Help New Leather Worker

[rameyleathercraft]

Please Advise. New Leatherworker here.

I have been using Feibings Dyes (non-pro) and reducing them in denatured alcohol. I've done small projects; so alcohol to dye ration is about 5:1 (typically 20cc alcohol to 5cc dye).

After I let it sit for 24 hrs; I apply two coats of neatfoot oil (from a rag); and then a armor-all leather conditioner gel.

 

My problem; the leather still remains fairly stiff; and flexing tends to "stretch" the color paler. Is this a problem with my dye technique; finishes; or leather?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[bikermutt07]

Hard to say..... It could very well just be the leather. Cheap oldish leather can be pretty dried out and stiff.

You might want to try some Aussie from fiebings. Just rub it in a little and let it set for a day or two.

That should soften it up pretty good.

[Halitech]

couple of questions

1. where did you get the leather

2. how thick (weight) is the leather

3. if you apply some neatsfoot oil to it before dying, does it get softer

4. does it get stiffer after you apply the armour all?

[NVLeatherWorx]

And another suggestion is to stop using things like Armor All and other general marketplace leather conditioners as they are not meant to be used on the leathers that we use to create finished goods.  In fact, the conditioning capabilities of these types of products is about as minimal as you will get; they are nothing more than overloaded chemical compounds that are marketed for those who have no knowledge about what really works and how to treat leather.  Get one of the Fiebing's leather finishes, Leather Balm w/Atom Wax comes to mind, and give it a whirl; you will see a dramatic difference in the outcome.  The amount of denatured alcohol that you are using is also drying your leather out so you would have to be adding a lot of oil back into the leather to get some the pliability back which it sounds like you haven't given it enough.  There really is no reason to dilute the dyes as they are intended (and blended) to be used as is the first time you open the bottle.  Reality is that they are less harsh on the leather at full strength than they are once you start adding more chemical to the equation.  With vegetable-tanned leather the chemicals are the killer and they will ruin some of the finest leather, and works, if you start playing with the recipe.  I am sure that this statement will get some push back but it is time that the reality of how this trade works and what is truly the best method to use gets out there for those who are serious about doing it right and not just the "well, my advice is" community. Give a pure application of the dye a chance on a scrap piece of leather and then give it some Neatsfoot Oil, but it must be Pure Neatsfoot Oil, not a compound (again, more chemical than real conditioner) and see how it comes out.  Give it more oil if necessary and do this until the leather has some pliability to it but make sure that you don't saturate it.  You might be surprised in the difference.  Good luck and keep working at it.

[rameyleathercraft]

thanks for the replies. It helps a lot.

To answer some questions...

1) leather is 8-9oz; veg tanned, double shoulder from Tandy's. I think I paid around $40 if that is a tell of the quality. It is also very "hairy" on the flesh side. (please; help me understand how to choose better quality leather and where! This leather was fine for the project; but better items will need better leather in the future).

2) I diluted the feibings dye because they always came out much darker than I wanted. A light brown would look like dark brown. I "cut" the dye to get different shades of color. I have seen no noticeable difference in the "stiffness" between pure dye and my "cut dye". So Im not too concerned there.

3) I typically dampen leather before dying with water --- is neatsfoot a better way to go?

4) the armoral helps soften the leather a good bit along with the neatsfoot oil (from Tandy as well).

 

What is a good sealant besides neatsfoot oil? I heard of "sno-seal" but I didn't find any at my local walmart (which stated they have it).

[Halitech]

neatsfoot oil is not a finisher, it simply adds oils back into the leather that dying and tooling removes

you want leather that is flat on the flesh side. If it's hairy or stringy, it's lower quality.

See NVL's response about armour all

I use Aussie conditioner and beeswax mainly and sometimes tan kote or resolene

[bikermutt07]

I have that same double shoulder in my closet. I bought it before I knew any better.

Springfield Leather will be a cut above Tandy on leather.

Lots of better places to, maverick, hide house, Acadia has some nice pull up leathers for cheap.

[Bigfoote]

I use olive oil or Pure Neatsfoot oil to soften the leather then resolene cut 50/50 with water for a finish. You can get some real poor leather at Tandy, good to practice with but my experience is go elsewhere where they sell some good leather like Herman oak or Wicket and Craig.

[NVLeatherWorx]

18 hours ago, Bigfoote said:

I use olive oil or Pure Neatsfoot oil to soften the leather then resolene cut 50/50 with water for a finish. You can get some real poor leather at Tandy, good to practice with but my experience is go elsewhere where they sell some good leather like Herman oak or Wicket and Craig.

You nailed it with this one.  

 

To Everyone else:  Tandy does not provide any quality leather that is worthy of being used for "production" work but it is great for a test or a prototype item just to show off.  When you take into consideration that their top grade is their Oak Leaf category and that when you actually shop it you will not find any consistency within the same weight of that line alone; the range of quality is from semi-clean to the worst looking thing you will ever see and everything in between.  Springfield and Hide House both deal with H.O. and they heads and tails above anything Tandy can put in your hands. And, as others have already stated, there are other sources out there that offer better leather at a good price.

[rameyleathercraft]

Thanks for the input guys. Here are the changes I'll make,

1). Order Aussie Conditioner as a finish; beeswax base finish helps improve water resistance.

2). Order better quality leather; from my searches, I think I will be ordering HO leather from Springfield leather ~10.99 for B grade (all they had available.)

3). I will continue cutting my feibings dye with denatured alcohol; as I have heard that is fine and normal practice and I like testing colors.

 

Additional Questions....

What "cut" of the hide is generally the most flexible project wise.

what "cut" is best? Is shoulder typically very tough and stiff? Is the bend a more supple, but still durable leather?

(Majority of my projects are journal covers, modina style field notes, knife sheaths, holsters, messenger bags, and eventually more complicated computer cases.The first leather I bought was 8-9 oz double shoulder -Tandy and it was hard to make flexible enough for some projects.)

Is a 4mm pricking iron set good for most projects? What mm difference do you think is best for small and larger projects?

 

Thanks again.

 

 

 

[Mattsbagger]

8/9 is a pretty heavy leather for note covers and stuff. I use 4/5 for wallet body and 2/3 for pockets. I use 7/8 for holsters. 6 spi for holsters and 8 spi on wallets is my rule of thumb. I threw my light brown non pro Fiebings dye away because never could get a decent color. I've made messenger bags out of 3/4 flexible but sturdy enough to hold its shape. The bend is generally the "best" most uniform cut. It's rare to get good leather at Tandy. NEVER buy there craftsman grade. It might look ok but will never dye uniform and all kinds of scars and "fixes" will show up when you try to dye it. This is what I've learned in 5 months of doing leather. Save the Tandy leather for practice pieces. I know there are plenty of people on here with way more experience than me who can chime in with better advise.Good luck in your journey. 

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Mattsbagger

[rameyleathercraft]

3 minutes ago, Mattsbagger said:

8/9 is a pretty heavy leather for note covers and stuff. I use 4/5 for wallet body and 2/3 for pockets. I use 7/8 for holsters. 6 spi for holsters and 8 spi on wallets is my rule of thumb. I threw my light brown non pro Fiebings dye away because never could get a decent color. I've made messenger bags out of 3/4 flexible but sturdy enough to hold its shape. The bend is generally the "best" most uniform cut. It's rare to get good leather at Tandy. NEVER buy there craftsman grade. It might look ok but will never dye uniform and all kinds of scars and "fixes" will show up when you try to dye it. This is what I've learned in 5 months of doing leather. Save the Tandy leather for practice pieces. I know there are plenty of people on here with way more experience than me who can chime in with better advise.Good luck in your journey. 

That's great information, thank you. SPI; is that "stitches per inch"?

 

[Mattsbagger]

Yes 8 spi is 3mm ish 6 spi is 5mm ish. Basically do what looks best to you. Also thread size has a lot to do with your stitching. I use Tiger thread. More stitches=smaller thread. I use .8mm and 1mm.

[Mattsbagger]

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Mattsbagger
Wrong post sorry.lol

[rameyleathercraft]

Thank you. Good information. Very helpful.

 

[Bigfoote]

I use a 4mm with .8 or 1.0 tiger thread. This is a good do anything middle of the road size. If your just starting out, don't buy cheap tools, they are a waste of money and you will not get good results. Some leather suppliers will sell smaller square pieces of leather, which will allow you to try some out before buying a whole side.

12 hours ago, rameyleathercraft said:

8/9 is a pretty heavy leather for note covers and stuff. I use 4/5 for wallet body and 2/3 for pockets. I use 7/8 for holsters.

Mattsbagger gave you some good advice on thickness, pretty much what everyone uses. If your looking for stitching chisels I might recommend these : https://leathercrafttools.com/item?id=6540  They go against the " don't buy cheap tools" rule, and are awesome IMHO. I bought a six tooth and a two tooth, pretty much all you need. I have three other brands of chisels, none compare. They will only barely stitch through about double 8oz leather, so if your doing a lot of holsters you will have to use your awl with them. I do mostly wallets so they are great. I use Tandy leather to make patterns and prototypes because it is cheap. It doesn't tool well, and is generally poor quality, but does have a use when you are fooling around trying new stuff.

[rameyleathercraft]

Thanks for the responses. I have a Japanese set of diamond chisels (prinking irons) 4mm. They are very good and I use them the most. I didn't know until recently that im really not supposed to use them to punch all the way through the leather, just mostly then finish with my awl. So that's a change.

Concerning the dye. I started pre-dampening the leather with a coat of neatsfoot oil. It has made a huge difference! The leather remains much more supple after dying. I then buff and apply my new Aussie Leather Conditioner; which really helps as well! Definitely a much improved finish. Thanks all.

I'll need to order some thread sizes and maybe a different chisel set. right now all I have is the 4mm, and awl, and a stitching wheel with three different "wheels".

 

 

[Brianm77]

I have had decent luck with fiebings reducer instead of alcohol.  I did not like how dark the light brown was either.  I used between 2:1 and  5:1 can't remember now and it worked good. Neetsfoot oil first like stated before. 

As far as the pricking irons, if they are the same ones i use then why not pound all the way through, sure is a lot faster. Maybe a more seasoned leather worker can chime in with advice on that, but that is what I do. 

[Mattsbagger]

Pricking irons are meant to just mark for an awl. Stitching chisel is meant to punch all the way through Japanese style. Not trying to be a knob. It's not a terminology thing they are used different. It can cause confusion.

[bikermutt07]

Stitching is like fishing you can go as simple or extreme as you want. You can get some really good looking stitches with chisels. It's what I have for now. But you can refine it farther. This is where picking irons and matching thread with awl size will come into play. Even the depth you pierce the awl and how much tension you apply affect the final product.

The experts around here have all of that figured out and their stitches look flawless.

Mine not so much. 

[Brianm77]

Well then maybe what I have are not pricking irons.  They have straight prongs long enough to go through more than 10 or 12 oz of leather.  Some craft-sha som seiwa and some cheapie from amazon that I have also been pretty happy with. 

[Mattsbagger]

Yep probably chisel not pricking irons. Chisel Japanese style. Pricking irons European style. Overstitch wheel American/Western style. Stitch groove is mostly Western style. Scratch line/crease is more common in England and Europe. Nigel Armitage has some awesome videos on hand stitching styles and techniques also reviews. Well worth the time to watch. IMO

[strathmoredesigns]

On 2/8/2017 at 8:29 PM, rameyleathercraft said:

My problem; the leather still remains fairly stiff; and flexing tends to "stretch" the color paler. Is this a problem with my dye technique; finishes; or leather?

I'm having a similar problem. I bought an inch wide 4 oz. strip from Tandy to use for a camera strap. I wiped it down with Fiebing's Deglazer first, then applied about 3 coats of Angelus Light Brown Leather Dye (alcohol based). It also seemed to come out really dark (quite similar to a Chocolate Brown one I made last week). I don't know if the dark color is because I used 3 coats or just the nature of the dye. I used that many because that's what it took to get an even finish. Anyway, I let that dry (I may have helped the drying process along a little with a hair dryer set on cool and low), then applied two coats of Eco-Flo Super Shene. My strap looks a little darker than expected, but still good. My main problem is that the grain side edges are sort of curling inward and the whole thing so much stiffer than the bit of scrap I have left over from my original strip. I applied a light coating of Dr. Jackson's Neatsfoot Oil this afternoon, but haven't really noticed a difference. It's still quite stiff and the grain side edges are still curling inwards.

From this feed, I've gathered that:

• I should get my leather from somewhere other than Tandy (I have some import strips ordered from Springfield, not Herman Oaks, I know, but I'm still pretty new and making lots of mistakes. Anyone know how Springfield's import strips compare to Tandy's strips?)
• I should apply neatsfoot oil before I apply my dye to help get an even coat. Should I wait for the oil to dry completely or should it still be some level of wet, and if so, how wet?

A couple of things I'm still wondering:

• Is there anything I can do to soften/salvage the strip I've made now?
• I've only put the neatsfoot oil on the grain side so far, but I don't actually know if that's the correct way to apply it. Is this product grain side only or should the flesh side also get a coating?
• The manager at Tandy also mentioned putting the oil on between the dye and Super Shene. I haven't tried this yet, but what do you guys think of this idea?
• Could I be applying too many coats of dye which in turn could be drying out my strip and/or causing the color to be so dark?
• I also have, but haven't used, some Fiebing's Aussie Leather Conditioner. Would using that help at all? If so, grain and flesh sides?

Any thoughts are appreciated!

 

[Mattsbagger]

Leather will alwaye lighten when flexed. Whats happening is where it flexed you are steering the dye. Only way for it not to happen is to dye with it flexed. Like fully make and form a holster then dip dye. Does that make sense? Any dye will dry leather out a bit and the more spirit in it to thin it will make it worse. I put neetsfoot on after dye is dry. let it sit 24 hrs then finish. I have also used Aussie to condition and finish. First things first though is to buff with a dry cloth until your arm falls off or no dye picks up on the cloth. Then use a DAMP not wet sponge and swipe across to get any remaining pigment. Pigment is a solid that is absorbed in to the leather via the spirit in the dye. Don't put neetsfoot on the flesh side and don't use much. I have a 4 oz bottle just finished and it was bought in September. Used on probably 20 items or more. Can alway add more but can't take it out. It can make leather soggy if over used.

[bikermutt07]

About dyeing, put a light coat of full strength and then walk away for a day. Do not rub on it while it's still wet. The next day buff it like Matt said. Then apply another coat if needed. If you apply neatsfoot oil prior to dying, I suggest a day for that to absorb as well.

Slowing everything down makes for better products in leather.

Apply Aussie to the grain side (camera strap) and give it a day or two to absorb. Then buff it. Should soften it right up.

Any conditioners you use you will want to apply before leather sheen, spray lac, or any other finish.