Needle System Confusion

[robinsone]

Recently new to the heavy duty sewing. I repair and modify hockey equipment but rely on leather or industrial sewing machines. I've acquired a Sears/Kenmore 158.504, as well as a Chinese Shoe Patcher (Singer 29k clone) and a Mercury M-120 (Singer 45k, SC-5, GA-5 clone). These allow me a certain level of speed and access as well as a increasing needle/thread size per application.

What I am having issues with is the Needle System and corresponding Needle Size. I found this table online and because I am using single needle heavy duty machines or equivalent should I be choosing needle sizes according to the 135x5 Needle system. I'm looking for some clarity so I don't purchase needles for the wrong system or that wouldn't fit the machines I am currently using.

Any assistance would be appreciated. 

[gottaknow]

You first have to choose the correct needle class for the machine you have. Those are the numbers that are shown in your chart.

Then, there are needle sizes available in each of those needle classes that you choose based on what you're sewing and how thick your material is as well as the thread you're using.

The sizes are consistent with each needle class. For example. 125/20 is the same size needle. The 125 is the metric size, the 20 is the Singer designation. Union Special sizes take it a step farther. They call a size 20 needle .049. Most needles are labeled omitting the Union Special size. A needle with the size designation 110/18 is smaller than the 125/20 needle.

Long story short, first determine what needle class fits your particular machine, then choose the size base on what you're sewing. That chart is deceiving  because a heavy duty zig zag or straight stitch machine may use either 135x7 or 135x17. In turn, needle class 128 fits not only many coverstitch models, it also fits multi-needle chainstitch machines, as does needle class 108 and 113. Class 108 also fits a Union Special overlock machine. You have to know what particular needle class your model of machine requires.

Regards, Eric

Edited April 4, 2017 by gottaknow

[Matt S]

The 45K uses 214 or 328 class needles. If you have a 45K clone it will most likely be setup for this system but check your manual for this detail. As to the Chinese patcher it will depend on which type you have. The most common one (an inexpensive hand-crank that is sold with a tripod) is not a Singer 29K clone, though it is often decribed as such. I have have read conflicting reports as to what needle system it uses.

 

As Eric says, once you know your needle system choose a size to suit the thread you use and a point style to suit the material you are sewing. Ignore the chart you posted, it shows typical uses and is not at all universal.

[Wizcrafts]

I have a similar Kenmore zig-zag machine at home and it uses the standard domestic needle System HAx1. They are sold at Walmart, Joann Fabrics and everywhere home sewing machines and fabrics are sold.

[Yetibelle]

Industrial sewing needles and thread take a little effort to master.  There are a few terms you need to understand to sort this out.

Needle System, Needle Size,  Needle Point

The Needle System may have a different name\ID depending on the company, country or brand of needle your looking at.  So a Singer Needle System135x17, is also referred to DPx17, or SY-3355 same needle with (3) ways to identify it.  The needle size refers to how thick/thin the needle is.  Most needles come in a range of size 14-27, with the size 14 being a thin and the 27 much thicker.  Here are (3) popular needle brands,  They are the same Needle System 135X17, but they are 3 different sizes 22-20-23.  The size can be in Metric (NM) and Singer size (yet another confusing variable).  Canu is for Schmetz needles only as an attempt to standardize.  To first get the Needle System you have to refer to the specific machine manual. Then you pick the size and point depending on the item your sewing and the thread your sewing with.

Here is the chart that converts Metric to Singer size and the recommended thread your thinking of using with that size.  This is just for Needle Size you still need to pick the Needle System first.  Thread comes in TEX (thick/thin) so if you want to use thread size 207 the chart below recommends a size 24 (180NM) needle, in this case for Needle System 135X7

Then you also need to pick the right needle point for the type of sewing your doing. Here is the point chart.

 

 

 

 

[robinsone]

That's very helpful. Is there a good resource where I can find equivalent needle system descriptions or table. I have some information concerning the needle systems but I'm not sure if it is dated or what the popular equivalent might be. I've searched extensively online but I can't seem to find a good resource.

Let me know if you have any good ideas or linker, thanks.

 

[Yetibelle]

You pick the machine typically based on the type of work your producing.  So is it thick heavy work, or medium to light work?  You need to look at the description of the machine (or manual) and then it will give you the Needle System (type) in the specs.  Some machines may use the same Needle System but the machines are setup and may be totally different for different work.  The 135X17 Needle System can come in a flat bed, post bed, or cylinder arm machine.  Plus flat bed, post bed, or cylinder arm machines can come in light or heavy Needle Systems, just like if you buy a truck, you want the right truck for the right job. 

So if you go over to the Techsew website you can see how they divide the machines into "type of work" categories.  Pick a category on the type of work you want to produce and the machine descriptions will specify the needle systems (type).

http://www.techsew.com/machinery/industrial-sewing-machines.html

So looking at the Techsew 3850 (new machine) in the specs it shows the Needle System, and the needle size.  This may be to much machine for what your making, but it is an example of how to find the capabilities of the machine and the thread and needles it can handle.

Specifications:

• Needle type: 794 or 7x3
• Needle sizes: 18 to 27
• Thread sizes: 69 to 415
• Presser foot clearance: 5/8"
• Sewing capacity: 5-6oz leather up to 1/2" thickness
• Cylinder bed length: 10.5"
• Maximum stitch length: 13mm
• Maximum sewing speed: 800 SPM
• Techsew SmartServo motor: 800W, 1HP, 110V, 300 to 1800RPM speed settings, LED display, completely silent when idle and reduced noise during operation.

 

[Jimbo58]

Got a cobra model 26  with top thread weight of 138 what weight bobbin thread should I use

[kgg]

1 hour ago, Jimbo58 said:

Got a cobra model 26  with top thread weight of 138 what weight bobbin thread should I use

I would suggest using 138 in the bobbin. If you use a smaller thread in the bobbin the strength of the seam will be limited to the lesser thread size in the bobbin. If you use a larger thread in the bobbin say 207 the seam strength will be limited to the capacity of the 138 thread on the top.

kgg

[Jimbo58]

Thanks so much for info I was told bobbin had to always be less.  But I’m new to the industrial leather machines  so I appreciate your help have a great day

[Jimbo58]

21 hours ago, kgg said:

I would suggest using 138 in the bobbin. If you use a smaller thread in the bobbin the strength of the seam will be limited to the lesser thread size in the bobbin. If you use a larger thread in the bobbin say 207 the seam strength will be limited to the capacity of the 138 thread on the top.

kgg

Thanks it worked perfect