205-370 refusing to take 794 system needles?

[HENDREFORGAN]

We bought a second hand 205-370 last Autumn and it's been more than a bit of a hassle getting some parts, needles, etc. for it here in the UK.  They're truly quite a rare beast here.   With some other work getting in the way before we put "The Beast" to full occupation it's not been until the last few weeks we've been using it regularly . . and we've hit numerous issues . . but the one that has us stumped is that it cannot use the "794 system" needles!  WTF!!!  That is the chosen, recommended size - indeed only size we think - for this machine.  We didn't pay much attention to the needles the machine came with at first, the machine was fitted with a fat one used to produce the grey upholstery hide sample it arrived with and the opened and unopened packets of needles in it's drawer were round point for clothing only.

We believe the previous owners used the 205 for work of a lighter nature than what it is capable of and what we bought it for, we need to use the 205 for heavy harness leather work, this machine is only one of two worldwide that it the ultimate for this work and we do know it's strength means it'll still sew when others will grind to a halt.  So any issue with needles is worrying.  To that end we purchased various points of new needles of the correct size for the 205, this machine uses the 794 range, no other "system" is recommended.  We then also sourced the correct, heavier "button twist" type of thread that is OK for the 205 and we need for heavy leather-work.  We fitted our first needle and set up the machine to sew only to find that the first needle broke almost immediately, another fitted showed instantly that it's diamond point was burred over. We checked that we were fitting the needles correctly - we were - and our timing, etc. was spot on.

It is then we looked in more depth at the needles the 205 came with. They were a completely different system.  The one fitted for the leather sample was a Singer 250/27 whilst the packets in the drawer were Schmetz "System 7x23", they were all size 180/24. These are all too small, technically, the 205 was showing it's great aptitude to be tolerant we think.  Popping open the cover at the end of the cylinder arm we fitted a new needle and moved it slowly by hand.  The needle, a GB 200 leather point, was TOO LONG and it's point was first glancing off the bobbin shuttle and then colliding with the swing hinge for that part.  So we fitted one of the 180/24 needles and that cleared all obstructions.  So now we know why this 205 came with the wrong sizes of needles.

But the 205 is designed to use ONLY a 794 "system" needle.  The pair of us took time out one day to fully go through the 205's whole needle and shuttle/hook assembly carefully taking notes and photo's and we hope eventually got some answers.   A few of these photo's are attached beneath our text, "A" shows that we're missing the two ring spacers and that the inner ring is simply pushed too far forward . . by it's four springs maybe?  "B" shows the needle size that came with the machine passing the bobbin shuttle whilst "C" shows the "794" hitting the same part.  "D" shows the two needle sizes side by side and a better view of the "794" hitting the side of the bobbin shuttles hinge . . the inevitable happens each time.

This is where we think this 205 is "going wrong".

The Machine's bobbin housing sits too far forward and is not spring loaded as it should be, this is totally proven by some of Uwe's video.  The grub screw in the side of the cylinder arm which locks the mechanism is not performing as it should it almost misses the inner ring completely when it's required to hold that assembly - so the bobbin housing may be in the wrong place.  Incidentally the one shown in our pix is a temporary machine screw replacement to help it work . . the fitted grub screw has a chamfered point.  There are also two spring spacers missing and the four small springs behind the hook assembly may also be wrong too.  Whilst the needle/hook will collect the bobbin thread the correct needle collides with the bobbin case and, when the smaller incorrectly sized needles that came with the 205 are used, whilst these needles don't hit anything they do drop lower stitches from time to time.  Needle too short? This may also be why the two needle protection spacers originally fitted are far too big at the pair totalling 3.60 mm, they don't as such effect sewing but they do an important role in sewing heavy work.  They prevent the needle breaking under deflection by weight, so this 205 has the maximum spacing . . was this to try and solve the mechanical issues breaking needles?

We would VERY much appreciate ANY input to solving our issue from fellow forum members . . thank you. 

[Gregg From Keystone Sewing]

If they were formerly using the shorter, incorrect needle system, you are going to have to raise the needle bar to the correct height to accommodate the correct needle.  

As for spacers, Adler 205 uses shims here to bring the hook closer or farther away, depending on needle thickness, sold in .2mm and .3mm shims.

 

[Diyer]

Hi there. I have just recently purchased the same machine, and have been busy doing all the adjustments needed.

Firstly-spares.I gave a long list of parts I wanted for my machine to Solent Sewing, who are authorised Durkopp Adler dealers. It was in Excel format, as I wanted to make life easy. They came back pretty promptly with prices and stock- most items were out of stock. After about a week, I had the answer for time for the back order- 7 to 10 days stated. I can have parts faster, by using College Sewing, who listed most parts in stock, but their parts are 20% higher cost.

You will find "pipe cleaners" inside the end of the head, and wound round some of the motion actuators- unless someone has taken them off. The parts book does not list them, so I found a supplier of WOOL ones in the UK- World of wool in Yorkshire. Your machine has an oiling system that uses wicks-check yours are all in place by looking at the parts book and UWE's videos.One of his videos has a nice shot of the "hamslice" on the end of the head, with its two oil wicks and plastic pipes.

I order from the UK because it is quicker than here in Portugal. I tried to find an online seller in Germany, but no luck.

Your short needles are what is fitted to my Adler 105/64, a predecessor to the 205. One of the reasons your machine might have been set up for the shorter needles is so that they have a greater range of needle sizes below a 160. Schmetz list 160 in non leather points, but it would really need the correct little needle spacer to work well in the 794 size.

The 4 small springs you are missing- a tempoary arrangement can be made from biro springs. This is what I am doing until the correct ones turn up. Get extras- they have a habit of "jumping out".

The 0.2 and 0.3 shims are part of the original factory setup, and you will need to get them.

From the photos the timing looks completely wrong.

Start again using the correct Adler manual which can be downloaded from the Durkopp Adler website. It has "rules" which give you the work sequence and adjustments. Hook timing means you need to get at the shaft running along the cylinder arm, which is a good workout for stomach muscles! I have a feeling the illustration shows the flatbed model. The part I am talking about is on page 2 of the parts book, pt no 205 150103 shaft, and collar 205 150143- that's what you will be undoing to alter the timing, and also set the shaft further in or out.

The manual is really annoying, because it keeps on referring to pictures at the end, and you might find it easier to print out the pictures first.

Yes, needle bar height will need changing.

I am by no means an expert, but speak from recent experience.

 

[SolarLeatherMachines]

Ooft.  That's a headache.  Nothing constructive to say.  Just makes my head hurt.  

Edited March 6, 2017 by SolarLeatherMachines

[Uwe]

As diyer mentioned above, the Durkopp Adler 205 service manual ( DA-205-370-Service-Manual.pdf) describes, among other things, how to set the needle bar height. Below are two screenshots for quick reference. 

 

From that paragraph above, I find actually hard to visualize what they mean. The German version is cryptic, and the translation didn't improve it.

Here are a few pictures that show how your needle and tip of the hook should to be aligned for proper needle bar height according to the service manual. When the tip of the hook peeks a tiny bit past the needle, the bottom of the hook and the top of the eye of the needle should line up.

I re-edited a video I made some time ago that shows how this looks in on the machine in slow motion. It also shows how the eye of the needle, when the needle is at its lowest point, does not dip below the outer diameter of the hook driver. That's what they mean in that awkwardly worded "Note" in the instructions above. In the video the needle is actually a tad lower than what the specs call for, but the machine sure was making beautiful, reliable stitches. So there's a little bit of wiggle room.

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Uwe

[HENDREFORGAN]

@Diyer . . @Uwe . .   Thank you!

We felt it in our bones that something wasn't right about our 205-370 and that the question of why was it fitted with the wrong needles might be an indication of other issues . . your comments, together with another of Uwe's excellent videos, is unparalleled help.  Now we a direction to follow with our servicing.

We are relative newbies to industrial sewing machines so a 205-370 is just a bit "jumping in with two feet" but I think our experience may mirror many other members.  You know when you buy second hand that it is "buyer beware" but if the machine has come from a commercial and/or factory environment and is provided with "test pieces" you do assume that it's working within limits?  What you somehow never assume is that commercial use has been less than standard or that the machines use wasn't anywhere near maximum tolerances?  This machine may be a heavyweight but it's also a bit of a "Gentle Giant" and we think it's likely you can give it abuse and get away with it?  Anyway . . ours was/is not in anyway set up properly yet, not only it's previous owner, but also us did sew with it. 

@Diyer  We too have noticed the pipe cleaner . . we refer to it as "The Purple Caterpillar" . . and responding to a thread from @Uwe 

sometime ago asking about how we replaced it?  Our 205-370 seems to have eat a lot of it's "Purple Caterpillar" . . indeed we also notice that the "oiling disc" ( 204 15 005 0) behind the shuttle/hook is well crumpled.  Honestly?  We're looking for an old fashioned oil can with a long, fine tubular spout so that we can do it all manually each month.

We'll report back when we've taken the advice here to the sewing machine and - hopefully - fixed this issue.

[shoepatcher]

On this Adler 205, to set the needle bar to the correct height with a 794 needle which is the correct needle system, you measure from the very bottom of the needle bar  to the bottom of the oil holder which is the black plastic cover piece that the needle bar comes out of above the feet.  That distance should be 44mm.  This sets the correct height of the needle bar.  Having done that, you then go under the arm and loosen the collar that holds together the bottom main shaft that drives the shuttle driver.  You then time the hook having loosen the collar to the needle in the needle bar as described by Uwe above.   This is from Allen at Weaver who has worked on these machines for over 20 years.

I have used this system to correct and time  the 4  205's we have at my plant.  Hope  this helps.

glenn