Singer 29-4 Timing issue or something else. Needle won't catch bobbin thread

[Deidragon]

I have a Singer 29-4, circa 1902, S/N K3403-02

While working to restore this machine we have met several challenges but thanks to the web we've been able to fix most of the issues.  We have reached one that we can't seem to solve and are desperately hoping that someone here can advise us.

The issue is that the needle thread will not capture the bobbin thread.  We aren't sure if the shuttle needs to be realigned or is there something that we missed?  We haven't been able to find anything definitive that explains how to set the timing for this specific machine.  Thank you in advance for ANY help.

Sincerely,

Nancy & Jeff

[Constabulary]

Since the needle hook timing is way off as it seems problem could be a wrong assembled gear box or the driving cam pulley at the right side of the machine is in a wrong position. From just looking at you picture I would GUESS the driving cam pulley needs a 180° rotation.That would me my diagnosis from a distances.

[MoMatt]

The timing on this machine is easy to adjust. There is a hole in the casting at the base of the arm.  The screw is a cam.  You adjust the cam till the flat part of the shuttle is even with the needle at the peak of its rotation.  If you want when I get home Sunday I could post a couple pictures. 

[Constabulary]

MoMatt - a lot of the early 29 / 29K models do not have the timing eccentric. Not sure when (or what year) they have introduced it but in this case I doubt it has the eccentric but I´m not 100% sure. I once restored a 29K1 from 1905 and it also had none. So its quite possible that this one from 1902 also has none.

@DeiDragon

Don´t know if you have removed the cam pulley before if you did you surely know the pin thats holds the pulley on the shaft is conical / tapered so you can drive it out only in one direction, otherwise you can probably damage something.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Constabulary

[Deidragon]

I have attached a picture with the needle all the way down and all the way up.  I tried to adjust the location of the starting point on the Shuttle Driving Cam by loosening the Bearing Screw that secures the Shuttle Driving Lever but it doesn't seem to make a difference. 

[Constabulary]

The bearing screw just holds the shuttle driving lever, there is no eccentric on it for adjusting the timing. The screw has to be tighten.

My guess was that the cam pulley at the right end of the machine which drives the arm up and down needs a 180° rotation.

May I ask if you have taken apart the machine for cleaning and probably have reassembled some parts (cams and / or gearbox) incorrectly? There are 3 cams on the main shaft and they all have to be in correct position otherwise the machine does not work. The small cam on the left side (feed motion cam wheel) is usually has a mark that needs to align with the mark on the shaft. The other 2 do not have marks but they have tapered pins which usually just fit from one side and you usually can see the "foot prints" of the set screw on the shaft.

Still a guess form the distance I don´t claim that I´m right with this but I still think the cam pulley needs a 180° rotation. So I would drive out the pin (remember - its tapered), loosen the set screw and turn the pulley by 180° and test again. Pulley might be tight on the shaft so you probably need a gear puller and clean the shaft and inside of the pulley with some 320 grit sand paper before you reassemble it.

EDIT:

This is needle up and needle down at my machine - notice the position of the shuttle carrier - it´s just the opposite as on your machine so I´m sure your cam pulley needs the mentioned 180° rotation.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Constabulary

[Deidragon]

Thank you so much.  The pics are a huge help.  Now I get it.  We did take the machine completely apart.  We'll try these changes and let you know how we make out.  Again, thank you!

[Constabulary]

You are welcome - hope your problem is solved.

[shoepatcher]

On ‎11‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 11:42 AM, Constabulary said:

MoMatt - a lot of the early 29 / 29K models do not have the timing eccentric. Not sure when (or what year) they have introduced it but in this case I doubt it has the eccentric but I´m not 100% sure. I once restored a 29K1 from 1905 and it also had none. So its quite possible that this one from 1902 also has none.

@DeiDragon

Don´t know if you have removed the cam pulley before if you did you surely know the pin thats holds the pulley on the shaft is conical / tapered so you can drive it out only in one direction, otherwise you can probably damage something.

C,

Singer introduced the cam adjustment screw for the shuttle on the 29K51 series which I think came out in 1923. Up till then, all the 29-1thru 5 and the early 29k1-33 only had the long drive rack on the bottom with no adjustment.
Glenn

[Constabulary]

will try to save that information - thanks Glenn

Edited November 29, 2016 by Constabulary

[Deidragon]

Actually, both Jeff and I have been working on it for a week and STILL haven't been able to make it all work.  I wish there was a video that would show us how to set it all right.

[nylonRigging]

On 11/27/2016 at 12:43 AM, Constabulary said:

The bearing screw just holds the shuttle driving lever, there is no eccentric on it for adjusting the timing. The screw has to be tighten.

My guess was that the cam pulley at the right end of the machine which drives the arm up and down needs a 180° rotation.

May I ask if you have taken apart the machine for cleaning and probably have reassembled some parts (cams and / or gearbox) incorrectly? There are 3 cams on the main shaft and they all have to be in correct position otherwise the machine does not work. The small cam on the left side (feed motion cam wheel) is usually has a mark that needs to align with the mark on the shaft. The other 2 do not have marks but they have tapered pins which usually just fit from one side and you usually can see the "foot prints" of the set screw on the shaft.

Still a guess form the distance I don´t claim that I´m right with this but I still think the cam pulley needs a 180° rotation. So I would drive out the pin (remember - its tapered), loosen the set screw and turn the pulley by 180° and test again. Pulley might be tight on the shaft so you probably need a gear puller and clean the shaft and inside of the pulley with some 320 grit sand paper before you reassemble it.

EDIT:

This is needle up and needle down at my machine - notice the position of the shuttle carrier - it´s just the opposite as on your machine so I´m sure your cam pulley needs the mentioned 180° rotation.

 

 

-

Thank You . these two Pic's. saved me and ( you cant see me do it ) , but after a couple hours of mumbling cursing and greasy fingers , I am tipping a single malt in a chilled Waterford with also giving you a salute  .

Tonight I had the bottom cover off gear drive bars and machine slipped off my blocks when tipped back . Drive bar fell out as the Hand wheel turned and gear timing went out in relation to needle stroke . To say the least, it was a Large PIA . But these Pic's I found helped bigtime .

.

Edited November 20, 2019 by nylonRigging

[stumpy]

Hi stumpy here . I found this thread very interesting. I have a similar problem,on mine the shuttle carrier is in the right place. Timing is correct dut still won't catch the bobbin thread. I saw on a video that it if the point of the bobbin carrier is blunt then it will not pick up the thread and can even cause dropped stitches . Has anybody heard of this .

[stumpy]

Just a quick note the video I saw was by Harry rogers

 

[CowboyBob]

9 minutes ago, stumpy said:

Hi stumpy here . I found this thread very interesting. I have a similar problem,on mine the shuttle carrier is in the right place. Timing is correct dut still won't catch the bobbin thread. I saw on a video that it if the point of the bobbin carrier is blunt then it will not pick up the thread and can even cause dropped stitches . Has anybody heard of this .

I hate to tell you ,your either overlooking something OR it is out of time,because if it was in time it would be sewing.Once in a while the pin on the top cam(belt pulley breaks)  the end of the screw on the pinion gear can also break.As you turn the machine the needle bar goes down ,starts to come up ,goes & then when it goes up the 2nd time is when the point of the shuttle should be above the eye of the needle.

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

21 hours ago, stumpy said:

Hi stumpy here . I found this thread very interesting. I have a similar problem. On mine the shuttle carrier is in the right place. Timing is correct but still won't catch the bobbin thread. I saw on a video that it if the point of the bobbin carrier is blunt then it will not pick up the thread and can even cause dropped stitches . Has anybody heard of this .

Make sure that your needle is the correct system. This is any of these: 29x3, 29x4, 135x16, or 135x17. Then, insert the needle all the way up inside the needle clamp and align it so that the ribbed side faces due left and the scarfed side faces due right.

Lower the needle and inspect the paddle shaped spring above the clamp. It must exert good pressure on the thread coming down the hole in the needle bar. If that spring is twisted, broken, or weak, the loop will dissolve before the hook can pick it off the needle.

See if there is a lot of slop in the shuttle gears. If there is, you will need to time it advanced to compensate for the wasted movement of the drive gears.

[stumpy]

Thanks wizcrafts of the info. Have now solved the problem. There was a broken peace of needle in the needle clamp that was named in .managed to remove it and now works lovely.thanks every one for your help it's strange how something so simple can cause so much trouble.now I can get on and make my medieval costume for my daughter's wedding. Thanks again every one.