Capability of hand crank singer 15-91

[TrentonP]

I have ran across a Singer 15-91 on eBay which has been converted to hand crank. It seems to be for a decent price and well within my budget. I have read posts on this forum regarding this machine but not any which have been converted. This brings me to my question. What thickness of veg tan is this machine capable of being that it is converted to hand crank? The seller provided some images of leather the machine has sewn which he claims to be 18oz. It appears to have worked well.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Powerful-Singer-15-91-Hand-Crank-Leather-Sewing-Machine-Custom-Hardwood-Base-/322580484314?hash=item4b1b4b90da:g:~vUAAOSwbtVZXaKQ

[Yetibelle]

I will see if I can beat Wiz to the punch here.

Sorry its not a real leather sewing machine.  While it may work for really thin projects, it does not take the thread that you really need to sew leather like at least a #69

See Wizcraft's post on leather sewing machines. 

 

[Yetibelle]

Also $350 is a lot for a 15-91.  you should be able to get one from CL for under $150 most of the time.  Plus they kind of wrecked it putting that hand-wheel on the way they did.

 

[makitmama]

I have used a Singer 66 for 5oz total, using a hand crank. That was a belt with inlaid snake. I used a Zeus Machines Pfaff 130 with an upgraded motor for 7 oz total, but that really pushed it.

 

[Yetibelle]

Sure the old Singer home machines are really tough and can sew just about anything most of the time.  I have a few of them myself, however if your telling me you have $350 to spend on a vintage machine, I would not recommend that 15-91, you should look for a Singer 111w155 or a Singer 29-4.  If you want to stick with a vintage home machine look for a Singer 201-2 it is a little bigger than the 15-91 with the same direct drive motor.  If you like the hand wheel option look for the Singer 29-4 machine they can use a treadle or a hand wheel.  So many options..

 

 

[Wizcrafts]

Despite the cast iron frame and steel shafts, that 15 class is just a domestic sewing machine. As such, it is limited to a maximum thread size of #69 bonded nylon (11 pound test), using a tiny #18 needle. This thread can barely hold a zipper on a vest. Putting a real gun into a holster sewn with such thin thread will cause the stitches to come apart!

The proper thread size for a stack of 3 pieces of 6 ounce leather would be #277, which is 4 times the diameter of what a 15 class can handle. This thread is rated at 44 pounds strength per lockstitch. The needle used to sew with #277 thread is a size 25/200, which resembles a roofing nail. The machines used to sew real holsters and sheathes, plus dog collars and horse tack are huge Cowboy and Cobra and Techsew branded 441 type machines. The eat 15-91s for lunch and spit out the left overs.

[mikesc]

re What domestic or "not designed for leather machines can do" , question for you wiz.
I've been offered a Singer 31:32 ( the one with reverse via small button next to the stitch length controller )..it is a treadle.VGC ( according to seller ) and I can get it for under $100.00 USD..but it is around a 3 hour round trip drive from me..and I'm busy, ..But ..it is calling to me ..:)
So, to know if it is worth adding to the machines I already have , .What can it sew max thickness in chrome tan and in veg tan ? can it be fitted with a roller foot ? what size threads can it run max, top and bottom ?
Opinion(s) welcome..sorry to "semi-highjack" the thread with questions about what is originally an industrial ( old ) tailoring machine..move this to a separate thread if you think it should be.

[dikman]

I have a 201K (similar, just a little bit later model) with the original Singer handcrank. It takes a bit of effort to get through thicker leather (I would say 4mm/10 oz is the comfortable max.) Plus with that homemade handcrank you have to turn it backwards compared to the Singer (geared) crank. A nice writeup, but a bit over-the-top in my opinion, and way to much money for what it is.

[Wizcrafts]

When I got into leather work and started getting orders, I decided to leap into machine sewing over hand sewing. I got scammed time after time by dealers who knew little or nothing about sewing vegetable tanned leather projects (e.g., holsters, sheathes, Police gear). By the time I found a truly capable "harness" stitcher, I had acquired 6 under-performing industrial machines. The first sad machine was a Singer 96k40, which is similar to the 31 series everybody is asking me about. That machine was sold as a real leather sewing machine. It had a green top wooden table, 1/2 hp clutch motor and steel k-legs frame. What was sad about the machine was that it was just a cloth garment sewing machine. I bought every type of foot and feed dog/throat plate set, including a full roller foot conversion. I timed, clkearanced and retimed. I tried longer needles, bent the shuttle driver, stood on my head and did cartwheels in front of the G-damn p.o.s.

Despite pouring hundreds of dollars into the iron body machine, it could barely sew a little over 3/16" of soft leather. I used the roller foot to sew a leather vest made from a Tandy pattern pack. I went through a pack of 10 needles in the process. This was done using #69 bonded thread, which was the largest thread it would clear in the bobbin and shuttle.

Fast forward to here and now and people still think they can use garment quality machines to sew holsters. So sad. All of the experience that has been shared on this forum over the years has fallen on blind eyes and deaf ears.

This is a leather sewing machine

Here is a similar real leather sewing machine

This is a real leather sewing machine from the turn of the 20th Century, and still made today.

Here is one of the finest leather sewing machines you will ever see or read about!

This heavy duty machine is popular with people sewing leather straps where big tooth marks on the bottom aren't a problem

This is NOT a leather sewing machine ! It is meant to sew cloth garments.

This is a tailoring machine, as I learned.

[LumpenDoodle2]

To also put it into perspective.  

I bought a lovely old late 1800's domestic Singer sewing machine cabinet.  It cost me £45.   There was a very old, very worn Singer 15K crammed into it.  

I junked the machine, because no-one I knew wanted to take it away, and it was free.   If I thought I could have got $300+ for it, I would have done it up, and sold it.    

Buying your first leather sewing machine can be accompanied by a steep learning curve.   Not helped, as Wizcrafts points out, by sellers who either know nowt, or will swear blind that their 'heavy duty semi industrial Singer 99K machine will sew 3/4" veg tan all day.

You did the right thing, and checked here first.

[Cascabel]

  Always bear in mind that there is no such thing as an "Industrial Strength" machine, and just because it is made of cast iron, and painted black does not make it a real industrial machine.  Many of them are Grandma's old sewing machine that showed up at a yard sale.   EBAY and Craigslist sellers lie !!   The old domestic machines are excellent within their limitations, but none of them are real "Leather" or "Industrial" machines.    A simple way to tell is that if the motor is the size of a man's fist, and attached to the back of the machine, it is a domestic machine.  Real industrial machines have a motor the about the size of your head mounted underneath the table. And real industrial machines are NEVER designed to fold down into the cabinet like a domestic.   They are much too heavy !!

 

    Another consideration is that the thickness a machine can handle is dictated by the fact that MOST, but NOT ALL machines release the thread tension as the foot rises either by the thickness of the material being sewn, or when climbing over a thick section like a seam.   This can cause skipped stitches and a host of other problems, such as tangles on the back side.  This applies to both domestic and industrial models.   This is a feature of the design of most machines, allowing easy removal of the work from under the foot when raising the foot manually when done sewing.   Some machines, like my Singer 42-5 can sew as much thickness as you can jam under the foot, as it does not have this tension release feature.

[TrentonP]

Thank you to everyone who replied. I did not expect the seller's listing to be anywhere near accurate based off the many posts I've read on this forum. I have gained a lot of information from reading your posts Wiz. With that being said I have read a lot of your recommendations. I am looking for a hand powered machine though and I have not seen much on them. Which would you recommend in that category?

[Wizcrafts]

1 minute ago, TrentonP said:

Thank you to everyone who replied. I did not expect the seller's listing to be anywhere near accurate based off the many posts I've read on this forum. I have gained a lot of information from reading your posts Wiz. With that being said I have read a lot of your recommendations. I am looking for a hand powered machine though and I have not seen much on them. Which would you recommend in that category?

You're correct; there are only a few hand operated real leather sewing machines. I'll list a few and others will add to the group.

Hand operated heavy leather stitchers.

• The Tippmann Boss (one of our advertisers). This machine has a push pull lever on the right side. It uses the same large cylindrical bobbins and long needles as the 441 type machines and can sew up to 3/4 inch of leather. Everything depends on how strong your right arm is and how long it can operate the lever. You can buy directly from Tippmann and get factory support, or buy it from Tandy Leather stores.
• The Cowboy Outlaw is a brand new clone of the Tippmann Boss, made in China by CowboySew. It uses the same bobbins and needles as the Boss, but has beefed up cranks, frame and bearings. I don't know anything else about it right now. I'll add the expected price when I learn it.
• Somebody has converted a Cowboy CB3200 into a hand operated stitcher by adding a Barney handle to the flywheel. I'll bet that Toledo Industrial can do the same for you. This machines sews up to 1" of leather.
• The Luberto Cub is a rotary hand cranked heavy stitcher that also has a Barney wheel on the flywheel. It also uses 441 type needles and bobbins. They are few and far between and are built in the USA by Tony Luberto.
• The Gritzner/Frobana curved needle sole stitcher has a rotary wheel on the right side. It has a blade ion the bottom that cuts a sewing channel and moves the work.
• Junker and Ruh sole stitchers have a push pull lever and sew along the edge.

[TrentonP]

I will look into these options. I can not see myself sewing more than 18oz of leather. Most of my work is hoslters with the occasional belt. Hand stitching belts is not something I enjoy undertaking. I have been leaning towards the Tippmann Boss due to the availability although 3/4" of sewing ability is much more than I will ever need. Are there any you recommend over others?

[Wizcrafts]

If there is a Tandy Leather store within driving distance, why not call them to see if they have a Boss stitcher in stock that you can try out? They have everything there in one place: scrap leather, needles, thread, machine. Unless you are able to physically try out a Boss, you won't know if you will get along with it. These machines are tempermental until you learn to operate them. I do know that you can't half cock the lever and expect a good outcome.

Personally, I would prefer a rotary wheel than a push lever on a hand driven sewing machine. I remember Bob Kovar, owner of Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines, posting about a Cowboy head that they converted into a hand operated machine. It had a Barney wheel on the flywheel.

Let's see here: 18 ounces of leather is equal to 9/32 of an inch. That is well within the capability of any upholstery class, walking foot machine, most of which handle #138 thread. Some newer builds have an extra large hook that allows you to sew with #207 thread (33 pounds test). That is really the minimum size you'd need to securely stitch a holster or strap that's 18 ounces thick. The Cowboy CB341 and Cobra Model 26 can do that. So can a GA5 type machine, like the Cowboy CB2500 and Techsew 3650. I'm sure someone could add a Barney handle to one of those machines so you can hand crank it.

[Sheilajeanne]

Yes, my local Tandy store has a Tippman boss all set up so people can try it out, and see if it's the right machine for them.

[LumpenDoodle2]

12 hours ago, TrentonP said:

I will look into these options. I can not see myself sewing more than 18oz of leather. Most of my work is hoslters with the occasional belt. Hand stitching belts is not something I enjoy undertaking. I have been leaning towards the Tippmann Boss due to the availability although 3/4" of sewing ability is much more than I will ever need. Are there any you recommend over others?

Major advantage of a Tippman Boss, is the space saving, and it's so simple to work on.   The disadvantage is it need one hand to operate, but you soon adapt yourself to it. 

I have a Juki LS341 for sewing belts, an old Joy upholstery flatbed for webbing, and canvas, and the Boss handles anything too thick for them.  I find it a bit of hard work for sewing anything too big, but it's paid for itself for sewing the odd over thick leathe strap or holster fitting, and doesn't get in the way when not in use.