Re doing my first saddle

[j20]

New here, been repairing saddles and doing small stuff for a while but never any major stuff, just traded a perfectly fine 10 year old team roping saddle for an old ranch roper that someone did a poor job of restoring.  Reason I did was because I liked the tree and really just wanted to strip one down and re do it to broaden my knowledge.  Someone re skirted it with some really light flimsy leather and replaced the rear jockey with the same.  Thats gotta go.  My question is what weight leather should I use for the skirts and jockey and where does one buy it?  The seat is good thick fairly nice looking leather so I'm leaving it for now.  This will be my day working saddle so looks arent extremly important just want it neat, tough, and usable.  Mainly just skirts rear jockey leathers and fenders and shearling is what I plan to replace.  Any advice on where to get those items would be greatly appreciated also curious on what nails to use.  Thanks in advance.

[Squilchuck]

Use high quality skirting leather - Herman Oak and Wicket and Craig are the best.  Weaver also sells Chahin which seems to get some good reviews.  Weight (thickness) might depend on the rest of the saddle: 11/13 or13/15 Oz.  Use bark tanned shearing  I buy from Montana Leather, Hide House, and Weaver.    Get a copy of Stohlman's saddle-making book from Tandy or Harry Adams book to show you how to do saddle work. I use self-tapping cabinet screws, lathe nails, or sometimes blue tacks  --John

[Josh Ashman]

I agree with what John has noted above and will only add that drywall screws are also a good choice. I use galv box nails and blue tacks to some degree, but the drywall screws are handy and easy to get back out when needed. Ol toot also mentioned them a while back and he has much more experience than I do. 

Good luck!

[j20]

How is skirting leather purchased? Do you have to buy a whole side when going through the sources you named?  Could the fenders and jockeys be made out of the same leather? I dont see why not just want to get it right. 

[Josh Ashman]

Skirting is generally sold by the side, which is what you'd want. Yes, the fenders and jockeys would be cut out of the same leather and you should be able to get them from one side. Where the pieces are cut from the hide is critically important. Pick up the books John mentioned above and they will give you a bunch of insight on where to cut what and things to look for and think about when cutting saddle parts. 

[oltoot]

Leather is not plywood and if you are not building an entire saddle, you may find yourself wishing you had 2 sides instead of just one. That said, one side should have more than enough square footage for your needs though perhaps not yield the ideal places for some of the pieces, get some of the mentioned books/dvds that give you suggested cutting layouts and study those against the "typical" side of leather in terms of things like firmness, weight, stretchiness, flexibility, and then make your decision. NOTE: The Chahin from Weaver is a good buy but picking a source where the minimums fit your budget may lead you to try other things.  

[j20]

I'm not necessarily looking for a "good buy" and I'm fine with buying a whole side I'm just completely new to this and didn't know how leather in that quantity was purchased. I'm going for quality that will hold up I dont mind spending a little to get it.  Just from the sources mentioned above I'm already leaning towards the wicket and craig selection. 

[j20]

Well slight change of plans, now I'm going with a zach white 13-15 skirting side.  Plan on laying out my skirts, rear jockeys, leathers, and fenders similar to the layout in stohlmans book and tracing and cutting. Is there any problems with doing it this way?  Also is the leather I selected the best choice for stirrup leathers and fenders or are there better options for that leather?

[cowboycolonel]

Gonna be awfully heavy fenders

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

I agree with Cowboy Colonel, at 13-15 oz, the fenders may be too heavy.  For stirrup leathers, I prefer that weight, but you wouldn't need that heavy of leather for the fenders, or the skirts, depending on the method of construction.  It will just add unnecessary weight and your fenders will not have much flexibility.  Heavy does not necessarily equal good.  Sometimes it just means heavy.  I would be apprehensive about ordering just one side and making the parts you want to make.  It is nice having a variety to choose from when cutting saddle parts, and I would not want to be limited to one side.  Or maybe you could buy your stirrup leathers pre-cut, and cut the rest of the parts from a side of 11-13.  Or, if funds are not an issue, buy a side of 13/15 for your stirrup leathers (and have plenty for future repairs of other saddles)and one side of 11/13, most of which you will use for the rest of your parts.

[j20]

I do already have some pre cut stirrup leathers from Colorado saddlery leftover from a previous project that I ended up not needing them on, so that sounds like a pretty good idea. I guess I was just thinking thick equals good and should have done some more reading first.

[Big Sioux Saddlery]

34 minutes ago, j20 said:

I guess I was just thinking thick equals good and should have done some more reading first.

Very common assumption.  There are parts and pieces in saddlery and harness that need to be heavy, and parts that don't.  Some of the heaviest leather available is tanned out of this country, and is real garbage.  It is way more important to buy the best quality leather you can afford, than to buy the heaviest.   Top quality leather will last a lifetime and take a lot of abuse.  Poor quality is garbage from the start and 5 years down the road is still garbage, no matter how much oil or fancy conditioners are applied.  If you rope and work cattle with your equipment, it receives much more abuse than that of a once-a-week trail rider. Use good stuff.  Best of luck with your project.

[Ken Nelson]

There is a reason why most saddle makers that build saddles for cowboys that use them really hard, cut Herman Oak. I build for working cowboys and a lot of them compete both roping and ranch rodeos.  I am talking about men that ride nearly every day and long days in all kinds of weather.  They have wrecks on occasion and bad wrecks every once in a while.  Hermann Oak holds up  with proper care better than any other leather I know of.  I have used Wickett & Craig (years ago), Teneria  and some bargain leathers for stuff that don't get used much.  NOW,   I use Herman Oak and only Herman Oak for saddles.    My cowboy saddles are all 13-15 oz and I figure just over 2 sides for each saddle.  I use some 11-13 for breast collars and misc stuff.   Light weight saddles will not hold up for the people I am building for.  

I have had really good service from Panhandle leather in Amarillo, TX.  They will sell you 1 hide or a pallet.    They have the best woolskins I have found anywhere, but I haven't tried everyone either.   They also have the tan thread that Ferdco used to call Peasant Beige and it is really good thread.

Good luck on your project.  I hope you block your skirts, a lot of production saddle  aren't.

Ken

[cowboycolonel]

I agree with Ken for sure/  If you don't block and plug the skirts then you are wasting time, effort and leather.  Do it to last!

[j20]

That's actually what I'm trying to read up on now, how to properly block haven't heard of plugging till now.  As of now I don't have a good grasp of it but I'll get there. This whole thing is a learning experience but I think I will greatly benefit from it in the long run.  I did notice panhandle has 13/15 skirting bellies.  Where would these come in handy?  Wouldn't the belly have a lot of stretch to it? Their sides are very reasonably priced so that's looking good now.  This project is ever changing but I want quality that's why I keep asking questions to you guys who have been there done that. I do work from saddle though not daily when I am saddled up I can't afford to be tied off and have a saddle failure.

Edited June 30, 2017 by j20

[oltoot]

Bellies would be the place to cut many of the pieces you are not planning on replacing so the short answer would be that you don't need them for the saddle, itself. Plugging (IMHO) is an excuse for not having enough leather that is heavy enough for skirts but plugged is better than too light and not plugged. You have seen enough reasons for having 2 sides to work with and planning to have a lot left over for the next project. Blocked vs unblocked is a no-brainer (IMHO) rough cut skirts first, block, then mark the final lines, such as the bottom line, meeting in the back the way you prefer and aligning perfectly with the front jockeys on the seat, then make the final cuts after the blocking has dried. Buy woolskins large enough to be able to lay out the skirt linings properly and be OK with having plenty left over but resist the temptation to line things such as breast collars or rifle scabbards as sheep wool plus sweat and other grime that is attracted to wet (or oily) places equals extra abrasion. Breast collars that fit and are adjusted properly don't need padding. If you feel the need to line a breast collar, opt for something that will result in smooth, continuous contact such as grain side out latigo  or light weight veg tan (a candidate for the skirting bellies you will have if you buy 2 sides). 

[j20]

What are some different methods out there for blocking and then holding in place to dry?  I still have not found anything on plugging so don't know what that is yet. 

[cowboycolonel]

Dear J,

Stohlman's encyclopedia can explain this better and more succinctly than any of us could on a forum such as this.  Tandy sells the three-volume set for a pretty good price, but IMHO you only need Vols 1 and 2, as Vol 3 is a variation on a theme, with 1 and 2 laying out the basics that you need.  When I block my skirts, I wet the line thoroughly and then use a French Shoeing hammer and crease the skirt into the tree.  Then I tack the skirt into place with a 3/4 inch wire nail.  Put these nails about every inch amd a half to two inches all along the skirt EXCEPT where the stirrup leathers will run.  DO Not Block This Area.  When the skirt is dry, go back and pull the nails.  Lay the skirts out and rough fit your plugs.  I disagree with Toot on this, as you need a firm edge to help hold the shape of the skirt, but do not need all that weight and firmness under the tree at the top of the bars.

I'd stay away from "bellies".  Buy the Sides and you'll end up with enough belly leather to fulfill any need you might have. 

When you take the saddle apart, look to see what the last guy did.  I've seen putative plugs using 5-7 oz leather which makes me wonder why they even bothered, and I've see skirts fully backed with 9-10 oz stuff, which adds SO MUCH WEIGHT!!!

Who built your saddle originallyl?

If you're still looking for sources, you might5 look at The Hide House in Napa, California or Goliger's in Ventura.  Both sell Hermann Oak, which as you will hear often, is consistently good grade. 

[j20]

I was actually looking at downloading stohlmans vol. 1 from leathercraft library.  I may do that this weekend.  I have not been able to find a makers mark anywhere on this saddle.

[Ken Nelson]

I know of a real good saddle maker in West Texas that lines his billets, flanks and breast collars with Harness leather as he feels it resists sweat better than latigo.  I use latigo on mine and line billets, flank cinches and breast collars every time .  I feel it is a quality factor.  Good point on the sheepskins being large enough to properly lay out your skirts.  Panhandle's woolskins are all  13 FT + and good quality.

Harry Adams Book  Saddlemakers Shop Manual covers blocking Skirts to the tree very well.   Harry also covered leather selection very well on laying out patterns.  

I plug my skirts pretty heavy.  But my saddles weigh in at about 40 + also.

[j20]

Where are some good places to purchase tools from and if you were just going to have a few basic tools what would they be?  I have tried some tools such as punches and rivet setters from tandy both were junk and I have since replaced them with tools from Springfield leather those seem to be pretty good so far. 

[cowboycolonel]

That is a tough one without having an idea of your budget for tools.  I believe that money spent on good tools doesn't count, so I look for the best -- not necessarily the most expensive. Gotta have a good head knife and know how to sharpen it.  Swivel knife if you're going to do any tooling.  Dividers for measuring. Pointed awl, diamond awl and assorted needles.  Maul for stamping and tooling and quality stamps to do the job you'd be proud of.  A good source to start is Barry King in Sheridan.  Hackbarth for some stamps, Osborne makes a head knife for starters, and you can move up if you want.  Hope this helps.

[j20]

Im looking at awls and there are so many, you say pointed and diamond and even with it narrowed down to that I'm still finding quite a few to chose from.  Which ones best suite what I'm doing?  I will be doing no tooling.  I think I'm going with the osborne head knife for now.

[480volt]

Bob Douglas makes very good awl blades and hafts, and many other tools as well. Not cheap, but extremely well made.

[j20]

Not necessarily looking for brand suggestions I'm going with king or osborne.  Im more looking for exactly what awls I need size wise.