Trying to figure out the basics

[spectre6000]

I'm attempting to make heads and tails of the sewing machine ecosystem. So far through reading thread after thread (including the oft linked sticky by Wizcrafts) I've gathered that a true walking foot machine with a powerful motor is pretty much the baseline. Beyond that, the waters get murky. It seems the standard inquiry either starts with someone offering up that they intend to do this or that, or the question of their intent is the first and primary response. Once the intended use is declared, someone knowledgeable chimes in with a suggestion of this or that machine, but I have yet to see any whys or what-fors. So here's what I'm hoping to find out: How does one actually decide?

For what purpose would one need a flatbed machine versus a cylinder machine? Is it assumed that if there is X/Y" clearance, that's the amount of hard dense leather that can be sewn? What features are necessary/desirable for what purposes? What features are less than desirable?

Assume no particular machine, brand, vendor, or price point is entirely beside the point. 

[dikman]

My 1.5c worth. You're right, it really starts with what you want to make as that will determine what you need.If all you're going to make is wallets, lightweight dress belts etc (i.e. thin leather) then you have a much bigger range to choose from because you don't need high clearance under the foot, high lift, heavy needles and heavy thread (assuming it will be either #69 or #138). A flat bed will be more than adequate, although you could use a cylinder arm as well, which will then make it easier to sew bags etc. This range is probably where the vast majority of machines fall into.

If, however, you decide to get into making holsters, cowboy action-type holsters and gun belts then these machines won't cut it. This is when you get into the heavy-weight stuff - usually cylinder arm, because they're more versatile - with high clearance under the foot (ideally 3/4" or more), large needles to handle heavier thread, and more grunt to drive the needle through the thicker leather.

From there you can get into the seriously heavy stuff that can punch through almost anything you can get under the foot! Usually with a seriously heavy price tag.

As for features, again it depends what you are making. For most people, however, particularly newbies, a servo motor is probably the most important thing to have (a clutch motor can put the fear of God into you pretty d*** quick!!!). Reverse is nice to have, for backstitching. They will generally have either a knee lift or a foot-operated lift, which one is best is debatable and it comes down to personal preference.

I'm sure others will join in with comments from a slightly different perspective than mine, which is good because I'm sure I've overlooked quite a few things!

[MADMAX22]

I suppose the reason to find out the what is being stitched or made is to narrow the field down a little bit. There are a bunch of new machines, a ton of old machines, going into the best/worst reason for each would take a while. 

Pretty sure alot of those threads you refer to give good insight into why each machine was recommended for that purpose. 

[brmax]

Flatbed for doing flat work sewing .

A cylinder arm style machine no matter the density of sew is best used for curve, bends and circle needs in projects.

Within that base info. areas of the project are a bear sometimes as if putting a boot over the cylinder and if desired, sew! as you can imagine its impossible on a flat bed.

So another example may be just like a cuff on a sleeve, this example of task relates well with a cylinder arm machine. So in recommending this style and primarily with leather there has been a number of handy tops that can be quick or in short assembled to work as a flat bed.

Weather any of this matters, I "try" to key in on projects mentioned to sew or primary interest and assign a thread size to this, as we cannot go from hair thin thread to 346 without adjustment seriously, no matter what anyone says.

So considering these tips, also certain machines lend themselves to thread sizes, thus many times a project size as well but in any case certain machines can or "cannot" use or handle a big size thread.  A tiny but important part is it really takes a bit bigger machine to pull a heavy thread up and through a chunk of leather successfully.

So respectfully one could benefit by selecting a very small group of items and focusing a machine to work in that realm efficiently.

good day there

Floyd

[spectre6000]

If one were a nerdy engineer type, and had a hard time making decisions without a spreadsheet, what would the consideration parameters be?

Thickness (and type?) of material, needle type, thread size, feed mechanism, motor size, motor type...

[brmax]

This may require consulting with the project management group and the investment personnel with an emphasis on engineering.

But all kidding aside I never worked with an engineer that was hesitant with a figure . ever!

This machine parameter is based on the designed goods to be produced, so its make a choice what you want to produce.

Any other positive answers would require a location and name to better serve the task

Floyd

[MADMAX22]

  On 12/18/2016 at 5:06 AM, spectre6000 said:

If one were a nerdy engineer type, and had a hard time making decisions without a spreadsheet, what would the consideration parameters be?

Thickness (and type?) of material, needle type, thread size, feed mechanism, motor size, motor type...

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Ok so start with the basic like BRmax said, what are you going to produce? What material are you making the items out of? This will all narrow it down to allow the more gifted people here the ability to give all kinds of good suggestions as to what the best options would be. 

Kind of like saying I want to travel from point A to point B but give no other parameters then ask a group to describe with attributes what is the best mode of transportation (bike, canoe, prop job, jet, horse, ant army....) 

Now asking the same question  but include that you need to take 30k lbs with you, from WA state to CT, do it in under 24 hrs. That would atleast narrow it down to a select bunch of cargo carrying jet/turbo prop aircraft. 

[Singermania]

Like all sewing machine sellers I get people asking me what machine they should purchase.  I usually ask if they are sewing textiles or leather and what, do they want old or new and then my main question is what thickness do they intend to sew.

The first question will sort out the flatbeds from the cylinders from the postbeds.... so if they say they want to sew shoes... most likely they want a postbed and so on.

My fave question is the thickness though, if we are talking about leather work and new machines... then the thickness will sort out the model, if they want to sew wallets and bags up to 8mm then a Cowboy 227R is the one, if they want to sew straps, belts and bridles up to 15mm then a Cowboy Cb3200 is on the money, if they want to do saddles and want a longer arm and 20mm thickness then the CB4500 will be best.

[spectre6000]

I wouldn't say I'm withholding the parameter so much as avoiding a rabbithole. The parameter is not pertinent to the design since the design is not for me to pick a sewing machine for what I'm doing right now but to learn how to compare sewing machines so that I can make my own informed decision with a more complete dataset than can (or probably should) be conveyed via text in a forum post. 

Said another way, I don't want a fish; I want the pole. I don't want to be told what machine will work best for such and such a project or group of projects, I want to be told how to choose what machines are good for what types of projects, how, why, and the obverse. 

From what I can tell so far, thickness seems to be the single biggest factor, but it seems that generally with a thicker work capacity comes thicker thread. So it's not just a matter of the thickest capacity one can afford, but the thickest capacity that allows for the use of the widest range of thread. If working with finer thread (I can't think of a scenario wherein finer thread would be combined with thicker pieces), you need a smaller machine and vice versa. 

In what seems on the surface a more straightforward case, a cylinder machine can easily be fitted with a bed to make it a flatbed machine, so there's really no reason to bother with a flatbed machine. Or is there?

The ability to reverse into the same holes seems like a genuine positive, but it seems to me that, given the way the machines work, an inability to do so is indicative of excessive wear or poor manufacturing tolerances. There could be some nuance to some particular feed mechanism that might not be as positive as others, but I feel that a quality machine should have no issues here. 

There's something of a tribal knowledge about sewing machines and leather here, and I'm trying to tease it out into something that can be referred to passively instead of running to ask the village elder or slogging through years and years of expense and experience. Wizcrafts's sticky is very informative. I read it front to back twice, and feel I know a good deal about feed mechanism, clutch versus servo motors, and about not buying into eBay marketing hype. But I didn't leave able to go and compare machines across manufacturers and make an informed decision. Similarly, I read through countless "I want to do X, what machine should I buy?" threads, and feel none the wiser. 

[Wizcrafts]

My 2 cents is as follows...

If you are new to sewing leather/canvas/vinyl/webbing and are looking for an explanation about why one machine is better suited to sewing your projects than another, look at it from a strength point of view. If the projects can be sewn with fairly thin thread, like say bonded 69 (T70), which only requires a #18 (aka 110) needle, and the thickness will not exceed about 1/4 inch and is basically one level on top, and the work is not very tough to penetrate, almost any industrial sewing machine will do. It could have a flat foot, or a roller foot and be bottom feed only. As long as the material can be held down as you sew, there won't be skipped stitches and ratted thread.

You don't start running into trouble until the material becomes very hard to feed, or penetrate, or has big differences in height from layers or seams, or exceeds the safe vertical working range of the needle and foot/feet. That is where an upholstery grade walking foot machine becomes a necessity. These machines typically are built with beefier take-up parts, larger shafts and better bearings. This allows the machine to penetrate dense materials without bending the steel parts. The tensions and foot pressure springs are also stronger than the ones used in garment quality machines.

A benefit of using a walking foot machine is that it is usually designed to handle #138 thread and #23 needles. Most of them can sew between 5/16 and 3/8 inch of material, with a chosen few able to make it to 7/16". Walking foot machines also use longer needles than garment machines.

As was already mentioned, flat work is best sewn on a flat bed machine that sits in a cutout in a table you can sit in front of. The standard table is 20" x 48". An average industrial sewing machine is about 19" long x 7" wide at the bed. There is usually about 6 or 7 inches on the right end, leaving you about 22" - 23" of flat table to the left of the needle.

If there are any shapes below the top surface, or vertical curves, or if the object being sewn is cylindrical, a cylinder arm machine is a must have. Arm holes are best sewn on such a machine. Shaped cases or items with snaps, belt loops or clips, or any hardware on the bottom need some free space under the left edge to clear the throat plate and sew inline as desired.

Cylinder arm machines can have any type of feed mechanism. But, if you are sewing leather or vinyl, which tend to be harder to feed than cloth, get a walking foot machine.

For our purposes as leather workers, the walking foot machines we prefer are triple, or compound feed, with smooth, interchangeable presser feet. The dual (top and bottom) feed machines used by sail makers are not the right machines for leather sewing as they will mark the top and bottom with their aggressive teeth.

IHTH

[spectre6000]

Could you please define or elaborate on the following:

"...basically one level on top..." I think this is the same as "any shapes below the top surface, or vertical curves, (etc.)...", but it's not immediately clear what you mean in isolation.

"...not very tough to penetrate..." What would be considered tough or not tough in this context?

"...safe vertical working range..."

"...take-up parts..."

Looking at things from a strength perspective is sort of my go-to. If money were no object, that would simply lead to the biggest mamajamma extant. I learned last night in chat that machines can have a lower limit to the thickness thread they can handle. A Campbell-Randall awl machine is probably too heavy duty (but look at that gorgeous exposed mechanism!); it states a thread capacity of 3-7 cord and/or 138-415. #138 seems to be a decent middle ground, but lighter thread is not at all an unlikely scenario. I completely don't understand the cord system... That seems to be specific to the actual fiber of the thread...

[Singermania]

To understand as much as you are trying to understand you might be under valuing the experience of the members on this forum..... in other words its a lot to expect to gain the understanding that they have gained over many years and many experiences in just a few questions.

Perhaps its like riding a horse or playing golf, you can do all the theory and understand it thoroughly, you can even practice for a couple of weeks, but without years of experience you'll never really get it all. 

[brmax]

I think your on a roll, with machines in some engineering sense, as having a limit to thread thickness.  Also rolling towards a decision with thread size, though I would just say generally a size machine below 138 and then another above 138 will be much quicker in your study,  whenever you explain the purchase.  Example the uppers on a boot will be best fabricated with the smaller thread and with a machine best suited, or a couple different small thread machines. Good luck with your choice, and description for others in how to choose sew machines from your perspective.

Floyd

 

 

[spectre6000]

Experience is necessary for the qualitative aspects of a thing. In this instance, the qualitative aspects are things like the actual act of sewing, some design of a given feature over another (i.e. servo versus clutch motor), or, lacking access to things like manufacturing tolerances or metallurgy, the quality of one make or vintage over another. Things like foot clearance, SPI, RPM, needle and thread sizes, inches of meterial, and throat depth are purely quantitative. There are numbers and units. Similarly, features like cylinder arm/flatbed, servo/clutch motor, walking foot/bottom feed/etc. are all binary characteristics that are similarly quantitative. There are qualitative aspects to each of the binary feature sets to be sure, but that's a broad enough brush and a specific enough target that it should be fairly easy to communicate in a broad sense. 

It's a big complex subject matter, and I'm approaching it from a (whatever side of the brain is associated with math and numbers versus language and aesthetics) brained perspective where the prevailing tendency is (the other side of the brain). 

The thing about committees and such is not me; someone was poking fun at my spreadsheet comment. This is for my own personal shop. I am the board and sole executor. I guess I might try to justify something to my wife, but it'll ultimately just be me justifying it to myself using her as a sounding board. I'm just an engineer. The idea of buying tens of thousands of dollars worth of machines, and all the time wasted and frustration spent using the wrong machines over that time is something I've learned to avoid through the act of buying tens of thousands of dollars worth of machines and time wasted, etc. This community exists for learning, and I'm attempting to do so. Once I feel I have enough of a base to be conversant, I'll likely call a specialist/dealer/manufacturer to get to the deeper and more technical aspects. 

[dikman]

Your analogy to fishing is interesting, you say you want the pole not the fish, but if you asked on a fishing forum what fishing rod should I get  guess what they would say? "What type of fish are you after?" Because the type of fish (to the knowledgeable fisherman) largely dictates the the type of rod, type of reel, size of line, lure/sinker/bait etc etc. In other words that is the starting point, just as with sewing machines what you want to make will dictate the type/size of machine you will need. That is a given. It doesn't matter how much one talks about other factors that is the crucial question. You are already aware that a machine that can handle heavy/large thread (and obviously thicker material) has a lower limit in that it will be extremely difficult to do fine work with it - if not impossible. This is why people usually have more than one machine.

If you decide to call a dealer/manufacture to enquire about machines, guess what they will ask first - "what do you want to sew?" The answer to that question will determine which machines they talk about.

A spreadsheet full of all this information would be a wonderful thing indeed, and in fact has been suggested before (usually by someone who is relatively new to all this) but nothing has ever eventuated mainly, I suspect, because they began to realise the enormity of the task.

[mixmkr]

I think the query was viewed from a favorite position in some aged, over upholstered seating arrangement, trying to sum up which fishing pole catches what fish and why it separates in just buying fish in the frozen food section....

IOW, forming a knowledge base to decide if bottom feeders might taste better than pan fish and if a fly rod can do it all.....and/or why not....eh?

[spectre6000]

I think mixmkr might have me better pegged. I'm not trying to figure out which sewing machine I should get, I'm trying to figure out how to figure out what sewing machine I should get. It's an extra level of abstraction as we say in software engineering.

The fish comment was in reference to the give a fish/teach to fish saying; I know just about nothing about actual fishing.

Another way to look at it might be through the saying, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail." The tools we have tend to dictate what projects we tackle and how. If all you have is a tube of superglue, you're probably not going to try to weld up an engine hoist, and if you were so bold as to try you'd not do a very good job. I don't do any particular thing with any regularity. Leatherwork, for me, is a supporting role in a much larger skillset. I do it because I can, it's fun, and it gives me another level of control over material and process. It is not often its own end. Knowing how to know what machines are good for what and why will hopefully guide me toward the best hammer for the wide variety of nails I'm likely to encounter.

[Singermania]

You can play with fancy words and paragraphs here forever, in the end you'd be better off to talk to a couple of suppliers who know what they are talking about.... talk to more than one though.   I also was a programmer, analyst programmer and analyst, and yes it is possible to study programming and write a decent program.  Its not quite so possible to study sewing machines and actually be able to operate one well and accumulate years of valuable experience.

Alternatively say what you want to sew, how thick and sit back and wait for some suggestions.  Always keeping in mind of course that if your interests are too diverse that a single machine might not cover the breadth.   A Singer 97-10 is not going to do a zig zag stitch on a neoprene stubby holder, a Pfaff 335 isn't going to sew 1" of leather and felt on a fender saddle and a cowboy CB4500 saddlery machine will take up a pair of jeans but wont sew your wife's undies.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Singermania

[Wizcrafts]

I'm outta here

[dikman]

  On 12/19/2016 at 1:50 AM, Wizcrafts said:

I'm outta here

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I can understand why. We're going in circles.....

[mixmkr]

:-D  ....can anyone help me get my bobber off the electrical wires overhead??

[Singermania]

Don't go Wiz, I was hoping you might define or elaborate on "aggressive teeth".... does this mean these teeth leap out of the machine and attack you, or perhaps it means they just have a mean disposition but don't actually bite? 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Singermania

[mixmkr]

I will offer one bit of advice.  I started out knowing basically nothing...and still have lots to learn.  Rather than analyze things to death, just start.  Buy a machine.  If it doesn't suit your needs, sell it and get another.  I got lucky and bought out a marine canvas shop, which is the type of sewing I do, which allowed me to obtain the tools and machines I needed, without really having to spend much time learning about WHAT to get.  The previous owner had already done that.  Look at what other people are doing and see what tools they use.  To "analyze" HOW to buy a machine is really not the right approach.  You just gotta jump in and if you're totally clueless, ask like has been suggested.  I'm very new here, but totally impressed with the knowledge base and I don't think you're going to get steering down the wrong path.  One man's perfect machine is going to be another's "hassle"...even if they're doing the same thing. 
BTW, I've played guitar now for 50 years.   Same thing...   If you want to learn how to play guitar, just buy one and jump in both feet.  Maybe ask some initial questions, but just do it.  (Then you might keep that useless piece of plastic, because you need to make pillow cases.... who knows...  Maybe your kids will want to sew to and need to learn on something besides a clutch motor and a 75lb beast).

[Singermania]

  Quote

 

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For you guys in the US, Gov Liquidations have a new Seiko STH-8BLD-3 in their auction.  Its a  good flatbed with compound feed....

Edited December 19, 2016 by Singermania

[dikman]

Would be a nice machine. I nearly bought one but it meant going interstate, I still regret not going to get it as the price was very good!

I'm not a programmer, so I'm trying to figure out what the OP actually wants, as the usual (logical) question of "what do you want to sew" obviously doesn't apply here.

Is it a list of all machines, with pertinent data such as motor type, needle size, thread size, foot clearance, type of "action" (straight stitch, walking foot etc) and finally what they can sew? (I can't find a "puzzled" smiley).