation of feeding birds every year to get them coming back to the same spot to get more hand outs. 

 

[AngieNZ]

yup

[bikermutt07]

Ok. I'm going to have to chime in on the illegal alien issue. Because there is an issue that has been overlooked for pretty much my entire working career.

Now I understand and agree with everyone's input about lazier and lazier generations of Americans that think they are only supposed to be paid because they were gracious enough to show up. I get it, I've seen it, I've paid for it.

This is a different note. What never gets addressed is skilled trades. Craftsmen who put their time in to learn a trade. Spent years learning how to construct something with pride, not because of what you're paid, but because you want to do it right. They way you were taught. Because, because your name is on it and you are proud of it.

I grew up and live in the south. I have worked skilled labor in one form or another in the last 23 years. I have worked hand in hand with illegal aliens.

I want you to grasp this from someone with first hand experience. Yes, illegal aliens will work hard. You get enough of them in one place long enough and you see a trend. I experienced this in my early twenties. I was the only white guy working on a crew of about twelve in a steel mill shut down. My foreman was a Mexican american. He was friends with my older brother and I wanted to make sure I impressed him. I busted tail every night (7-12s). I had to keep up with the Mexicans. After the first week I realized, these guys were taking turns working hard. 6 of them would hide and the other 6 were getting the job done. The next night? They switched. Over and over every night and I had to keep up with all of them or I'd be the lazy white boy. I kept up. 

I have seen large groups of them make demands on cost plus jobs to get their way or they were all leaving. Nothing will make a project manager fold faster than 30 hands (probably billing a 150 a man per hour) leaving at once.

I got sidetracked with those two examples. In all my time I have seen very few illegal aliens who actually brought talent, pride, and craftsmanship to the table. They slap stuff together and call it done. Trust me I have had to fix so many things in punchlists do to illegal aliens.

Now to my real point. You can't compete with "skilled" labor prices of illegal aliens. Why? Because they all live together. They will have 3-5 families living in one rent house splitting bills and all working at the same place. I have measured houses for flooring for landlords before. I was led to each bedroom where a different keyed padlock was removed so I could measure.

You add all that on top of not paying taxes, sharing the same vehicle, and receiving benefits no one in America can compete.

Now for the real point. Now you may see what the problem is......

In 1981, my dad was a commercial carpenter making $19.00 an hour. That was good money back then. He was a decent carpenter. I'm gonna toot my own horn and say I'm a really good carpenter. 

35 years later and I have never made 19.00 an hour as a carpenter. Never.

Skilled trades in the south, at least, haven't had a raise in 35 years. Is this making sense now?

It's not just minimum wage jobs they are just taking from lazy slobs at the burger joint. They have their own little private union and they take jobs from skilled craftsmen, because they the have numbers to fill the slots. 

This is why a lot of people have problems with illegal aliens. This is the problem you never hear about. 

Now as for a little perspective. One of my best friends in grade school was an illegal alien. My ex-wife is a west Texas Mexican. My firstborn son is half texmex. And yes I have worked with some illegals that have talent. I don't hate anyone, I just want the problem addressed and understood.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

1 hour ago, bikermutt07 said:

Ok. I'm going to have to chime in on the illegal alien issue. Because there is an issue that has been overlooked for pretty much my entire working career.

Now I understand and agree with everyone's input about lazier and lazier generations of Americans that think they are only supposed to be paid because they were gracious enough to show up. I get it, I've seen it, I've paid for it.

This is a different note. What never gets addressed is skilled trades. Craftsmen who put their time in to learn a trade. Spent years learning how to construct something with pride, not because of what you're paid, but because you want to do it right. They way you were taught. Because, because your name is on it and you are proud of it.

I grew up and live in the south. I have worked skilled labor in one form or another in the last 23 years. I have worked hand in hand with illegal aliens.

I want you to grasp this from someone with first hand experience. Yes, illegal aliens will work hard. You get enough of them in one place long enough and you see a trend. I experienced this in my early twenties. I was the only white guy working on a crew of about twelve in a steel mill shut down. My foreman was a Mexican american. He was friends with my older brother and I wanted to make sure I impressed him. I busted tail every night (7-12s). I had to keep up with the Mexicans. After the first week I realized, these guys were taking turns working hard. 6 of them would hide and the other 6 were getting the job done. The next night? They switched. Over and over every night and I had to keep up with all of them or I'd be the lazy white boy. I kept up. 

I have seen large groups of them make demands on cost plus jobs to get their way or they were all leaving. Nothing will make a project manager fold faster than 30 hands (probably billing a 150 a man per hour) leaving at once.

I got sidetracked with those two examples. In all my time I have seen very few illegal aliens who actually brought talent, pride, and craftsmanship to the table. They slap stuff together and call it done. Trust me I have had to fix so many things in punchlists do to illegal aliens.

Now to my real point. You can't compete with "skilled" labor prices of illegal aliens. Why? Because they all live together. They will have 3-5 families living in one rent house splitting bills and all working at the same place. I have measured houses for flooring for landlords before. I was led to each bedroom where a different keyed padlock was removed so I could measure.

You add all that on top of not paying taxes, sharing the same vehicle, and receiving benefits no one in America can compete.

Now for the real point. Now you may see what the problem is......

In 1981, my dad was a commercial carpenter making $19.00 an hour. That was good money back then. He was a decent carpenter. I'm gonna toot my own horn and say I'm a really good carpenter. 

35 years later and I have never made 19.00 an hour as a carpenter. Never.

Skilled trades in the south, at least, haven't had a raise in 35 years. Is this making sense now?

It's not just minimum wage jobs they are just taking from lazy slobs at the burger joint. They have their own little private union and they take jobs from skilled craftsmen, because they the have numbers to fill the slots. 

This is why a lot of people have problems with illegal aliens. This is the problem you never hear about. 

Now as for a little perspective. One of my best friends in grade school was an illegal alien. My ex-wife is a west Texas Mexican. My firstborn son is half texmex. And yes I have worked with some illegals that have talent. I don't hate anyone, I just want the problem addressed and understood.

Well that certainly is another side to the story, and thank you for sharing it with us.  And I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it.  Honestly, it sounds a lot like the Amish.  Talented and experienced "English" (their name for anyone white who isn't an Amish person) leather craftsmen typically do not have a lot of respect for the Amish. I can't imagine other trades are much different.  They contribute very little to "our" system or society, while working cheaper than any of us can even hope to, and sell their (oftentimes) second rate products on "Amish Craftsmanship".  Some of the sloppiest work I've ever seen has been Amish work, and that goes for leatherwork, carpentry, concrete work, masonry,  etc, etc. Not a hard and fast rule, but pretty common.  The bad thing is that they can work so cheaply, that it instills the idea in the minds of prospective buyers that everyone should be able to work that cheaply, and because that "Amish Craftsmanship" is so firmly entrenched in the publics mind, they have no idea that in many cases the raw materials they use are junk. The solution: I'll never, ever beat 'em on price, but it doesn't take much to beat 'em on quality.  Those that can't tell the difference and are buying on price alone, well I decided 15 years ago that I really don't want those people as customers anyway.

I agree that the wages of some of the skilled trades have not increased at anywhere near what other industries have, medical for example.  It is a problem, or more accurately maybe just another symptom of the real problem.

[bikermutt07]

6 hours ago, Big Sioux Saddlery said:

Well that certainly is another side to the story, and thank you for sharing it with us.  And I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean it.  Honestly, it sounds a lot like the Amish.  Talented and experienced "English" (their name for anyone white who isn't an Amish person) leather craftsmen typically do not have a lot of respect for the Amish. I can't imagine other trades are much different.  They contribute very little to "our" system or society, while working cheaper than any of us can even hope to, and sell their (oftentimes) second rate products on "Amish Craftsmanship".  Some of the sloppiest work I've ever seen has been Amish work, and that goes for leatherwork, carpentry, concrete work, masonry,  etc, etc. Not a hard and fast rule, but pretty common.  The bad thing is that they can work so cheaply, that it instills the idea in the minds of prospective buyers that everyone should be able to work that cheaply, and because that "Amish Craftsmanship" is so firmly entrenched in the publics mind, they have no idea that in many cases the raw materials they use are junk. The solution: I'll never, ever beat 'em on price, but it doesn't take much to beat 'em on quality.  Those that can't tell the difference and are buying on price alone, well I decided 15 years ago that I really don't want those people as customers anyway.

I agree that the wages of some of the skilled trades have not increased at anywhere near what other industries have, medical for example.  It is a problem, or more accurately maybe just another symptom of the real problem.

Wow. Being from the south I haven't run across any Amish. So, I have always been of the mindset that they did awesome work. Thanks for the heads up.