Trying to figure out the basics

[RockyAussie]

9 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I'm trying to figure out how to figure out what sewing machine I should get

EASY- Figure out what it is you want to make and if you want to make it occasionally or in a business like way.Then ask here there and everywhere but especially people who do it already which they think is the most suitable for that job and WHY?. That done divide it all up and let us know the conclusion as many very good people here have tried to do for you.

PS. I can think of over a hundred different types of machines that do very different jobs and applications and to know and explain the intricacy's of each would take up a a lot of space and time for why?

[Constabulary]

If you are unsure what you need and the answers here are not what you expect then check with a sewing machine dealer. They for sure will tell you what type machine you need for your project(s) when you explain them what you want to sew. You probably can test sew some of their machines.

[spectre6000]

I make what I need when I need it, and I make it right the first time so I don't have to do it a second time. That's why I can't tell you what I'm making. There's nothing on the bench right now, and the leather related things that are going to be on the bench down the road are all over the map. If I lose my wallet, I'll make a wallet. I have an old 40s-vintage office chair that I intend to reupholster after I fabricate up a few parts. I make tools all the time, and leather is generally what I use to store them in. There is no thing I do when it comes to leather, it's purely a supporting role at this point, but I'm entertaining making it more of a focus in the near future.

To mixkmr's guitar analogy, I've been playing for 20 some odd years, I used to work in a music store selling and repairing guitars, I used to teach people to play guitar, I taught myself luthiery, and have taught classes on luthiery. When I was selling guitars, people would come in all the time to buy a guitar for their kid. I could have just handed them whatever cheapo, and they'd have been happy since they only spent whatever minimum, but I'd only see the kid for lessons maybe twice. Instead, I would ask what the kid listened to (this is where everyone's head is), and if they were into something like death metal, I'd sell them a starter electric instead. I knew that different types and styles of instruments were used to make different kinds of music (this is where my head is), and I used that information to explain why the parent would be more likely to have a guitar playing child in a year versus a gig bag in a closet.

In an analogy that should be more relatable to more people: say I want a car, and I'm trying to figure out how to shop for the best car for my current and possible future needs. There are a number of different things to consider, and some of them have a greater impact than others. Vans are best at carrying lots of people, and if you take out the seats they can carry a lot of stuff AND protect it from the elements and light fingers. Trucks are best at carrying lots of things, more than vans, but it's exposed and you're not going to be able to carry too many people. If all that matters is getting from point A to point B, then just about anything will do, but it's worth considering secondary characteristics like fuel economy or comfort. More cylinders typically get you more power, but often at the cost of fuel economy. V8s are about all you usually see, make great power (usually at low RPM), but aren't typically all that great at the pump. V10s exist, but they're pretty special cases and a little flawed. V12s are a bit more common and are great for a lot of reasons, but they're really expensive. Conversely, fewer cylinders CAN save you gas, but you make less power, less torque, and the engines are often pretty crude. Six cylinders are a common middle ground, but that can be inline or V. Inline sixes are naturally balanced, super smooth, and can get really good torque at low RPM OR power at high RPM, but not both without forced induction. V-6s aren't really good at anything save having more than four and fewer than eight cylinders, and are really just an exercise in packaging and marketing and not really worth the trouble unless it's just the only option. Seat heaters are nice to have if it gets very cold, but not at all necessary. AC is also just a nice to have, but may be so nice as to be considered necessary. Infotainment systems are in everything these days, but they tend to kind of suck and are more frustrating than not; don't buy a car for the infotainment system. Cupholders are a thing. Power seats, leather seats, vinyl seats, seat bolsters, air bags... Etc.

If someone could simply give a brief overview of sewing machines in the same manner, that's all I'm looking for. I'm sure pages could be written, but pick a topic (i.e. engines) and shoot. Maybe something good can happen...

If it becomes clear there's no help to be had here, I'll have to call a dealer who may or may not have what I actually need and may or may not simply try to sell me whatever they have on hand.

Edited December 19, 2016 by spectre6000

[Constabulary]

Seems you don´t understand. There is no such list existing as there are literally several thousand different sewing machines on the market. Used, new, some 100 years old. Dozens of brands are existing and dozens of other brand are long time gone but the machines are still out there and are in use but no one knows all machines.

But if you want to spend some time checking out Singer brand machines check the ISMACS Comprehensive Singer Sewing Machine Model List - that's probably the closest but thats just Singer - there are dozens of other manufacturers.

http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/model-list/

Scroll down here - a list of approx. 60 manufacturers and I´m sure not all are listed.

http://ismacs.net/singer_sewing_machine_company/home.html

So maybe you can put together a list when your list is done feel free to post it here.

I´d say when you have a certain project you want to do come back and ask what machine you need for the certain project.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Constabulary

[spectre6000]

Seems you don't understand.... Everything you just said applies equally to cars, yet I just typed out a paragraph off the top of my head to roughly the effect I'm trying to achieve here. I think someone said something about a list of models back there, but it certainly wasn't me. For instance, cylinder and flatbed are maybe two TYPES of machines just like vans and trucks are two TYPES of cars.

[mixmkr]

Spectre....I think you might just be on the edge of bumping heads.  Going back to my guitar analogy, I would say get a GOOD guitar... Lousy guitars can't be played easily.

As a suggestion, I'd at least purchase a machine or two, that IS good...not a lousy knockoff or in bad repair.  PIck one....Just get a flatbed JUKI, Consew, Singer or whatever in the $500+ range AND a Servo motor.  Figure on at least 138 size thread and # 22 needles.  Then you'll have an overall "basic" machine.   I might go out on a limb and suggest the Sailrite LSZ1, as the resale is basically about 100% for those machines, should you want to get rid of it.  But it is a scaled down walking foot that is small and portable, good for basic upholstery and light duty leather work like belts and wallets.

This way you have SOMETHING and can figure out what you might want in addition (an acoustic, whammy bar, locking tuners, single coil pickups, 12 string...??.)  You get the picture and good luck shopping.

BTW, if you can afford $2k and that's more in line with your budget...get something better.  Otherwise buy used or get the little Sailrite.

[mixmkr]

http://www.sailrite.com/Sailrite-Ultrafeed-LSZ-1-BASIC-Walking-Foot-Sewing-Machine

 

Treat yourself to the holidays.  Yeah..it's $750, but their service is stellar and used ones on Ebay ALWAYS sell ...and typically over $600, even for ones several years old.
Is it a true leather making beast??  No...but a good all around that will work out of the box.  Make your wife new curtains, upholster that chair, wallets for yourself and friends and new dog collars for Fido.  Make marine canvas for your boating friends, patio awnings and new seat cushions and fix the leather in the ole T-Bird.  Oh.... hem those new bluejeans too and make that cowboy vest you always wanted...  And lastly...guitar straps for all your guitars, that are custom length.

[spectre6000]

You're right about bumping heads. Thank you for listening to what I'm asking and responding thoughtfully and encouragingly.

[mixmkr]

so.... let me know how you like the baby Sailrite!  :-D

Actually....learn a couple of "desired" machine model numbers and keep your eyes open for a used one.  If you're in not hurry, wait for one and grab it when one comes available...but check it out if it's used or go to a dealer and pick one up.  Whether it's the right machine or not, you need to start your learning curve asap, as it seems you know enough to talk about this stuff to be "dangerous".  If you're just going to use it "as needed", then I don't think you'll go wrong with the little Sailrite.  I've got its' "grandparent"....the Thompson PW201 mini walker, and it's a cute little beast.  Makes a racket when sewing, but plows thru 6 layers of heavy marine Sunbrella canvas with heavy thread without sweating.  Great "occasional" machine.  No need to have a Cowboy 4500 sit in the man cave, if you don't ever use it...... well...

If this is a new "hobby"..... you'll keep pretty much keep whatever you buy...unless you're accused of being a pack rat!! So...get your "first" machine now...  Pick one!!   (I'll stop pushing now)

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by mixmkr

[spectre6000]

My budget has plenty of room for the Sailright, but I think I'd spring for a cylinder arm machine. I don't have any problem with a Cowboy 4500 collecting a little dust if it's the right tool for the job when I need it. I have a pretty expansive man cave(s). 

Fortunately, I've been down the road enough to KNOW that I only know enough to be dangerous. That's why I'm asking so many questions. 

Since it's finally a business day, I called a few dealers. I got a lot of questions answered, but I'm left with more than I started. 

The first decision point, as has been discussed here, is thickness of material. Beyond that, it's all just different flavors of popsicle and they'll all get the job done. I know there's considerably more nuance than that, but since any dealer only sells a line or two, they can't really offer much more. All of the heavier duty machines were Juki 441 clones, so that is a bit more apple to apple. 

Here's where things got confusing: As anticipated, when talking to salesmen you get all manner of different answers to the same questions. For instance, one guy said Jukis are still made in Japan, one said only certain models are (not including the 441), and one said they're all Chinese. One guy said there are no currently manufactured German machines. One guy said the medium duty machines were 0-3/8" and the heavy duty machines were 0-7/8" with total overlap, a few guys said the heavy duty machines were only good down to 3/16". One guy said the medium duty machines were only good to 3/8" IF most of that was "compressible" (like upholstery foam), and 3/8" veg tan would shut it down.

Is there any light to be shed on any of these discrepancies?

Edited December 19, 2016 by spectre6000

[mixmkr]

Is there any light to be shed on any of these discrepancies?

 

they're other human beings, each with their own opinion.  Shoot...if the $ wasn't so much an issue, get the Cowboy from one of these guys here...or the clone.  Seems like they'd re-sale fast too if needed.  Unless you're sewing silk undergarments, that machine ought to fit your needs as a starter.  I guess I was waaay off base with the Sailrite.  I have no idea of your budget or how much you want to jump into this.

[mixmkr]

Let me say too.... take my advice with a grain of salt.  I've been doing marine canvas as a business for only a couple years now, but like to consider myself a quick learner and have been servicing boats for 30 yrs.....just not the canvas.

I bought out a shop and had a couple of people I could ask specific questions.... but yet they didn't want to tell me "TOO" much!!   But I think my advice is right on the money and just pick what you have a gut feeling to be what you'll need... IOW not a flatbed...not a light duty....etc     I had no idea what a JUKI LU562 was when I bought it...  just that it did what I needed it to do.   Imitate others with their machine choices.   That's why everyone is asking, "what do you want to sew??"  (Then they'll tell you to get what they have!!!  lol!)

[MADMAX22]

6 hours ago, spectre6000 said:

I make what I need when I need it, and I make it right the first time so I don't have to do it a second time. That's why I can't tell you what I'm making. There's nothing on the bench right now, and the leather related things that are going to be on the bench down the road are all over the map. If I lose my wallet, I'll make a wallet. I have an old 40s-vintage office chair that I intend to reupholster after I fabricate up a few parts. I make tools all the time, and leather is generally what I use to store them in. There is no thing I do when it comes to leather, it's purely a supporting role at this point, but I'm entertaining making it more of a focus in the near future.

To mixkmr's guitar analogy, I've been playing for 20 some odd years, I used to work in a music store selling and repairing guitars, I used to teach people to play guitar, I taught myself luthiery, and have taught classes on luthiery. When I was selling guitars, people would come in all the time to buy a guitar for their kid. I could have just handed them whatever cheapo, and they'd have been happy since they only spent whatever minimum, but I'd only see the kid for lessons maybe twice. Instead, I would ask what the kid listened to (this is where everyone's head is), and if they were into something like death metal, I'd sell them a starter electric instead. I knew that different types and styles of instruments were used to make different kinds of music (this is where my head is), and I used that information to explain why the parent would be more likely to have a guitar playing child in a year versus a gig bag in a closet.

In an analogy that should be more relatable to more people: say I want a car, and I'm trying to figure out how to shop for the best car for my current and possible future needs. There are a number of different things to consider, and some of them have a greater impact than others. Vans are best at carrying lots of people, and if you take out the seats they can carry a lot of stuff AND protect it from the elements and light fingers. Trucks are best at carrying lots of things, more than vans, but it's exposed and you're not going to be able to carry too many people. If all that matters is getting from point A to point B, then just about anything will do, but it's worth considering secondary characteristics like fuel economy or comfort. More cylinders typically get you more power, but often at the cost of fuel economy. V8s are about all you usually see, make great power (usually at low RPM), but aren't typically all that great at the pump. V10s exist, but they're pretty special cases and a little flawed. V12s are a bit more common and are great for a lot of reasons, but they're really expensive. Conversely, fewer cylinders CAN save you gas, but you make less power, less torque, and the engines are often pretty crude. Six cylinders are a common middle ground, but that can be inline or V. Inline sixes are naturally balanced, super smooth, and can get really good torque at low RPM OR power at high RPM, but not both without forced induction. V-6s aren't really good at anything save having more than four and fewer than eight cylinders, and are really just an exercise in packaging and marketing and not really worth the trouble unless it's just the only option. Seat heaters are nice to have if it gets very cold, but not at all necessary. AC is also just a nice to have, but may be so nice as to be considered necessary. Infotainment systems are in everything these days, but they tend to kind of suck and are more frustrating than not; don't buy a car for the infotainment system. Cupholders are a thing. Power seats, leather seats, vinyl seats, seat bolsters, air bags... Etc.

If someone could simply give a brief overview of sewing machines in the same manner, that's all I'm looking for. I'm sure pages could be written, but pick a topic (i.e. engines) and shoot. Maybe something good can happen...

If it becomes clear there's no help to be had here, I'll have to call a dealer who may or may not have what I actually need and may or may not simply try to sell me whatever they have on hand.

This is an example of what most here are looking for from you. Same with your car analogy. Either case you would put forth what the requirements are (thickness range, material, price range......) and by doing so the guys/gals can start narrowing the huge envelope of things available. 

[spectre6000]

I never said the money was an issue. My budget is $what-the-right-tool-costs.

I just saw a video with an unintentional closeup of the innards of a [name redacted because they're a forum sponsor, and I feel I've made enough bad waves already] machine. Between the poor casting quality of the housing, voids in some parts around the bobbin, what looked like either some pretty extreme wear or bad machining, and plating defects in a supposedly showroom new machine, I'm thinking hard about dropping the dime on a real Juki... That is, if I can lay eyes on the business bits of one to confirm that's not the case with the Juki. I told one of the guys on the phone that I'm more than willing to drop the extra dollar for quality.

[Singermania]

Yes there will be some contradiction in what dealers say... just like cars where one guy will say the opposition is made in Thailand and is no good and the other guy says its a world car made in Thailand and that's a great benefit.  I'm the Australian Cowboy Distributor and I know of one dealer in Melbourne that tells everyone our machines are rubbish..... its par for the course and you are smart enough to see thru the sales nonsense.

Its all down to what you want to sew, sounds like you are going to go from wallets to massive items.    If money was not too much a problem I'd buy a compound feed machine with a long cylinder arm with reverse, one that comes with lots of accessories.   I'm cant sell you a machine and I don't have a fave dealer in the US so don't worry I'm pushing you at any particular machine.   Most dealers will have a range from small to large.   We keep in stock two budget leather machines.. the CB105R and the CB7205BV, then we have 3 high end machines...  CB227R, CB3200 and CB4500.  After that we stock our upholstery and motor trimming range of Cb1618, Cb7132UL and CB7273ECO.   After that if you need a zig zag, pattern sewing etc we have to order it for you, but you have to know what you want.

Today we have two people coming to our showroom/workshop, they will bring sample of what they want to sew and I will let them loose on the machines, eventually the field will be narrowed and they will decide (hopefully) on one model.

Of the high end there will sew:

CB227R up to 8mm thick      CB3200 up to 15mm thick       CB4500 up to 20mm thick.

So the folk doing wallets, bags, panniers etc buy the 227R, the ones doing belts, straps, bags buy a Cb3200 and saddlers buy the CB4500

However if you buy a CB4500 its not all over at the small end, it will still take a 140 needle (1.4mm thick) and will still sew a wallet.

Below the CB3200, I suspect from what you have said that this machine is going to be as close to the money as any other.

With regards to where machines are made, there is no doubt that many most machines now come from China, some dealers have been caught pretending their machines are made in Japan and have now dropped that claim.  If they truly are made in Japan it will be reflected in a higher price.

 

[spectre6000]

1 minute ago, MADMAX22 said:

This is an example of what most here are looking for from you. Same with your car analogy. Either case you would put forth what the requirements are (thickness range, material, price range......) and by doing so the guys/gals can start narrowing the huge envelope of things available. 

Read all of what you highlighted, and the next sentence. Focus on what I'm calling attention to about those sentences in the parentheses. I'm not interested in a particular machine, I'm interested in the differences between them and why they matter. Take one step back from the vantage point of "what are you wanting to sew?", and ask why that question matters and why you answer it the way you do. What do you know that allows you to answer the question that I don't know and is causing me to have to ask it? I want to see the forest, the trees don't matter. 

If I said "wallets", "belts", or "saddles" your answer would be "X", maybe "X" again, and "Y". In this case, the "X" and "Y" are incidental. Does not matter at all. I don't care if it's a Cowboy 4500, a Sailright Ultrafeed, or a Cuisinart. I want to know what it is that makes them viable answers to that question so that I can make my own informed decision.

Really though, I'm obviously doing a terrible job trying to get the question across, because everyone is getting stuck on that. 

[Singermania]

Your question is CLEAR and everyone and their dog understands it, its time to stop playing with words, open your mind and listen to the answers.

Post after post has explained the difference between machines, why they are there and whats in them for you.   It can't be put any simpler.

If you continue on this path you are just going to be the guy at the Christmas party that nobody wants to sit next to. 

[MADMAX22]

26 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Read all of what you highlighted, and the next sentence. Focus on what I'm calling attention to about those sentences in the parentheses. I'm not interested in a particular machine, I'm interested in the differences between them and why they matter. Take one step back from the vantage point of "what are you wanting to sew?", and ask why that question matters and why you answer it the way you do. What do you know that allows you to answer the question that I don't know and is causing me to have to ask it? I want to see the forest, the trees don't matter. 

If I said "wallets", "belts", or "saddles" your answer would be "X", maybe "X" again, and "Y". In this case, the "X" and "Y" are incidental. Does not matter at all. I don't care if it's a Cowboy 4500, a Sailright Ultrafeed, or a Cuisinart. I want to know what it is that makes them viable answers to that question so that I can make my own informed decision.

Really though, I'm obviously doing a terrible job trying to get the question across, because everyone is getting stuck on that. 

I got ya, I have to work with nerdy hard headed engineers at work all the time. I was just pointing out that when you use to help someone make a decision about what they wanted, you asked what it was they liked to listen too. This gave you a path to narrow down the results and provide them suggestions based on what they theoretically wanted to do using your knowledge gained from actual experience/study/teaching. I know that you dont necessarily want to be showed what machine or machine options to buy, you want to be taught/explained all aspects sewing machines so you can turn around and buy based on what the resulting information has given you however as pointed out that could/would be pages and pages of information and some life experience thrown in to boot. 

 

[dikman]

7 minutes ago, spectre6000 said:

Really though, I'm obviously doing a terrible job trying to get the question across, because everyone is getting stuck on that. 

Yep, because the reason everyone asks "what are you wanting to sew" is because it's the logical starting pointing in deciding on a suitable machine. The reason it matters is because that will determine what is needed. Steve (above) has already suggested several possibilities, but none of those machines will be suitable for every contingency. If, as you said earlier, your intention is to have a machine handy just in case you might need it later, without knowing what that need might be, then really you will need more than one machine.

Every analogy you have used (including the hammer) always comes down to the lowest common denominator - what is it going to be used for? Once you know that then you start looking at what's needed to achieve that. Much of that information is already here, and Wiz's excellent sticky sums up most of it.

If, however, you don't want to start from the "what do you want to sew" premise then basically, read, read and read some more in order to try and understand how different sewing machines are designed for different jobs. There is no other alternative due to the complexity of the subject. That is how most of us, who weren't raised in the industry, learned.

Even Madmax, who obviously understands where you're coming from, hasn't been able to give you what you want.

 

[mixmkr]

Ha... suggestions from the Cowboy to the Ultrafeed.  Don't forget this...  it's pink too!   Good grief  ;-D   Ha...go ahead and laugh.  I used it today.  Made a silk purse out of a sow's ear!   Seriously ...hemmed my work shorts.  I'm ready for springtime!

 

Edited December 20, 2016 by mixmkr

[dikman]

Ah, but it's a Limited Edition, so must be worth having . (You wear silk shorts?).

So, today being an almost perfect day for it, I got out the Bonneville and went for a ride through the Hills to the cherry farm, to get some Christmas cherries. While enjoying the scenery, and the obligatory disgustingly nice cherry slice and cream (I look forward to it every year) and coffee, I pondered this thread, trying to figure out what I am obviously missing (besides the obligatory brain cells).

So, how does this sound - the OP would like a list of various machines, with their specifications and characteristics that make them suitable for sewing the type of material they are designed for, so that he can enter the data into a spreadsheet/database and then analyse it to determine which machine he should buy (even though, at the moment, he has absolutely no idea what said machine will be used for). He did say that what they can sew is not a factor in making a decision.

Yes/no?

Edited December 20, 2016 by dikman

[Singermania]

Good luck, you're a patient man.

[Darren Brosowski]

As a dealer in Australia my decision, based on your requirements, is pretty simple - "the door is over there"

If you ask my opinion and I make a suggestion I am legally liable if it does not do the job and you are asking for something that does not exist.

Get off your high horse and define what you really want from a machine then come back and ask.

 

[dikman]

1 hour ago, Singermania said:

Good luck, you're a patient man.

Sometimes....

I'm just trying to figure out what he's actually asking, in simple terms ('cos I'm a simple person). So far I obviously don't know.

[RockyAussie]

4 hours ago, dikman said:

So, how does this sound - the OP would like a list of various machines, with their specifications and characteristics that make them suitable for sewing the type of material they are designed for, so that he can enter the data into a spreadsheet/database and then analyse it to determine which machine he should buy (even though, at the moment, he has absolutely no idea what said machine will be used for). He did say that what they can sew is not a factor in making a decision.

Yes/no?

I reckon yes And isn't the Adelaide hills and a Bonnie one of the best in the world feelings. Was better back when they had a few more bends though.